My Thoughts on UFC... What're yours? (Long)

M

Matt Wallis

New member
Well, after being cable TV-less for most of my life and never getting to see much UFC, I was lent a tape of highlight fights from the first 3 years of UFC competition. That's right, I watched 6 hours of UFC in two days!:eek:

First, here are my biases in evaluating UFC... I have a first dan in traditional (i.e. no point competition sparring, ITF style) Taekwondo. I am currently studying medieval European MA consisting of longsword, dagger and grappling/wrestling from 14th and 15th century German manuals (in translation). I have never fought or sparred full contact (I know, I know... It's a problem I want to remedy) or really done any competition sparring.

So what did I think? Well, the first year was the best season and after that it seemed to go downhill. It was only in the first competition or two that I thought we really got to see what striking and grappling arts could do. It had the most look of being like a real life "Bloodsport" and seemed the most "no holds barred."

Here's my thoughs on grappling. In the first year, Gracie dominated, using his BJJ. In the years after the grappling tended to suck. Here's why, IMHO. Gracie used his BJJ as a martial art. He had trained it as his way of attacking and defeating his opponents. After that it seemed that people gappled for only one of two reasons. Either it was to defend against someone bear-hugging or tackling them, or they would simply go to a clinch/grapple to keep from getting hit. Once there, they would continue to "wrestle" even when they could pull back and strike. I saw times when one guy was clinging to the wire mesh fence with his back to his opponent. The other guy (often someone who was supposed to be a power hitter) would simply hold on to the first guy in a bear hug or clinch. Why not, if you're such a power hitter, step back and pummel the guy in the kidneys or side of the head while his back was turned? Ridiculous!

Which brings me to the striking. Despite the fact that Gracie dominated in the first couple of competitions, some decent martial artists showed how effective good striking could be. I saw one guy take out a much larger sumo type guy with an overhead knifehand to the face. It floored the bigger opponent. Literally sat him on his @$$. And I saw very effective kicks. Low roundhouses to the leg which "chopped down" bigger opponents. And I even saw an effective high kick used twice (in different matches). It was a front kick to the chest. Both times it lifted the opponent off his feet and threw him backwards. Both times it was a very quick kick that left little openings. You're telling me if that fight was in a bar where the guy was going to crash into a bunch of stools and tables and come down on a tile floor that wouldn't be an effective technique? Don't you believe it. Elbows also seemed very effective, though in later matches I thought they had become over-rated.

Overall, this is what I took away from it. You have to know how to grapple. Because when people don't want to get hit (which they don't :p ) they will instinctivly go to the clinch, or tackle you. But you only wrestle so that you can get out of a clinch! You need power hitting to take someone out.

Well, what do you folks think?

Regards,
Matt Wallis
 
hey Matt, I have seen almost every UFC. Your right, they went downhill after the first few because of additional rules concernng using elbows when someone is on the ground, wearing padded gloves etc. I also agree that you need to learn how to grapple but in a real fight the cement/ground can be very unforgiving. A fight should be finished standing up if possible.

Did you see the fight between Kimo and Gracie? Gracie could not return because of the beating Kimo gave him. Gracie was able to grab Kimo's ponytail and get an advantage and ultimatley defeat him.
 
I did see that fight. I thought the same. In fact, it looked like Kimo was going to pull out the win until Gracie got ahold of his hair. Anyway, to me, Gracie was the exception rather than the rule. He was different in that he had trained to defeat people with grappling. Most of the rest (there seemed to be a few exceptions, like Severn) seemed to grapple more as a cop-out, because they couldn't really fight.

And someone answer me this question... Why is Shamrock a UFC "star"? Seemed like he got his but kicked, at least in the highlight fights I saw. I mean, I'm sure he could wipe the floor up with me:D , but compared to the rest of the UFC fighters, I wasn't impressed. Same with the so-called "Tank" Abbot. Looked like a big fat guy who was powerful, but had absolutely no skill or conditioning. Being fat and huge may mean you win fights in a bar, but it doesn't make you a good fighter.

Regards,
Matt
 
"Being fat and huge may mean you win fights in a bar, but it doesn't make you a good fighter. "

If winning fights doesn't make you a good fighter, what does pray tell?
 
