My name is George, and I am a civilian

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Interesting thread. Being a more-or-less law abiding citizen, I have had limited experience in dealing with LEO's OTJ. Mostly I have been treated fairly and decently, though a few times there was 'room for improvement'. I must admit, though, I do see the 'them/us' attitude sometimes, and have on occasion pointed out that I am NOT the enemy/problem, and that we're all in this together. I have never used the
'I pay your salary' crap, as I consider that inflamatory, but I have asked more than one officer 'I don't think you're stupid, why do you think I am?'

Overall, I think LE is one of the toughest jobs going and have alot of respect for the men and women who do that job. LEO's see peole at their best and worst (mostly the latter), and I sort of understand how the 'them/us' attitude can develop and how oficers can feel estranged from society at large, and how their only friends are other cops.

There have been a lot of good answers to GLV's questions. From the police side, I appreciate keeping in mind that they are part of the community they serve and treating people as they would like to be treated. Remember, you are not above the law, on duty of off. Basic professionalism.

From the non-LEO side, it's kind of the same thing - be a responsible member of the community, cooperate, be polite (the cops don't write the laws, they just call 'em as they seem 'em). Behave like an adult. Get to know the officers who work in your area/neighborhood. Put your money where your mouth is. If you want more out of your police force, then be prepared to pay for it in terms of training, equipment, benefits, and people.

Boy, do I sound pollyanna or what? I guess it boils down to this: police reflect the society/community they're drawn from. If you want it civil and caring, then we (them & us) must all behave that way - take a little time to get involved, get acquainted, keep an open mind, and participate. If you want it comparmentalized and estranged, then keep pointing fingers, ducking responsibility, complain about everything (while doing nothing), and let the politicians run amonk with no accountability. It's someone else's problem, right?
M2
 
Pondering Rob's comment about not fearing local law enforcement, I tend to agree with him. Although some local LEOs would follow any order, most (especially the older ones) would refuse to be part of a blatant federal take-over.

(BTW, I believe "older" ones would tend to refuse more often than the "younger/newer" LEOs because we old frogs have felt the heat increase longer, suffered their intrusions and lies longer, and have seen greater changes in the "status quo", etc. than have the "fresh", newly trained, less experienced LEOs. Just guesswork of course.)

Someone on TFL (DC?) pointed out that when the German federal-level policies went "bad" many, many local police refused to obey the obviously immoral federal orders.

Federal police took local police into the streets and shot them to death in front of the citizens. I believe most feds would refuse to do that - but they would be assigned elsewhere. There are always enough people in any organization who will follow orders, without thought or question.

Until we as citizens lose our guns (as the Germans had lost theirs), federal LE would have a hard time executing our County Sheriff's Deputies. I know several people who'd fight with the local LEOs against the feds in the blink of an eye.

Just another reason why civilians and LEOs (especially the local ones) must get together more than drift apart.

Just another reason why the feds dare never know what they're up against. Never register firearms. Never.

Dennis
 
California is the model for what the Feds want to be and it is not pretty. Effectively all local jurisdictions and politics are directly plugged into Sacramento.

