My new Model 70 Winchester doesn't group well

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Pops1085

New member
I have a new production Model 70 sporter in 30-06. It consistently only groups about 1.5-2.5 inch groups at 100 yards from the bench. I've tried several different types of ammo, hunting and match with all similar results. I do not believe it is the shooter in this case.

My question is what would be your first thought? Would bedding the action help? I know that back when the model 70 was first produced, a lot of rifles of that era required bedding and gunsmithing to get them really accurate. Not sure how much has changed since then with the current design.

What really sold me on the rifle was the return of the controlled round feed. It's a gorgeous gun, and the fit and finish are very nice. I just wish I could get it to shoot well.
 
Other details I should add... The rifle has a total of 50 rounds through it, has been cleaned with copper solvent before each outing (a total of 3 cleanings/outings). I run a dry patch down the barrel before each shooting session to make sure the bore is dry.

Currently, the best ammo I've gotten a group with is a round loaded with sierra match kings.
 
First, I don't know you or your rifle,which means all I can do is send you on a wild goose chase.

Beyond checking that the guard screws are properly torqued and your optics are securely mounted,I suggest you not jump right into modifying the rifle.

Lets start with a grand illusion. Everyone on the internet has a pet rifle or a problem rifle.

The vast majority of "pet rifles" are production hunting rifles.and every true "pet rifle" shoots sub-MOA groups "all day long"

Most of us expect a sub MOA tack driver out of the box when we buy a new gun.

If we get a 1.5 or 2 MOA gun first trip to the range.we now have a "problem rifle", we are nt one of the "cool kids" we are disillusioned.

Can it be saved? Will therapy or surgery work?

Disillusionment is the birthpains of truth and reality.

In fact,the 1.5 to 2 MOA production hunting rifle is a normal production hunting rifle.

A lot of "sub MOA all day long" rifles threw 3 shots out of 5 in a cluster,and he other two have good excuses. Its the internet.

All you have to do is write "It shoots sub MOA all day long" smile, and bring home all the venison a 2 MOA rifle will collect.

But now some cautious optimism. Like Doctors and Mechanics,some gunsmiths are hacks. And some are pros.

Some gunsmiths offer "Accurizing services" and its likely they can give you what you are after,for a price.If they are not hacks.

It takes knowledgable eyes and fingers to diagnose what to do.

The internet forum does not have those
 
Some rifles don't shoot that well until the bore gets fouled with some copper. Keep shooting it and trying different loads. My suggestion is to clean powder fouling and leave the copper for now and see if it improves.

No way to know for sure without spending some time with it.
 
Name the ammo you have tried, including bullet weights so that we can suggest something that you haven't tried. I would suggest that you try Winchester Power-Point ammo in a few different weights. Power-Points usually shoot well even though they are an entry level grade of ammo, and the brass is usually decent for reloading. For premium ammo, I think it's best to load your own. I expect it's a good rifle and sooner or later you'll find your proper stride.
 
I recently bought a new model 70 sporter as well in 270 WSM--I'm guessing your's is made in the same place (FN/Portugal) as mine if it has single-piece bottom metal, and probably came with the same degree of quality control.

I confess that I'm one of those "internet hacks" that HiBC refers to--though I never refer to anything as "shoots sub MOA all day long" as I think that's a joke.

That said, I found my model 70 "wanting" in several areas compared to an older model 70 I've used. The execution of the stock I found rated "poor," the "bedding", such as it is, was simply two blobs of of mystery meat injected to hold the receiver level in the stock, and that's about it as there was little other proper contact of the inlet to the receiver in my rifle. I pillar and bedded mine and wouldn't hesitate to recommend that if your's is a similar execution. Just my personal opinion, but without proper support the model 70 stock is prone to compression and cracking over time in the bottom metal inlets where the receiver screws go through.

I recently got a borescope--the bane of manufacturers since they often reveal horror shows in the bores.:D I was a bit disappointed in my barrel, it had similar "teeth" that my savage bores have though not as pronounced, and also has a spiral gouge which goes down about the last 3rd of the bore to the muzzle, most likely the result of a piece of hard metal falling in front of the Botton rifler as it went through the bore. I fire-lapped mine and that reduced the gouge by about 40% and considerably smoothed the chatter in the bore, but it still has "teeth" and still accumulates copper fairly quickly. As mentioned, Winchester's own ammo is quite good, I just shot their 130 gr power max bonded ammo as my first test after fire-lapping and got a 4 shot group right at MOA at 230 yards. I'm guessing I can beat that after chasing around with a good handload eventually.

I called Winchester with some of my concerns, the CS guy I talked to assured me that they will do whatever it takes to make me happy--so you do have that going for you if you find the rifle does not "smooth off" and improve it's accuracy. I'd buy another one for sure.;)
 
I have what I consider a lot of rifles, calibers from .22 Hornet to 50-70 Government. Almost all of the bolt action, scoped guns will do 1 1/2" at 100 with carefully developed hand loads. A few will do 1" or better, but not many. They are all commercial rifles, with a few rebarreled Mausers thrown in.

