My latest theory on CURRENT gun manufacturing

Bud of mine got to tour the Remington Plant in Huntsville Alabama. He is not a gun person so he was not interested in the same things I was and did not ask the sort of questions I would.

He said the plant was divided into three sections. One a firing range, the second section for storage. They had a bunch of guns sitting around. The third section, which I assume was the same size as the other two, the machines and the assemblers.

The automated machines were making everything. I think it was frames, receivers, bolts, barrels. I got the idea small parts were contracted out, probably stocks, handguards, internal parts, springs, etc. If you saw someone, it was a single person picking up something that fell off the conveyor belt, walking around the other machining centers patrolling the area. He saw a barrel machine but it was all enclosed. Something went into, a barrel came out. He said the in process inspection technology was beyond anything he had ever seen before. Lasers and probes and God knows what else. The machines would tell the humans when a tool needed changing.

At the end of the production line were a bunch of 20 somethings standing around benches assembling guns from parts. I asked if he saw anyone with a file, and he had not. He did remark that no one had a chair, you stood all day and I assume, just put the things together from parts. No bench fitting at all. I will bet if someone brought in a special tool, it would be taken away.

Changes in production came from the Engineering Area. They would send instructions to the machines. I don't know what tool changes they needed, had to be some, but pretty much these machines are configured to use the tools they have, which can be a massive selection. The machines were run by programs. Someone goes through a checklist, makes sure the proper materials are being sent in, hits a button, makes sure what comes off the end of the production line is what is wanted.

Modern manufacturing uses very little "touch labor". I have examined pictures of old gun manufacturer's, lots of people, lots of in process inventory. Not what is going on now. Pretty much no in process inventory, everything is just in time. Very few people and the jobs are so simple that it takes very little time to train the monkey to do his job. Sort of the skill difference between a short order cook and a hamburger assembler at a fast food joint. It takes about 15 minutes of training and you are a fully trained hamburger assembler. Low wages too, less than 32 hours a week, total salary less than minimum wages at 40 hours a week.

You guys who hate Unions, they are pretty much gone. Gone are the well paying jobs with benefits. Welcome to immiseration of the working class. You wanted it, you voted for it, and now you got it. How is it with the kids and grand kids living with you because they can't afford an apartment with their salary? Where are they going to go when you kick the bucket?

Be careful what you ask for.
 
What is the acceptable failure rate for critical parts an a GE turbine aircraft engine?

Lookup "Six Sigma Quality" It is achievable.
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Six sigma out on the normal probability curve covers all but 3.4 instances out of a million. (The quickie version my agency got from a hot shot consultant was "One in a million.")
It is apparently not achievable in something as simple as a firearm made to sell for $5000.00
 
Here's the thing......

I recently completed a small workbench in my private office at home. I have embarked on a couple of projects that are intended to be profitable.

Above that little bench are these three words. Faster, Cheaper, Better.

Very tough to hit all three goals, they must be hit to be successful. We may not attain 100% on each of the three goals, but it's what to strive for.

Most will recognize the above being used heavily in the world of computers. Its my opinion that it applies to darn near everything. Drop faster from the mix and you have the real challenge.

Most any engineer can resolve an issue by throwing money at it. If one can do it better for less, the world beats a path to your door.
 
It's my experience that business's cut costs at the bottom. The bottom is the people that do most of the work. Cut costs at the bottom to increase profit at the top. The ones at the top are "educated", but not necessarily skilled.

I work at a union outfit. It has pros and cons. In my experience, the the less ambitious workers benefit greatly while the ambitious hard workers pay the price. On the plus side, decent wages and good benefits are also a result and those benefit everyone. I work hard and take pride in my work. It is a character trait of mine. That trait is unrelated to the structure of my workplace.
Happy, well trained, well payed employees are going to make a better product. Companies bring in more educated executives at the expense of the workers manufacturing the product.

This is my opinion mixed with life experience.
 
Manufacturing is a difficult process. Making sure everything is exactly right every time is very difficult. And expensive. That's why a Wilson or a Brown gun is more expensive than a standard production gun from another company; the consumer is paying for the engineering, the parts, and the eyes and experience of the worker. But for a lot of consumers, a standard production glock/ruger/smith is just fine for that consumer's intended use.

As far as the union slamming on here, I've got exactly one week of union experience in the IBEW. I'm totally green. And I've never seen such a hard working and skilled group of skilled tradesmen and tradeswomen in my life. They make sure it's right, every time. Perfectly cut pieces. Perfectly level. Correctly installed. Absolutely safe. And they help each other out, and keep each other safe. Including the guys like me who don't know anything.