I mentioned this a few months back: I grew up in a tiny farm town and still live here. We used to have the same deputy for long long periods of time. He knew us and we knew him. There was mutual like and respect.
Now they rotate in around 3 month shifts....there is no crime here but they patrol 4 times as much (plus now 2 daily CHP patrols too) and hand out traffic tickets and equipment issues like water. They remain aloof and look at you like they just know you did something. Response time is over 30 minutes, so if they are needed the chances are they won't be available. I don't mean this as inflammatory but given this situation, we don't need them.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
I wasnt going to way in on this but ive just reread everything and need to point out that we ''the citizens'', are definitely on an unequal footing with leo were the law is concerned, any one that has the power of law and law enforcement behind then has the potential for abuse.......here are some personal examples....
I once owned and rode harley davidsons, I since sold them to purchase a house. I was pulled over on my way to work by a officer probably 8 years ago, he was friendly and courteous and claimed to have been tracking me from gallatin road, down briley parkway and onto I40 were a car was between me and the off ramp I needed, I sped up to pass the car to make the ramp, I could not slow down because this guy was on my bumper and Im not sure of what his reaction time could be, as soon as I sped up he hit the lights and siren and pulled me over on the off ramp. He immediately started asking me about affiliations with people and locations of clubhouses, etc. etc....and the one that really surprised me(you see im conditioned to rest of the crap), was the request for me to take my shirt off so he could photograph my tatoos..----now folks, I have never belonged to any club and never been to any clubhouse, and have no tatoo's, dont want any. Im also not prone to do anything illegal except drive faster than 55., when I took that tickett to court the judge threw it out.
I experienced another absolutely great experience of abuse from a police officer who at the time was working in a small town south of nashville that is know for speed traps, unfortunately that officer now works for metro,(where I live),,,,once again Im on my motorcycle by myself, im following three cars, through the entire town of lavergne, there is a bridge that is the boundary between rutherford co., and davidson co., rutherford is the co., that lavergne is in and im going home to davidson co., after I pass this bridge the cars Im following slow down and Ive an opening to accelerate around them, so I do, I accelerate around them and pull away from them, several miles later I approach bell road and just chking my mirrors see blue lights a ways back, so I pull over to give him room and he pulls end behind me, ----he has come back to the car and handcuffs me on the hood and pats me down, tells me I was sppeding doing 70mi an hour through lavergne(you locals will know how ignorant that is), and that I was trying to out run him, to make it short he was looking for a another dui for his belt, but surprise surprise, I gave up drinking alchol when Im out years ago, I only drink juices and diet sodas when Im out, the look on his face was priceless when he realized I hadnt been drinking....thats ok he got even he arrested me for reckless driving and had my cherry stock scoot towed to kings wrecker...it cost me a bundle in insurance, and the worse part, it was totally a lie. I have even mentioned this to a leo I know especially when I found out that this Leo now works in metro, and his brush off response was --I hear this all the time, its what everyone says....

Is there problem betweeen leo, and CIVILIANS,
yeah I think there is, and Ive a couple more that are excatly like that here in nashville and one from texas....

Now that said, do I trust the leo, ...yes I do, those incidents were wrong, but I attribute that to those particular officers and the mind set they get into, and the perceptions that they have of various groups in society(must be an us vs them mindset)--still pissed about those things,,,oh yeah....do I wish there was recourse for these types of abuses...you bet I do, I think that the law that is wrongly applied or misused is extremely dangerous........fubsy.
 
Interestingly, the word "police" comes from the ancient Greek word politeuein, which meant "to be a citizen."

DC says it all. I think that "community policing" is the way to go. I grew up in a smaller (15,000) town, and by the time I was a teenager I was on a first-name basis with a few of the cops. They knew I was just a punk prankster, and I knew they were just doing their job. Once or twice I stepped over the line, and once or twice they did, too. But they policed their own community, so nobody went too far.

Denver government is trying their hardest to go the way of Washington D.C., Chicago, New York, etc. - police control, no citizen weaponry, lots of seizures of property... And the cops are, largely, pricks. Of course they only trust other cops - the citizens don't like them! There are exeptions, of course. If a cop were to patrol their own neighborhood (on foot, occasionally) and get to know who's who and what's going on, perhaps the kind of mutual respect I had with my nemesis' as a punk kid would evolve. Perhaps not, but I think it would be better than the current nameless authority figure behind the badge. When I was a kid, I didn't go too far, even when I felt I'd been wronged by officer xxxxx, because I knew him, knew he was human, just like me. Big city cops, generally, don't think they're like me - they think they're different, superior, and that's where the problem lies.