I too recently bought one of the Portuguese Model 70s in .416 Rem Mag. Still working loads, but my first round with Hornady DGS bullets was noted as "minute of buffalo" in my log. I'm confident that I will get where I need to be, but it may take a considerable amount of powder and shot. And 2" will certainly be good enough.

Keep shootin'. And good luck.
 
In fact,the 1.5 to 2 MOA production hunting rifle is a normal production hunting rifle.
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Not in the 21st century. That was acceptable years ago, but any hunting rifle should put 3 shots into an inch @ 100 yards with the right ammo. It ain't a target rifle and I don't care what it does with more than 3 shots.

I'd call Winchester and ask them what ammo they tested with and try that. If it still doesn't shoot acceptable send it back to Winchester.

You might also try a different scope on it just to eliminate that possibility.
 
check action screws ,most likely middle screw to tight
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The newer bottom metals are just two screws AFAIK.
I too recently bought one of the Portuguese Model 70s in .416 Rem Mag.
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Big 5 boom-boom--manly cartridge there.;) Is the stock cross-bolted? just curious.
 
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Yes, crossbolted. Recoil is overrated: "a strong push". Thank my lucky stars it's not "snappy".
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I've found that as long as the grip drop-off/comb isn't low compared to bore axis the risk of getting "scope-eyed" drops off dramatically even on powerful cartridges. My 270 WSM magnum I believe does not have the cross bolts so you probably have a "safari class" model 70.
 
Have owned a bunch of Model 70's, which is my favorite bolt rifle platform at the moment. With enough handloading experimentation, I've been able to get every one of them to shoot around 1 MOA... but none any better until replacing and rebedding the stocks.

With bedding and recrowning, these guns will shoot very well.

I would recommend having a good smith bed the stock and I'd imagine that would fix your problem. But, no guarantees, of course.
 
You are so correct. After being in the sniper community for years, and being an old man, I have watched competition rifles and sniper rifle attitude and technology filter down to the hunting rifle community. Nothing wrong with having accurate hunting rifles. However, the demand for out of the box 1/2 MOA hunting rifles is overblown. Back in my day I can't count how many times old paper plates were used as targets ( we were poor) and we killed lots of deer with those rifles. If someone buys and 1.5 MOA rifle for deer hunting it tickles me to watch them figure out how to fix " this problem gun". Yall have a great day!
 
I just recently bought a Winchester M70 extreme weather in 25-06. With warne rings and bases and a Meopta 4.5 to 12 scope it's a tack driver right out of the box shooting Remington or Winchester factory ammo. Good luck with yours.
 
Hi Pops1085,

I feel your pain.

There appears to be a pandemic of diseased quality control among American rifle manufacturers spreading like Middle Ages plague.

There is no rational excuse for any big game rifle, especially a rifle bearing the esteemed Winchester brand, to leave its factory in flawed condition and unable to shoot MOA.

I've been very lucky with big game rifles. All three of mine are shooters.

I don't need another big game rifle. But if I were in the market for a big game rifle, and I hurts me to write this, I'd look to European, especially German quality.

How would I be ahead of the game if I forked over a grand plus on an American brand rifle that required another grand in smith work to make it shoot like an out-of-the-box Sako?

I'm first and foremost a big game hunter. There are only two simple requirements I have for a big game rifle: accuracy and reliability. My 45-year-old has both to remarkable precision. It has been the only rifle I've taken on many Rocky Mountain big game hunts. It's dead on balls accurate, an industry term (Monalisa Vito My Cousin Vinny). It has never failed to do anything. My expectation is improved rifle quality since my Model 700 left Remington's factory. There is absolutely no rational excuse for any reputable American big game rifle manufacturer to allow a flawed copy that won't shoot MOA to leave a factory.

Sako guarantees five-shot MOA with factory ammo, which I think is astonishing. I'm lucky to get MOA out of factory ammo. My hand loads will print .25 MOA. If Sako can manufacture excellent quality rifles, why the heck can't American rifle manufacturers better Sako's quality???

Pops, the way I see it, Winchester ought to shoot as good as Sako right out of the box.

Shoddy American big game rifles are beginning to cause me concern. In fact, my recommendation is to ship it back. Your letter might want o include an exclamation to the effect: "Don't return it to me until it prints MOA, and include the MOA target!!!"
 
Good Morning yournodaisy,

Congratulations. Your rifle shoots the way we expect Winchester rifles to shoot.

BTW, the .25-06 Rem is one of our better North American big game cartridges. In fact, it's darn close to perfect. It's a cartridge that will be around long after many others are buried in the gone and forgotten big game cartridge cemetery.
 
1.5-2.5 inch groups at 100 yards isn't inaccurate. A Win M70 is a hunting rifle. What kind of accuracy were you expecting?
"...rifles of that era required..." The M70 dates from 1936. And everything changed in 1964. However, all commercial rifles require bedding and trigger work. Plus carefully selecting the ammunition. It has nothing to do with "that era".
"...unable to shoot MOA..." That is gun rag writer nonsense.
"...Sako guarantees..." With very specific ammo. Just like every other company with fantasy advertising.
 
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