I cut a piece of conduit for the first time this week. It wasn't a square cut. I handed it to the journeyman, who looked at it, looked at me, and basically said, nope, it's not right, do it again and make it right. He wasn't going to hang it, because it wasn't right and up to the standard. The customer probably wouldn't have noticed, but that didn't matter to him; he's a professional electrician. If you truly believe that's somehow communist or whatever, I'm going to suggest that you don't know what communism really is, and perhaps you ought to educate yourself about how Stalin treated people in Russia, or what's happening in Venezuela right now.
 
I have a challenge for you all.
Without using your smartphone or Funk and Wagnall...just from the foundation you write your comments from, Define "Quality"
 
Back to the OP's question...

I mentioned before a few reasons workers from the firearms industry don't always join in on gun forums. Here are some more:

Trolls. A person who works for Kimber or Ruger, for example could catch a lot of undeserved flack from whiners or trolls.

Wisdom. Sometimes there are things you just can't say. If there is a re-org at work or an ongoing issue with a dept. It's not wise to talk about that on a public forum where word can get back to co-workers or bosses.

Example: You post on a thread that the reason so many sights come loose on the pistols is because the of the 3 people who work on that one is a heroin addict, the other going through a divorce and the third comes in drunk and nothing he does is good till 10 a.m. So the boss hears of this and wants to know who these people are. Or worse your co-workers come to you and want to know how you could do that to them. Word gets around that you're ratting folks out and etc.

Example two: Word is all over the forums that a certain gun made by the place you work is not drop safe, or is prone to ka-booms with 40 S&W. The internet erupts! You can't resist. You say that the company has known about this for years but is hiding the extent of it but will fix it. Folks know you know the inside scoop! Your words get around. A couple of weeks later the boss calls you in. Turns out the post you did was widely read. 7 police depts. that had issues with the guns have filed suit against us and the State Attorney General has called you in to produce evidence. Oh and starting next Monday you'll be working as a custodian graveyard shift. It's less money than you make now but enjoy the 10 cent an hour shift differential.

Just a couple of examples.

tipoc
 
One other point, "monkeys" don't build things. Human beings do.

A boss once came up to me after I had screwed something up at work one time. He said "This is so simple a monkey can do it!" I told him to get the monkey then and let me go on home. I also told him it made him more qualified to do that job than the one he had. You can't let bosses insult you or others.

tipoc
 
I have a challenge for you all.
Without using your smartphone or Funk and Wagnall...just from the foundation you write your comments from, Define "Quality"
Click to expand...

That's a good question.

tipoc
 
I don't follow other forums much.There are a couple of 4WD ones I visit occasionally.
If this were a fine dining forum,I doubt many restaurant employees would describe the rotting food Gordon Ramsay discovers in the walk ins.
If it were a health forum I doubt we would have many hospital employees talk about amputating wrong limbs or getting blood types wrong or spreading human "Mad Cow Disease" because the autoclave did ot kill the prijons on the instruments,and those colonoscopes,if you only knew.....The anesthetists don't post about what you did while you were under.
If this were a forum about pickup trucks,I doubt you'd get inside dirt about the auto mfr's and the employees smoking dope and hanging out at the bar on the clock.

Dysfunctional families keep secrets.

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WE,the customer,find our disappointments via our expectations.

I'm sure the Old Guard S+W would have remained happy making fine,highly finished Old School Revolvers.And I'm sure the Old Guard S+W Revolver Customer would still buy all of them the retirement income could afford.

And,if that remained the focus of S+W products,the doors would close and S+W would be no more. Like Colt Revolvers and High Standard 22 semi autos.
How affordable is an Ithaca 37,new,these days?

The market for the S+W fine revolver discovered the Glock,and the 1911,and the AR.
If you are S+W,and you want to survive,maybe you do what you can to keep the revolver business viable,and,you MIGHT not meet all the customer expectations.But remember how close S+W was to death,after they caved to anti-gun forces.
Now S+W makes polymer striker semi-autos to compete with Glock.A Shield can be had in the $300+ range and its one of the top choices for a Volksgun.
At Hi-Point price.
And S+W is making AR's and 1911's.
Julie Golob just went to France and won a World Championship,with others,of course. That is good marketing.

You just are not going to put a deep,fine polished blue on a polymer frame.
Or an AR. 1911 BBQ guns are a niche market. But you CAN sell some $700-+ 1911's.
Despite our laments,S+W is ,or appears to be,thriving in a market where...You tell me?,Are Colt,Ruger,and Win(by what ever name) Rem,Savage,any healthier than S+W?