Winning with skill.
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What does that mean? Winning while looking pretty? Skill is nothing without physical attributes. Fighting ability is a combination of different elements like physical attributes (strength, speed, timing, CV conditioning, etc.), mechanical skills (techniques), strategy, experience and so forth. Any given individual will have some strengths and some weaknesses - the fact that one wins for one reason and not another does not make him better - simply winning does.
Did you see the fight between Kimo and Gracie? Gracie could not return because of the beating Kimo gave him. Gracie was able to grab Kimo's ponytail and get an advantage and ultimatley defeat him.
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Kimo Leopoldo did not give Royce Gracie a beating. Gracie could not continue due to dehydration. As for the ponytail, too bad. Why didn't Leopoldo shave it off and show up again? At the end of the fight, Leopoldo was the one who was about to have his elbow popped off, not Gracie.
I also agree that you need to learn how to grapple but in a real fight the cement/ground can be very unforgiving. A fight should be finished standing up if possible.
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Yes. A fight should be terminated by standing up - by evasion and escape. The one big advantage of standing up is retaining the mobility - to be able to run away. Staying and fighting standing up is not inherently safer than fighting on the ground UNLESS you exercise that mobility.
BTW, the top dog of NHB fighting shows is no longer the UFC, and it hasn't been the UFC for a long while. Most in the know consider Japan's "Pride" as the best NHB event (allows elbows, stomping, knees on the ground, etc.). It pays big money to the fighters (compared to the peanuts from the UFC) and attracts the top talent like Vanderlei Silva, Kazushi Sakuraba, Mario Sperry and Igor Vovchanchyn.

Lastly, the early UFC shows you wrote about are dynasaurs. Almost all of today's NHB competitors cross train in striking and grappling (prime example - Vanderlei Silva - BJJ & Muay Thai).

If you want to see top dogs in NHB

See Kazushi Sakuraba: http://www.sherdog.com/videos/sakuraba/sakurabavideo.shtm

and see the guy who beat him - twice: http://www.sherdog.com/videos/vanderleisilva/vanderleisilvavideo.shtm

On the bottom, you can download a zipped MPEG file (high or low quality) showing the highlights of their victories.

Skorzeny
 
"What does that mean? Winning while looking pretty?"

Uh, no. It means winning because your skill at fighting is better than that of your opponent.

Alright, I figured my point was pretty obvious but apparently I was mistaken. I will try and explain again. When I said, "Being fat and huge may mean you win fights in a bar, but it doesn't make you a good fighter." I meant the guy in question (Tank Abbot) seemed to be winning simply because of his size and for no other reason. When he fought someone of the same size, or someone smaller but with actual skill he lost. Hence my comment that he might win fights in a bar (where he theoretically would pick fights with people who are smaller and have no skill at fighting), but that doesn't mean he's a good fighter (since when he meets up with people the same size or who really know how to fight he loses).

"Kimo Leopoldo did not give Royce Gracie a beating."

I'll go rewatch the tape. But it sure looked to me like he did!

"As for the ponytail, too bad. Why didn't Leopoldo shave it off and show up again?"

Don't ask me, ask him. I think me and "aep" both thought that it was a dumb weakness to go into the ring with. I know I did, anyway. Didn't seem like either of us were saying it was unfair.

"Staying and fighting standing up is not inherently safer than fighting on the ground UNLESS you exercise that mobility."

Agreed (in a street fight)! But what do you think of my example of the guy in UFC clinging to the wall with the other guy clinging to his back? Seemed useless.

"Lastly, the early UFC shows you wrote about are dynasaurs. Almost all of today's NHB competitors..."

I know you said "NHB" competitors and not "UFC", but my impression of the UFC was that the level of the competitors went _down_ as time went on. Maybe it's different in other NHB events.

Can you rent tapes of "Pride"? If not, what are the other NHB events you can get here?

Thanks,
Matt
 
Uh, no. It means winning because your skill at fighting is better than that of your opponent.
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That's not inherently better than because of attributes. For example, Rickson Gracie is not as physically gifted as some NHB athletes. Yet, because of his superb techniques and timing, he beats his opponents. At the same time, Frank Shamrock (Ken Shamrock's adoptive brother) is not what you'd call a smooth technician. But because of his incredible conditioning and physical attributes, he beats his opponents. Who is to say that one fighter is "better" than the other. These are two different approaches to the victory in the ring (or the cage).
I know you said "NHB" competitors and not "UFC", but my impression of the UFC was that the level of the competitors went _down_ as time went on. Maybe it's different in other NHB events.
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There was a period in the UFC when enough competitors wisened up on ground fighting to be able to stall, but not mount enough of an offense from there. UFC is changed quite a bit nowadays and has some superb fighters, including technicians like Murillo Bustamante (trains with Mario Sperry).
Can you rent tapes of "Pride"? If not, what are the other NHB events you can get here?
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I don't think that Pride tapes are widely available in the US. You can definitely buy them (VHS & DVD) from the website I listed above. Pride is also on DirectTV pay-per-view. There are other events like KOTC (King of the Cage - US) and Shooto (aka Shootfighting - Japan).

