My name is George, and I am a civilian

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G

GLV

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Them vs us. It seems that is the direction law enforcement/civilians relations are going today.

Several things seem to highlight the increasing distrust many 'civilians' have of police. We all know about the 'mistakes', that lead to death or injury of innocent civilians, and while these acts are a part of the problem, they are not the problem. I think it is deeper than that, so I'll start in another direction.

First 'civilians' are made different from 'police' just because of these two names. Police create us vs them in this manner.

Next, Police, when off duty, driving POVs or city/state cars, cannot seem to drive in a reasonable manner.

Next, police officers, talking about being members of the largest street gang in America. Comment like " you may own ***** but I own the streets.

Again, LEOs bragging about new equipment bought from proceeds of seizures.

I am sure other members will add to this list.

I know that we civilians/citizens must do and say many things that ruffle the feathers of law enforcement officers. I'll let LEOs list what they see as problems with the rest of us.

I know, as a citizen, I do not wish a war with the police, and I cannot believe the police really want a war with the citizens of the United States. The gap between these two groups is growing at a rapid pace. Two questions:

What can the citizens do to stop this from becoming a war?

What can law enforcement do to keep this from becoming a war?

GLV
 
Citizens can cease embracing lawless, rebellious behavior.

Police officers/chiefs/mayors/body polotic can cease embracing lawless, rebellious behavior.

The world would be so much easier to live in if people in general were not rebelling against the laws of God and being such AH's in the process.

Remember though, not all things that are statutorily illegal should be; some things that are legal should not be...

My 2/100 dollar, fire away.

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KaBOOM!
 
I have been on both sides here...

But I hate to say it - there IS an us vs them thing going...

And as a Citizen... if feel quite often the LEOs are abusing power - as is EVERYONE in any governing capacity. It seems it is SOP to stomp down in normal middle class citizens - yet cater to the freaks and dregs!
I have sat in court, As an officer and as a winess and just in support of friends that were defedants... Okay, and as a defendant myself - traffic... And have seen GOOD PEOPLE get the book thrown at them! MAX fines and penalties. I took in one guy expecting him to just get a fine - the judge SLAMMED him with a YEAR of parole! Had I known that was going to happen - I wouldnt have taken him in!
And I have seen repeat offenders, total idiots, and worse GET OFF SCOTT FREE!

I my self had a small traffic thing I was going to contest... I saw folks get off left and right for HORRIBLE sh!t and when I stood before the man... I got HAMMERED. I was expecting 50 at most - and got 150! PLUS COURT FEES!

The WHOLE system is TOTALLY screwed up.

Cops on the street let dudes weaving in and out of lanes go by, to snag a 19 year old girl in a tracker for going 4 over!?!? And a mother of 5 kids gets CUFFED cause her mini van has expired tags, expired less than a week!?!?

I think LE has gone WAY TOO FAR just like the rest of our BIG BROTHER.

Some times I miss being a badge... But other times... I am almost sorry for ever putting one on.

This country is not FREE... we have to PAY for every one of our so called "Rights". And it keeps getting more and more expensive every day.


Okay, I now have a sharp pain behind my right eye, and i feel a HUGE migrane coming on... I am going home to lay down for awhile...

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RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
 
Have to disagree to an extent. I am not a cop but I have quite a few working for me off duty. Most of them impress me as regular guys/gals trying to make a living and most of them support our rights. I don't think the problem is with individual officers but with the system and the higher ups.

I know there are jerks that are LEO's. There are also (more)jerks that are civilians. It is a military type situation and for those of you that were in the military know sometimes you have to do things you don't really want to do. If you don't you are out of a job. Same with cops.

I agree there are major problems with the administration and some of these problems are going to be a real pain for us, probably in the near future. On the other hand, just because a few buttheads wear a badge not all of them should be lumped in the same pile. They're not all bad guys.
 
Seems to me like Gun owners a have plenty of things to really be worried about, and the local cop is not one of them.

