My plan of action. Anything you'd add/do differently?

[Pond James Pond]

I recently pulled apart two lots of milsurp ammo. I plan to re-work some of the components and reassemble them. Whilst taking them down I took measurements of how they were made. You can find that information in this TFL thread.

I will leave each bullet with the case it came from. I will not be changing any components. I will not be changing the bullets nor the powder. I will only change the charge weight and OAL.

Beyond that I plan to:
1. Tension the necks uniformly with the collet die
2. Clean the bullets of their dried bullet lube
3. Measure the new charges accurately with beam scales for now
4. Lacking any load data, I will not assume the actual charge weights were the max charges, although they appear close to that based on case-fill. As such I will only back off 7.5%, rather than the full 10% one might with a published max charge for the charge ladder.
5. Assemble to an OAL at max-for-mag, provided it takes me no closer to the lands than 0.002"

Let me know what you think of my plan, especially my charge weight assumptions in #4.
I don't want to drop the charge weight too low for safety reasons, but nor do I want to omit potentially good charge weights in the lower range.

 

[Unclenick]

I would weigh the powder charges and average them to find the nominal intended load. You may or may not need that information, but it can't hurt to have it.

If the ammo was made here and some from other countries will have a sealant. The US uses a pitch (asphaltum) seal. You can wash that off the bullets and use mineral spirits on a Q-tip to get it out of the case necks. Just be careful not to get any mineral spirits on the primer. A tuft of tissue or a cotton ball in each case will prevent that, but you have to remember to use tweezers to take them out again. Other sealants may need other solvents.

Old bullets and cases often bond to one another (cold welding or oxidation bonding). It can help to first break that bond and any sealant bond by seating the bullet deeper by a small fraction of an inch. You hear a snap sound when you do this and if it was bonded.

 

[mikld]

Unclenicks' post, as usual, is excellent advise. I have only pulled HXP Greek surplus ammo and have no experience with an asphalt sealer.

Your plan sounds "sound" to me. I believe I would average the powder charge also, and your "reduction" of 7.5% shouldn't pose any problems...

 

[DaleA]

Sounds like lots of work but it sure will be interesting to find out your results.

As usual your situation, that is, the country you're in, makes your life very interesting.

 

[Pond James Pond]

It can help to first break that bond and any sealant bond by seating the bullet deeper by a small fraction of an inch.

This has not been a problem so far, although I have used the "seat a bit more" trick on the Brazilian stuff as it had a "gorilla-grip" crimp on it that hammering the daylight out of with the inertial puller had not shifted one jot.

I would average the powder charge also,

Do you mean average the charge that came out of the cases to begin with? If so, that is what I've done so far. Details are in the linked thread in the OP. Just to recap, the average for the Brazil stuff came to 43.8 (cases were pretty full and bullet base would have pushed into the powder when seated). The Finnish stuff had a bit more room but measured 44.7 average over the 20 cases I pulled. Good that the 7.5% seems safe.

Sounds like lots of work but it sure will be interesting to find out your results.

Yes and yes.

In a sense I can take a known outcome that I have never touched (the milsurp ammo), work some dubious magic and see if I can garner any improvements from those exact same components. If nothing comes of it, do I blame all the components claiming there were all junk to begin with, or accept that my reloading-fu is not as strong as I'd like? We'll have to wait and see!!

the country you're in, makes your life very interesting.

Some but very few dull moments over here!! Certainly encourages creativity!

 

[Metal god]

How many rounds will you have to work with of each combo . I remember in the other thread you only had 10 or so of so brands .

Tension the necks uniformly with the collet die

Have you done any yet or even tested it ? Remember they are already sized cases . My colet die mandrel will not fit in an already sized case neck and I only size them down .002 from loaded diameter . You will likely have to expand the neck first to resize it .

 

[Pond James Pond]

How many rounds will you have to work with of each combo

I have access to 50 total. I will shoot some untouched catridges as part of the ladder. So, at the moment, I will have samples of 5 at each powder charge. With a 7.5% reduced charge from the 43.8gn starting point for the calculation.

Charges are as follows: 5 x untouched cartridges (assumed charge weight of 43.8gn based on my measurements), 5 x "optimised" cartridges with 43.8gn (where optimised loosely means uniform charge weights, cleaned bullets, sized necks and controlled OAL), and then 5 more optimised cartridges at the following charge weights: 42.7, 43.1, 43.6 and 44.0gn That is a total of 32, including a couple of sighting/fouler shots at low charges out of the 50 shots I can use. I could up the group size to an uneven 7 with a couple to spare.

I have enough to do sets of 10 in the Finnish, but I actually want this Brazlian stuff to work most: boxer primed and no bi-metal jackets.

The other thing to remember is that I plan to run all of these suppressed. I bought a can and given the price it cost me, I damn well intend to use it!!

As such the only loads that I will develop specifically to run without the can are my hunting loads as hunting suppressed here is not permitted. For all the others I may as well have running through the rifle set to the most comfortable state: suppressed.

I will eventually, of course, see how those same loads run unsuppressed, but that is not what they will be designed for.

You will likely have to expand the neck first to resize it .

Any time I have had to pull the bullet on a primed case, I have collet sized it as a matter of course. I thought that is what the collet die did... reset neck tension!

 

[stubbicatt]

I'm sure you mentioned this already, but be sure to segregate the powder charges from the two lots of brass. Don't mix the powders from the two different country-sourced ammo!

 

[dahermit]

2. Clean the bullets of their dried bullet lube

Only cast or swagged lead bullets use "bullet lube". I assume you mean "asphalt sealer" as commonly found in surplus military ammo.