Check out the clips above and many others available on that site - including Rickson Gracie (supposedly the best of them all):
http://www.sherdog.com/videos/ricksongracie/ricksongracievideo.shtm

Skorzeny
 
Hey Skorzeny,

"Who is to say that one fighter is "better" than the other. These are two different approaches to the victory in the ring"

I understand what you're saying. Certainly, size does matter. But I guess I still think that fighters who train for skill and conditioning are "better" fighters than people who are just huge and fat. However, I suppose I am narrowly defining "better" as "more skilled".

"There was a period in the UFC when enough competitors wisened up on ground fighting to be able to stall, but not mount enough of an offense from there."

I tell you, that statement totally sums up what I was seeing! I guess I will definitely have to check out some more recent stuff.

"Check out the clips above and many others available on that site"

Thanks for the links.

Matt
 
As far as the the Gracie & Kimo I was there at the match (Talked my way in to a ushering job seating Japanese tourist and got to see the whole thing for free). As I remember Kimo got in a couple good shots in to Gracie's ribs. When Gracie was going back to the locker room after he got Kimo to submit (damn ponytail)I saw Gracie holding his side pretty hard while sitting down and his corner team were arguing back and forth and Gracie tried to stand up and couldnt. Well that's my little two cents to the story!
 
what makes a fighter good???

in my experience, the guy who wins the fight is the better fighter (at least that day). you don't have to have the most training, or have the best technique, or look the coolest.

don't believe me? next time you get your a$$ kicked, try convincing your buddies, girlfriend, and onlookers that even though you are a missing most of your teeth and are bleeding from every orface on your face that you are still the superior fighter.
 
rusher:

Since you were there, perhaps you can tell me - who was the one who gave up the fight? Who was the one about to have his elbow broken off? Who is the one collapsing to the canvas at the end of the fight?

Undoubtedly Kimo Leopoldo got a few shots in on Royce Gracie. But who won the fight at the end? For Kimo Leopoldo to "tap out" and then to come back to brag when Royce Gracie could not continue on the tournament is idiotic and egostical - if the fight had continued on, he'd have been carried out on a stretcher and definitely unable to gloat.

stinger:

As I mentioned before, many different elements come together to make one a "good fighter." I did leave one element out though - luck. Sometimes, even with the superior physical attributes (which include not just size, but strength, speed, power, balance, etc. etc.), superior skill and all that, one slip of foot can turn you into a loser (with most of your teeth missing like you wrote).

I think it was Chuck Yeager who said "I'd rather be lucky than good any day."

Fights are very chancy even for the superbly confident. Another good reason to avoid and evade them aside from legal reasons and a host of other good reasons.

Skorzeny
 
"don't believe me? next time you get your a$$ kicked, try convincing your buddies, girlfriend, and onlookers that even though you are a missing most of your teeth and are bleeding from every orface on your face that you are still the superior fighter."

You can't be serious? Have you actually read any of this thread, or did you just take one thing that was said, misinterpret it, and then latch onto it with your simplistic logic?

Obviously if I, who has some training and skill, "get my ass kicked", the guy who did it would be a "better" fighter, or at least tougher. But just because someone kicks someone elses but doesn't make them a good fighter. A big huge guy can suck at fighting (i.e., have no stamina, not be able to throw a good punch, no basic wrestling skills), and still be able to kick someone's but simply because they pick on someone smaller, etc. That wouldn't make them a "good fighter."

Matt
 
Matt- I think you're suffering from martial artist's denial. I suffered from it for a long time too. I won't get into too many details about the where or why, but I got into a fight with this fat loser kid back in high school. At this point I had my 1st degree black in TKD. We got into a clinch and I ducked one of his punches and he grabbed me and raised his knee right into my nose. It wasn't broken, and it didn't hurt, but it bled out of both nostrils like crazy. At this point the people watching stopped the fight. I'm really glad that I lost a real fight because I completely changed the way that I train now. No, I don't eat Big Macs everyday like the fat kid did ;) I now train to fight more like Vanderlei does. I quit doing the traditional martial arts, I kept the mental teachings but now I train to fight savagely. The fat kid got lucky, just like Chuck Yeager said. No skill, no talent, but he won the day. And I'm a better man now because of it.