That said, I'm seriously looking into a career in law enforcement. I'm taking the Denver preliminary exam tomorrow, despite being told by many (including Denver officers) that I don't stand a chance because I'm non-minority and not ex-military. I'm looking forward to hearing back from Douglas County (south edge of Denver and beyond) Sheriff's Department any day. Why? I'm in a most fortunate position, in that money is not a big issue in my life. I'm by no means rich, but I don't really care to be. So I want to do something that matters. I want to be one of the good guys - a voice of reason. I know it isn't that easy, but I've got to try.

Hey, here's an idea - next time you get the chance, introduce yourself to a cop. Chat with him. Ask him how he's doing. Where's he from? Maybe thank him - it's not an easy job, no matter how you spin it. If he's friendly, ask about his sidearm (hey, something in common!) - is it issued, or his? If we just stare suspiciously at cops we can't expect them to be friendly. If cops just stare suspiciously at us, they can't expect us to be friendly. Let's try to break that cycle.
 
The solution to the us v them problem is very simple. Get to know your local LEO. Take one out for lunch. Go hunting with one. Go to the range and shoot with them. Ask them to join you local hunting/shooting club. And for you LEO's, spend some time off duty out in the community getting to know your fellow citizens.

Some of the best experiences I had growning up were out shooting at the range with our local sheriff's. See the problem is perception. The fear of the unknown. Also most people feel guilty of doing something wrong such as speeding so that when they do see an LEO they are afraid of the consequences that the LEO represents. The only way to get over this is to meet with an get to know your local LEO's. Most people will then find out that even if they do something wrong they are not going to shoot them over it. Well just my 2c worth.

Richard
 
I know a few leo's not well, but well enuf to say high and small talk. I almost joined the border patrol when I fist left the navy, I am not anti law enforcement. I do believe in giving the benefit of the doubt to the officer and do so, but ill tell ya up front that that particular officer that lied, I know I cant trust him and would be wary of anything he said.

those other post were some of the bad memories......
I also remember an leo pulling me over on my scooter for running 82 in a 55, as soon as i saw him I pulled over, he had been coming from the area I was heading and I saw him turn around, I was trying to get away from traffic.........This guy pulled up and first real question was you been drinking, att I had been, we talked for a few minutes and he asked if I felt I could make it home and since I wasnt drunk he let me go,,,,,and ya know when I went to court for the speeding tickett he had written it for speeding but under 10 miles an hour.........
There was the time in tx were a buddy and mine had gone through school in San Angelo and were heading to elpaso to home in his truck, I had been driving and it was hot and we were tired and I overshot the exit ramp.....I was backing up very slowly and almost off the shoulder of the road(there is no telling were the nearst exit would have been), when out of no were a state trooper pulled up....(they grow them folks big), this guy gets out runs our license's, my buddy opened his glove box and out drops a 357 mdl 19 loaded, the guy dosent panic just tell's us to step down in the ditch, we do , he checks the gun, makes some calls puts the gun back in the glove box and puts our license's on the front seat and tells us to proceed..................I often think about that fella, today they would have to have put us under the jail....lol......fubsy.
 
One way to limit the appearance of LEO wrong-doing would be to limit the profit-motive from 'drug' seizures. Some folks have the idea, perhaps legitimate in certain jurisdictions, that civil forfeiture laws are being abused to pad agency budgets. Yes, these funds are already limited to training and equipment expenses. (Imagine the potential for abuse if the funds could go into the budget for salaries.) However, go even further and allow the agencies to keep only a fixed limit based on a percentage of the agency's existing budget. Any funds exceeding the limit would go to a state general fund ear-marked for crime prevention, victim assistance, detox programs, etc.

The legislative precedent already exists in some states that have mandated similiar limits on the funds retained by municipalities from traffic enforcement fines. The goal was to prevent the classic Podunk PD speed trap, with which certain dried-up locales would obtain a large chunk of their municipal funding each year.
 
I was away for a little while...

And look at this thread! Dang! I missed some good debate here...

Not only that, I see I am nominated as Rich's Bouncer...

Ah, Rich... With this group - I will need the keys the TFL's M-1A
smile.gif


People, please... There is a Gulf here. Lets look at ways to narrow this canyon up so we can build a few bridges!