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sorry if the rest of my original post offended anyone, but up above is my point. I felt that GLV's post was designed to further the wedge between LEO and US and to reinforce any distrust that some TFL members have of LEOs.
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[This message has been edited by Rob (edited June 04, 1999).]
 
Everyone here is required to remain civil, and that includes members, moderators and administrators.

You don't want to open up the "whining" topic.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
Hi George, my name is Gary and I'm a civilian too (anybody not military is a civilian - why do I feel like I'm at an AA meeting?).

Some LEOs develop that unhealthy Us v. Them attitude when they become hardened from dealing with nothing but the worse of mankind. Cynicism, arrogance, elitism, replaced the starry eye "want to help" spirit they had as rookies. Some outgrow it and figure, it's just a job. Others stay that way.

As far as I'm concerned, when it comes to the law, LEOs are not special and those who think they are had better wake up because when they're retired, those same laws will be enforced against them!

The Academy taught us that the police are part of the community we serve (no, we're not talking police state ala Orwell) and not apart from the community we serve. If you dislike the community, then you've got no business policing it because you're no better than an army of occupation.

What do the police want? Cooperation. If there's a crime, report it in a timely manner. Be a good witness. Testify if called upon. Don't second guess their action and crucify them because the media dogs placed them on that sacrificial altar for advertising (air time) dollars. When you're called to serve on a jury and believe the cop did right, vote for a conviction. Vote for a DA who will enforce the law. Don't tolerate crime and condone a criminal's conduct. Criminals should be not be idolized (Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid, yeah). If a cop did something nice, write his captain a letter. Smile and wave to the officer when he or she drives by.

Like Rob says, a lot of them are working stiffs trying to get by. A lot who I meet are also stuck and can't get out (read: No marketable job skills).

BTW, like everybody else here, I pay my own tickets.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
One of the things that really bugged me when I went through cop school was the "Us v. Them" mentality.

This is perpetuated by many departments that require their officers to work a lengthy period in the jails before they put them on the street. (Almost every sheriff's department around here makes them put in their time in the jails.) This is a mistake!
When all you handle in your daily life is criminals, you begin to associate everyone you handle with criminals! The average cop spends 95% of his time among everyday people. Citizens. In a jail there is the scumbag, or the L.E.O. (occasionally the visitors to the scumbag-- associate scumbags...)

The hard part of the job is not dealing with the A-Holes. It's not even the smiling and doling out uniform customer service to the occasionally undeserving populace. It's being able to consistantly know which mode to be in, and correctly decide every time.

This is not to say that cops are these saints that should be iconicized and we should throw parades for all the time. It's just to say that, beyond PAYING cops (and I mean pay a real, live salary!), they should be recognized as human, capable of making the mistake: "Oh, I'm sorry, I thought I was dealing with a scumbag, and took action on that. Oops."

Another thing I got tired of was the concept that cops are pseudo-military, or even para-military! (One instructor even espoused this!) We are *civilians*, and until that gets through a lot of cops' heads, the rift will grow.

Finally-- cut the cops some slack. Fester and get all watch-doggish, and you feed the vicious cycle of: the cops feel trodden-on, and feel the need to "take advantage" of anything they can get away with, causing the witnissing civilian to conclude that, in fact the cops *are* corrupt, and need to be ridden still harder. You want an answer? Pay better, raise the standards.

Um, so that this is not completely off-topic for this site: I saw, even TX, some guys in academy complaining about how "you never know *who* may have a gun on them, these days." And this is bad because....?

Us-them was never worse than when a cop implies or openly states that only cops should have guns.

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If you're *not* a member of the NRA, what *are* you doing to protect your rights to enjoy yourself on this Bulletin Board?
Do SOMETHING!
 