Dan
 
I get the feeling people here are trying to pigeon hole me as someone who thinks being big and tough doesn't count. Or maybe that I think "looking pretty" equals being a good fighter and not "looking pretty" equals being a bad fighter. I have never said any such thing. Go back a reread what I wrote.

"Matt- I think you're suffering from martial artist's denial."

What is it I'm denying?

Regards,
Matt
 
Matt- I'm not trying to pigeonhole you, you said:
But just because someone kicks someone elses but doesn't make them a good fighter. A big huge guy can suck at fighting (i.e., have no stamina, not be able to throw a good punch, no basic wrestling skills), and still be able to kick someone's but simply because they pick on someone smaller, etc. That wouldn't make them a "good fighter."
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If they win fights, it does make them good fighters. You don't have to have skill or conditioning to be a good fighter. If you're 5'5" and you have zero fighting skills but you beat the crap out of a 6'0" wrestler, you are a good fighter. If you win consistently, you are obviously good at it. There are people I know personally that can win fights when they are really angry. "Martial artists denial" is when I think that martial artists hate to believe that some skill-less chump could smash their face in.
 
I'm semi-trained, 5'9", 162 lbs.

If I walk up behind Rickson Gracie and beat him over the head with a bat, I've won a "fight". Does that make me a "good" fighter, and him a "bad" fighter?

From what I've seen, amongst tough-guy "fighters", the fight is usually decided by who hit the other one when they weren't prepared, or were too drunk to defend themselves.

The UFC and other competitions, no matter how few rules there are, are more duels than fights. In a fight, you don't always know when you're going to be in one, who with, how many, what they bring to the fight, etc., etc. I think the most valuable thing any "martial artist" should learn is situational awareness - don't ever willingly put yourself in a potential losing situation; the results can be permanent.

The idea of rules, weight classes, etc. is to make the competition as much skill vs. skill as possible. The real world doesn't work this way. You have to beat whatever they have in a fight, not just out-skill them.

And, in defense of the "skill-less chumps", I will have to say that facing an untrained opponent can sometimes be harder than a trained one - you never know what to expect from someone who doesn't have any idea what they're doing next.
 
Danger Dave-

If I walk up behind Rickson Gracie and beat him over the head with a bat, I've won a "fight". Does that make me a "good" fighter, and him a "bad" fighter? From what I've seen, amongst tough-guy "fighters", the fight is usually decided by who hit the other one when they weren't prepared, or were too drunk to defend themselves.
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What you're describing here is more of an attack than a fight. Most dirty street brawlers would much prefer an attack than a fight. Hitting someone over the head with a bat from behind and going hand-to-hand are two different things.

And, in defense of the "skill-less chumps", I will have to say that facing an untrained opponent can sometimes be harder than a trained one - you never know what to expect from someone who doesn't have any idea what they're doing next.
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I agree heartily.
 
My complaint with the UFC and its brethren, is that it doesn't give a good example of what really works on the street. It works in the ring, one on one, with no death (hopefully) involved. On the street there can be 1-20+ guys, bare knuckle or with rocks, chains, bottles etc.

The reason Gracie won the first couple UFCs is that he had superior skill in grappling than 90+ % of his opponents. He was able to take them out of their element and dominate them. When pitted against someone of like skill (Ken Shamrock who did not really try to win), he wasn't able to do anything other than lie there for 30 + minutes. This is in the first couple, before Royce stopped competing.

The fight with Kimo came down to Kimo not trying to grapple with Royce like Royce wanted, and it tired Royce out, not because Kimo was better or more skilled, he just didn't want to go to the ground and fight Gracie's game.

The UFC has gotten far away from where it began ie style against style, no weight limits etc.

Now you have "cross trained" fighters of shoot-grappling-thai-ju-kwon-ryu that are huge and muscular and lack technique. That is why the bouts in the recent UFCs have been the big guy holding the fence and the other big guy clinching with him. I still thought Maurice Smith's kick to Mark Colemans head was really a good, strategic move :)

Also I think (opinion alert!) that the people who participate in the UFC are not concerned with the other aspects of the martial arts like character and spiritual development.

I hope I never get into a fight, for money or blood, so take this with a grain of salt

I am not saying they are worthless, but lets take them for what they are - entertainment, not a how to guide.
 
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