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RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
 
Well, I missed all of the excitement. Been gone since I placed the post several days ago.

I did not read Rob's original post, but can imagine what it said. I have thick skin, and I can ignore Rob.

An example of something that bothers me, about 3PM, today, two lane road southbound, in Indiana, driving about 5 over. Sheriffs dept car passes me at about 80mph. Civilian cloths, and NO LIGHTS! Now he may have had a good reason for the speed, however can any LEO give me a good reason not to have the light bar running while running 20+ mph faster than the traffic? I have spent some time in ambulances, running signal 10, and we always were lit up, and with sirens while in traffic.

Instead of forfeit funds going to law enforcement, let them go support local charities. Take the profit motive out of what is supposed to be a service to the citizens of our country.

From some of my E mail, I understand some thought I must have had problems with police. Nothing could be futher from the truth. I have not had a traffic ticket in 20 years, and NEVER received a ticket that I did not deserve. I have NEVER been treated badly by a police officer, and have excellent relations with a number of officers.

Next, I am an active member of The American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers, Member # 699, an active member of the International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors, and I have given many hours of my time to help train law enforcement people, without any compensation.

I hold about a half dozen police/law enforcement certifications. I know some members don't think much of credentials, but I would be willing to fax a copy to Rich or Kodiac.

I wonder what the relations between law enforcement and citizens would be IF there were no WAR ON DRUGS? What if all of the laws put on the books, to aid this war, were gone?

I think Police would have the respect many believe is deserved. GLV
 
Officers in many couties/cities cannot just turn the lights oon whenever they feel justified. They must be given a priority code from the dispatcher. Only certain calls qualify for the priority. In my county at lesat, somehting like a house alarm going off would not qualify, but if I was 15 miles away from the call when I got it, many responsible officers would likely exceed the speed limit in order to get there as fast as safely possible.

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-Essayons


[This message has been edited by Rob (edited June 07, 1999).]
 
As someone who has had his property messed with at every single place he has lived in America, I'd appreciate the officer hurrying - even though the "department" didn't think it was worth using lights or lights & siren.
 
Most of my interactions with LEOs have been no problem. I noticed a certain amount of over-eagerness, occasionally, among traffic patrollers in the southeastern part of the country. Some incredible speed-traps in Georgia, Alabama and Florida in the 1950s/'60s.

An ATF buddy of mine commented to me that when he went to ATF, most of the guys were ex-cops in their 30s or 40s, who liked the safer line of work and better pay. Beginning in the 1980s, however, the ATF started hiring (he pointed at the 20-ish busboy of the cafe as an example) young guys who "went to FLETC, learned us vs. them, and got a badge and a gun, but no judgement".

A friend of mine went to work for the Natl Park Service in 1992, and was sent to FLETC. I asked him about the "us vs. them" issue, and he paused for a moment and said, "Yeah, come to think of it. There was a lot of that..."

A problem with my picture of fed LEOs in this area is that southwest Texas is a punishment tour for some. Guess what we have running loose without leashes around here? The sick, lame, lazy and goofups...

In general, I tend to cut slack for LEOs in the knowledge that they see so many folks at their worst. In many areas, ten years "on the street" oughta merit some sort of retirement program--let'em take some sort of pay and move on to safer/better stuff?

Hey, lots of jobs affect the folks involved. I couldn't stand to date elementary-school teachers--I hated being talked to as though I were a third-grader! (No, she did NOT say, "Get your hands off me or you'll have to go stand in the corner!" Shut up, Dennis.)

FWIW, Art
 
As in every job,there are idiots and there are great people to work with. Same with the police...... Its interesting to see sooooo many 'administrators' here. Kinda overkill,if ya ask me.......
 
As a kid in VA, I was a wilder driver than most, and not only drove a motorcycle but had a brother a year older who did also. In the early '60s this was really rare at least in that area. When pulled over in a car (not unusual) we both faced the question of whether "you're the red one or the blue one" referring to the color of our bikes. To say we were well known is an understatement.