Everyone take a deep breath here...or I'll send Kodiac in to separate the wheat from the chaff! :)

One of the main purposes of The Firing Line is to bridge the widening gap between LEO and non-uniformed citizen. To that end, reasoned discourse on both sides is encouraged. The alternative is unacceptable to me and the generations to come.
Rich
 
If I may, I don't care for specal rights for anyone, just get the chief to sign off and you can get hi-cap mags! It is required in your job? I thought you where an LEO, how many BG's you have to shoot in one night? Whinning? I'm not whinning, I'm bit*hing. I spent over 20 years as an armed pro., but I am no longer good enough to have a hi-cap mag? Why, maybe because I was TRAINED to use the firepower that implys. How many police officers NEED to SUPPRESS with firepower. I thought we had SWAT teams for that. You know like the ones out side the school in Colorado who waited for the shooting to STOP. Sorry, you hit a nerve, if this must be deleted, so be it.

Rew
 
GLV:
Being in law enforcement, I can see where you are coming from. So I will attempt to respond to each of your points.

Us vs. Them: There seem to be so many situations where the the only friends the cops have is other cops. The reality is that a substantial portion of society does not like police. And then the street cop has to deal with his own administration, which at times seems to be his enemy too. It gets to be very frustrating, and the us vs. them mentality is a way of surving. Granted most of the public supports their police, but the average cop doesn't know about that.

I personally don't like police using the word "civilian" when referring to the public. We are not the military. So I don't have an argument with you there.

Driving. Believe me, we do get chewed on when the public complains about our driving. I hear about it every week in supervisor meetings. This gets noticed by admin. It is the most common complaint.

Talk about being the largest gang in the country. That's how the gangs refer to us. Police take that as a compliment. Besides, who do you want owning the streets? Local police or local thugs?

Bragging about new equipment bought from seizures. The truth is most departments don't have enough in their budget for proper equipment or training. Seizures, if properly done, can supplement a budget. I know that this has been abused, and that is wrong. With my dept. we are real sticklers about making sure we do a seizure absolutely right. We do not want to abuse anyone's rights. We aren't perfect, but we try hard to do things right.

I'll grant you that law enforcement has lots of problems. I don't know how to remedy them all. However, some of us are doing our best to do the best job we can for you, the taxpayer. You at least deserve that.

If you have any suggestions that may help, I'm open to them. I'll take all the help that I can get.

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If what you know, isn't what you do, then your training is incomplete.
 
Gary, I have been biting my tongue trying to stay out of this. But I must applaud your response. I especially agree with your second paragraph.

I will always give a policeman some leeway for their rare, but not nonexistent, bad behavior. There is no one group that has to endure the worse that mankind can produce than the police. They see people at their most vile worst. And I mean "ordinary" people. The respectable banker who has a few too many on his way home from work and is stopped by the police and perhaps charged with DWI can turned into an unrecognizable terror. I know this has to wear thin after a while and some few police, being absolutely no more superhuman than the rest of us, will succumb to it. It is also amazing to me that so few actually do.
 
On the matter of salary, some officers are really poorly paid. On the other hand, being hired by some agencies means instant middle class! It all depends on the area the officer chooses to work in.

Salary should also be viewed in light of living expenses in the area. Can you imagine being a Fed Protective Officer in NY City or the San Francisco Bay Area? Sorry pay and very expensive. Now, Las Vegas is good and homes are cheap there, but you gotta like the desert. Long Path's observation on salary is relevant.

That set aside, most LEOs don't like the new laws being passed and I suppose the perception that LEOs support all these anti gun measures is being generated by the Chiefs, Sheriffs and Administrators who don't risk their lives on the streets or owe their job to politics. (I use to have a theory that all Chiefs were related by blood - and this explained why they were all a**holes. Then I met some Chiefs in PA and they were nice, normal people. That theory was disproved). The same with some of these police organizations which jump on Sarah's Bandwagon. Politics.

Thanks to the NRA, the LEAA got a huge boost in starting up and the LEAA advocate for all of us here.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
I spent eleven years (total)in Germany. With my penchant for driving "above and beyond", I got to meet a lot of German cops.

Remembering these are the people (the Germans) who brought us two world wars and incredible atrocities, I went out of my way to be nice. Remarkably, in eleven years, I never met a cop who was nasty, impolite, or even curt - unless the situation required it. I was (and continue to be) amazed.