Other than that, I did not see where you explained why you are re-working the ammunition. What are you trying to do that just shooting the ammo as-is would not do?

 

[Pond James Pond]

What are you trying to do that just shooting the ammo as-is would not do?

Milsurp typically is not the best ammo. I want see if I can improve it whilst just using the components it was made from.

 

[Metal god]

How's that plan going ?

 

[Pond James Pond]

Getting there! Still not had time to make all my rounds. Half way. Groups of 8 gives me the most shots per charge from the 50 I had to play with. As for when I can shoot... Who knows?! We're having the windiest spring over here!

 

[Sport45]

I wouldn't be surprised if you find that after going to all that trouble the modified ammo doesn't shoot any better than what you started with. If you stay with the original bullets there's nothing I can think of that will make it "match" ammo.

I'd just shoot the stuff. But good luck with the project just the same. Sometimes I find just as much enjoyment at the reloading bench as at the range. (Could be why my groups look like "patterns" compared to what I see others doing. )

 

[Pond James Pond]

How's that plan going ?

Actually that question worked as a bit of a kick up the bum as I just finished the last of the Brazilian stuff today.

I wouldn't be surprised if you find that after going to all that trouble the modified ammo doesn't shoot any better than what you started with. If you stay with the original bullets there's nothing I can think of that will make it "match" ammo.

I'd just shoot the stuff. But good luck with the project just the same. Sometimes I find just as much enjoyment at the reloading bench as at the range.

Well, needless to say I hope this yields some positive results over the factory standard, and I'm not expecting "match" anything, I can assure you!!

True that this is a bit of a project and a bit of fun, but with a distinctively practical edge. If the results are satisfactory this could be my cheapish practice ammo.

If it shoots OK straight out of the box, then even better. If it is just terrible whichever way I go, I'll be a bit disappointed.

 

[T. O'Heir]

2) No such thing as lube on a jacketed bullet.
4) You have no idea what the powder is either. Military ammo is loaded to a particular spec. Generally for a velocity range within a given pressure range using no particular powder.
"Case fill" means nothing as one powder can fill a case more or less than another.
Your doing a lot of work for non-match grade components too. Milsurp ammo is not loaded for match accuracy.

 

[Sport45]

What I was trying to say is the biggest accuracy drawback to milsurp ammo is the bullet, not the charge weight. At least that's been my experience. I've shot buckets of milsurp bullets and 2 to 3 moa is about the best accuracy I've seen in my reloads.

 

[Pond James Pond]

2) No such thing as lube on a jacketed bullet.

Dried "stuff" then...
Apparently it is likely an asphalt sealer as another poster informed me.

4) You have no idea what the powder is either. Military ammo is loaded to a particular spec. Generally for a velocity range within a given pressure range using no particular powder.
"Case fill" means nothing as one powder can fill a case more or less than another.

No, I don't know what powder it is, but having seen the case fill and seen the bullet I can tell you're not going to fit much more in so one can reasonably work down from that.
That is also why I have opted for 7.5% from current charge. In can also do the charge weight ladder in reverse, given that we know that top charge works.

Finally I can use a chrono on the standard ammo and see where the velocity puts me in the realm of 146 gn FMJ bullets.

Your doing a lot of work for non-match grade components too. Milsurp ammo is not loaded for match accuracy.

Yes, I am and guess what! It's quite good fun.
As I have stated before I am simply curious to see if these cartridges will perform in my rifle satisfactorily and if I can improve on that by tweaking things. I've never claimed any match grade aspirations.

I am sort of surprised why many are so seemingly against the idea on principle...

What I was trying to say is the biggest accuracy drawback to milsurp ammo is the bullet, not the charge weight.

It is the biggest, but the disparities in neck tension and powder charge and OAL that I have found probably wouldn't have helped, so reducing/eliminating those together could make this more serviceable. Or not.

Only one way to find out.

If it does work, it would drop my range ammo cost by about 70%. That is worth investigating.

 

[Nathan]

I like your idea.

I would change your plan just a bit. First, I would reload to .030" off the lands. The collet neck die sounds fine.

I would treat this as an OCW load. I would load to:
the average pulled weight
-1 %
-2%
-3%
-4%

I would make 5 of each. Then shoot my groups from low to high on 5 targets ...as in shot 1 target 1, shot 2 target 2...etc where shot one is -4%, shot 2 is minus 3%....with all shots of same weight on same target.

 

[Pond James Pond]

I like your idea.

I would change your plan just a bit. First, I would reload to .030" off the lands. The collet neck die sounds fine.

Thanks for the positive reception!!

I've loaded them already so no changes there and I am indeed 0.02" off the lands, or 0.5mm. They are now pretty consistent down to about +/-0.02mm.

I have used an OCW ladder, but I took the average load, got a value at -7.5% of that and from there went in 2% increments. The gaps are about 0.4.gn apart. We'll see.

I know there is no way of knowing, but the powder looks exactly like VV powder which is what I use exclusively so there is a familiar feel to handling the powder.

Weather permitting, I hope to try them this weekend!

 

[Pond James Pond]

One thing I have decided not to do it carry out the same process with the Finnish milsurp.

I'd decided not to run steel-jacketed ammo through my gun some time ago, so when I realised that is that it was I knew the whole optimising process would be a waste of time.

I am going to reassemble those I pulled, tension the necks, seat bullets uniformly and ensure they each have exactly the same charge weight. I'll run them up against an equal number of untouched cartridges to see if there is any difference, purely out of curiosity, but that is as far as I go.

I will leave the rest that I was given access to alone: perhaps the club has some who wants them.

So any chance of success rests squarely on the Brazilian shoulders. They are copper jacketed and are boxer primed: bonus if it works out!!