My license was suspended several different times, due to VERY stringent speeding laws which I apparently was unable to comprehend. Essentially every LEO I had reason to deal with was a total jerk with a Hitler complex. Maybe that had something to do with the fact that the local judge believed everything they said and ALWAYS found the defendant guilty, even when the charge was thoroughly proven to be BS.

Just before departing for the military, my license was suspended again, which required me to show up in VA to get it back, and since I was in the pipeline to Vietnam at the time I could not get away to do that. In pilot training in Alabama, I determined to try to get one there, and was refused because it was under suspension in VA. Asking who had the authority to waive that fact, I was referred to the high mucky-muck for the whole state, something like the Commissioner of public safety or something.

When I called the number I was given, he answered the phone!!! Given my experiences with VA's bureaucracy, I couldn't even believe it. In the course of getting my license I ended up calling him several times and meeting with him in person once, as he kept forgetting to notify all the appropriate agencies that he had approved my request (answered his own darn phone? He had to be awfully busy, no hard feelings at all), and he and every single one of the LEOs who worked for him were unfailingly polite, considerate, friendly, and willing to listen to my side of the story. That even included the last one I dealt with on the subject, as a result of his sending me a letter stating that if I did not appear at such and such a time he was going to have a nice man come to my house and ARREST me for failing to surrender my driver's license. I showed up without my license deliberately, and he and I got on the phone with the commissioner right then and there, together, and all was settled in a half-hour. BTW, I reviewed my violations up to that time and I would have never had my license suspended in the first place, not ever, under Alabama's laws.

Still, that process was going to be unacceptable for a lifetime, so when I had 10 days or so in VA, I went to do what was necessary to get the suspension off my license (take a test). I didn't want a license, since I had one, just to remove the suspension. The VA LEO at the desk was abrupt, discourteous, a total jerk as usual for VA at the time, and promptly refused to listen to me further since I didn't have the letter authorizing me to get my license back (it was 800 miles away). Since the reason for my return to VA was to say goodbye to my brother who had just returned from Vietnam in a box, my mood was not real shiny. When I pulled out a sheet of paper and copied down the name off his tag, I finally got his attention and he chased me down the hall to find out what that was all about. Eventually he allowed me to take the test and that was over. Since that moment, if my wife's family didn't live in VA I would have never been back.

In the 20+ years that I have since called Texas home, the overwhelming majority of TX LEOs I have come in contact with, state or local, have been every bit as professional as those in Alabama, which is saying a lot. There have been a few exceptions, including one who was a real, live menace to society and armed by the state. Scary. But better examples are like last week, when I misdialed my wife's cell number (starts with 91) and got 911. I explained, apologized, and in less than 5 minutes a local LEO was at my door, not even a surprise to me. My wife had arrived in the meantime, I requested she join me so he'd relax, then I apologized again for causing the trouble, he stated that they liked calls that turned out to be no problem, I thanked him for responding so quickly, if I ever needed him it would be a real comfort, we chatted a few moments and he was on his way. This is how it SHOULD work, every time, IMHO.

The menace I mentioned was a total, exact opposite. He stopped me for no reason and threatened to give me a ticket. I said there was no reason to but if he wished I'd see him in court, and he became furious, absolutely livid and totally out of control, and threatened to "kick my ass" right then and there. I think he might have, too, except the second officer (who, I believe, was there to keep an eye on HIM) restrained him, and I got to say, for the second time in my life and deadly serious, "If you lay a hand on me, I'll have your badge.", at which I thought he was gonna faint he got so mad. This was all within two minutes and in front of two witnesses. Dangerous.