Now I have seen German cops beat the dog crap out of those who "just had to have some" (as Ranger used to say). But I never saw the cop start it - only finish it.

I believe the German cops have a much easier time of it than American cops do. Germans are unarmed, really indoctrinated with the "sheeple" attitude, and better schooled about driving and traffic laws than Americans.

Now, just to avoid the "If you like it better there...." crap. I didn't like it better there. Oh, the beer, girls, food, parties, etc. - all A-OK. But,
- cold, rainy climate, sort of "sub-artic".
- truly restrictive laws in every aspect of your life!
- total social pressure to comply with every rule, regulation, custom, and (of course) any and every "law" known to man.
- "Ordnung muss sein!" - There MUST be order! You DARE not deviate from any aspect of "order".

I guess one of the reasons I immediately rebel against much authority is I fear America is going the way of Germany. So, give me American cops. So long as they have integrity, obey the laws they enforce, etc., I'll let them do the job they have chosen to do.

Of course, if (as they age) the testosterone wears off and "the thrill is gone", it may be the steady paycheck, health benefits, retirement programs, etc. that keep them on their jobs - just like it is with us "civilians".

I think it might help to remember that we are much more alike than we are different.

Dennis
 
I have edited my original post, as it was misplaced. It should have been a private message, it certainly was directed at one person, not any group.

As a roving administrator at TFL I shouldn't have gotten into a personal discussion in a public forum.

I apologize to anyone who may have mistakenly thought that any of my comments (save what it left up there) were directed at them.

-Rob
Gun Owner.
Citizen.
LEO.

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-Essayons


[This message has been edited by Rob (edited June 04, 1999).]
 
DHH-
Your post was fine. No apology necessary.

Rob-
Class Act (as always)!

To All-
Carry on. This is a thread worth exploring. The responses from LEO's and LEO supporters are most heartening. There's *lots* of common ground here.
Rich
 
This discussion is pretty da*n good, and thank you George for starting it.
I've read all the posts so far, and I'm surprised at the civility(although a few have been editted) overall intelligence, and thought processes that have brought this discussion to where it is.
I wish that I could plagerize(sp?) Matt19's entire post and as I can't I'll just add "what he said" to it.
I've been a cop for almost 20 years now, seen alot, been there, done that. Now that they have me working with the "fng"s, I get a chance to assist in their training as I see fit. The first thing I tell each and everyone of them is to treat each person that they come into contact with, the same way they would want to be treated.
I also tell them that at any given time, 99% of the people can be an a**hole (aka situational a**holes)but that it doesn't mean that they are bad or are always that way. They need to be able to tell the difference between situational a**holes and terminal a**holes. You know, the ones that were born that way, will live there whole miserable life that way, and die that way! Learn to know the difference. And then I remind them of how close the unemployment line is.
I hope I didn't offend anyone here, this is just my .02
Stay Safe
 
Badge 627,

>I've read all the posts so far, and I'm surprised at the civility<

Remember, "An armed society is a polite society." Want to see uncivil? Go see the postings by the anti gunners over on the Rosie board. LOL



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John - NRA - Lifer
 
Personally, I've never had a bad experience with law enforcement. I guess it depends on where you are at. Just yesterday, I was at the Sheriff's office turning in my application for a CCW. I talked with one old deputy about his 1911 .45 and we both agreed another guy who was there before seemed to be a little off as he claimed to own 10 .45's, including a Clark longslide, but didn't recognize the single stack mags on the deputy's belt. The female deputy who took my prints carried an older, pebble finish Glock 17. We talked about that for awhile. When she related that she still had the old, non FML magazines, I gave her Glock's number and told her she could sell her pre-ban hicaps for probably double the cost to buy new, leo only, FML hi-caps from Glock. She appreciated how that would help her budget. My point being, both deputies were very friendly, comfortable talking guns with a "citizen" and totally cooperative in my applying for my CCW.
Since location may be a factor, this was Ft. Collins, Larimer County, CO.

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Dorsai
Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal
weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the
monarch of all he surveys.
-- Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
 
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