I wrote up my complaint and delivered it to his supervisor, turned out he'd been shipped from Austin to southwest TX (sound familiar?) because of the hundreds of complaints they got about his behavior on a regular basis, but he STILL wasn't fired, I understand his daddy was a state senator or some such. Eventually he got his, though. There was a prominent local businessman this guy had a hard-on for, stopped him 3-5 times a week and ticketed him for all manner of made-up stuff, which the guy sent his lawyer to court for and all were dismissed, getting this "leo" (using the term loosely) even madder, more aggressive toward him, etc. The guy complained, pulled strings, got nowhere with trying to get this cop off his back, until he showed up in court, finally, and after the case was dismissed (again) asked to address the court. He went on with a prepared statement, on the court record, for a half-hour, describing all the threats to his person, harassment he had suffered, attempts to deal with the cop legally he had made, etc, and ended up with "I have a gun. If that man ever stops me again, EVER, I will shoot him." The cop was fired the next day.

99 percent of LEOs are honest. Where they are held to high standards they are your friends, and ones you may someday really need. Treated with respect and courtesy, they will treat you with more (at least if you're not in VA).

Larry P.
 
I want some opinions of some LEO's here...

One of my co-workers had an interesting run-in with an officer today. On his way to work this morning, he was pulled over for having a busted tail light in his truck. When he got out of his truck to approach the officer (my co-worker is legally deaf, he has to be close enough to read lips), apparantly the officer didn't like it. The officer used the loudspeaker on his car to announce to my deaf co-worker that if he didn't get back in his truck he was GOING TO SHOOT HIM. Fortunately, he has enough hearing to understand what the officer said over the loudspeaker, and got back into his truck.

When the officer got to the vehicle, my friend's twelve year-old son was almost hysterical. You see, he hears quite well, and heard the officer threaten to shoot his father...

At least the police officer had the decency not to write him a ticket for the busted tailight.

Now, my question is, DOES A POLICE OFFICER HAVE THE RIGHT TO THREATEN TO SHOOT ANYONE? I know if I said that to someone approaching my car, I could be jailed for terrorstic threats!

By the way, just for reference (and a word of warning), this happened in Cobb County, Georgia. The officer was a member of the Cobb Co. Sheriff's dept. (not a slam on them, I have known and encountered several Cobb Co. officers, and they were all competent professionals, including the guy who got me for speeding two years ago...)
 
Let's look at it from the other point of view:

The officer pulls over a car that is in disrepair. The driver of the vehicle gets out and starts walking towards the officer. It is imaginable, at least to me, that the officer may have warned the driver to get back in the car verbally, before he got on the loudspeaker. That means that, from the LEOs point of view, this guy is now ignoring his instructions, and probly acting oblivious to them. If it were me, I'd start thinking drunk or high. Now, I have to get this guy to comply, I can use any means justifiable at this point, but all of them, except continued verbal warnings, require me to 1. Expose myself to possible harm and 2. possibly use unecessary force. So, the LEO chooses another verbal warning, including a verbal threat of lethal force, to get his point across.

Of the options available, I'd say the officer did the right thing. You can only say "Get back in the car, please" or "get back in the car, NOW!" so many times.. he was probly about 3 seconds away from drawing on the guy, at least drawing the pepper spray, based on the continued advance of the suspect and the suspects complete obliviousness towards the previous verbal commands.

If the officer actually used the phrase "I am going to shoot you" that is kinda unprofessional. Seems like there would be better ways to convey that message, but he was well within the limits. Myself, I wouldn't be comfortable saying that, I would probly have opted for getting out behind the door and putting my hand on my gun, if I could see the suspect's hands, perhaps the pepper spray instead, depending on his build/demeanor. For the record, I have never drawn a weapon in that situation, nor would I want to.

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-Essayons
 
Dave,
There is such a thing as a use of force continuum, and it includes physical presence, verbal, open hands, weapons (impact and chemical) and lastly deadly force. In my opinion that officer jumped the gun so to speak. Immedaitely threatening to shoot your coworker simply for exiting his vehicle and walking to the patrol car was extreme. Have there been any recent events in the area where officers have been attacked in a situation such as this?
OTOH, your friend should have stayed in the truck and waited for the officer to approach. This is the best thing to do unless told to do otherwise by the officer.
 
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