One definition of quality,I credit a Juran TQM seminar for:

Its a feeling....that the customer has after spending the dollar on the product.
That is the ultimate measure.

Some might feel an optically polished titanium handled toothbrush is quality,at $1412 each. But few will buy ANY $1412 toothbrush.
BIC does pretty well selling lighters,pens,and disposable razors. Why? They have the right Qualities to become the customer's choice.

Might S+W experience some chaos and turmoil transforming from an "Old Joe" traditional S+W Classic Revolver Co with LEOS being a major market that died,to a Semi Auto M+P modern method production Co? I expect so.

I expect Old Joe grumbles and resists. "John Henry was a steel drivin man"

But the one handgun,I don't really need,but I just WANT,is a S+W 45ACP Shield.....FWIW.
 
Quality is relative IMO. It can be associated with cheap things, expensive things, durable things, and things intended to be thrown away. Price does not always reflect quality. Quality can come from any nation.

Has quality taken a drastic downturn? Or, has modern technology given us an easier way to share our experiences?

I've been lucky, I guess. My purchases have been of a quality level that is acceptable for what I paid.
 
I have a challenge for you all.
Without using your smartphone or Funk and Wagnall...just from the foundation you write your comments from, Define "Quality"
Click to expand...

That is a good question, and I am not trying to be a smart arse or a brand basher here as I have always been fond of Ruger firearms, but I'll tell you what I don't call it...

1) I don't call it a new revolver with a flat spot on the rear edge of the cylinder that measures almost a quarter inch along the edge and extends 3/8 up the side of the cylinder.

2) I don't call it a new revolver with nearly a 16th of an inch of daylight showing between the top of the barrel and the bottom of the dovetailed front sight blade.

3) I don't call it a revolver whose grip panels do not follow the contour of the frame and extend a 16th of an inch below the bottom on only one corner of one side, and the other corner of the other side. That also wears medallions that are canted differently panel to panel.

All three revolvers purchased new in a twelve month period at a little over $2K out of pocket.
The first one Ruger replaced without any issues, and the third one as well but not without a failed attempt at correcting it and a couple of months in between.
The second one I was told is as it is engineered to be along with a flat refusal to discuss it further, really.
They did at least offer a brass bead option for free since I did not care for the FO that came on the revolver.
The brass bead sight is only marginally better than the FO one regarding the gap between the blade and barrel.

I don't call that quality and I'm not inclined to purchase any more new Ruger firearms.
 
I don't call that quality and I'm not inclined to purchase any more new Ruger firearms.
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Bingo.
And I've considered Ruger "Very Good" for decades. My last one was a Lypsey
44 SPL. I'm happy with it.

As I was told at the Juran seminar:" We can use focus panels,surveys,accumulate and analyze data,...but it all boils down to how the customer FEELS about the dollar spent on your product"
 
From personal experience, all I can say is that when you pay people less than a wage to live and enjoy themselves on, all it breeds is the attitude of "who cares?" whether the rate is fair or not.
 
Gucci said it best:
"The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory."
 
NateKirk,I understand your point.Have you considered the economic realities of your point?

I understand there is the us vs them suspicion that we are victims getting screwed by the greedy corporation ....etc. That's real easy.Who made the decision to apply for and accept the job? You shook hands on an agreement when you took the job.
Economic fact: Every job has a certain "value added" to the product. If you are a total cost,not wage,of $25 an hour to the company,and your operation represents 25 cents to the shipped wholesale price of the product,you must do at least 100 per hour for the company to break even.But its not a non-profit organization.You have to be a player on the team of making money.
Getting hired does not entitle you to anything. You have to be part of the bottom line.No private enterprise exists to subsidize your life.
And no,life is not fair.Its not supposed to be.

If screwing down screws or flipping burger only represents $10 per hour to the business,they cannot pay you 12,or you cost them $2 an hour.

So smile,do the job that sucks in a way that shows you are a great candidate to advance to a better job.Good help is hard to find and the company may leverage you into making lots more money for them.

Sad reality,maybe not fair,but true...your personal life and challenges don't add to the product value.
Somebody else wants your job and will work for your wage.

And you can find a better job,maybe. If not,be grateful for what you have.
Got a cellphone? I don't. Got pay TV? I don't.etc. I'm not complaining.I'm getting by.
Detroit WAS the pride and joy of USA. Lots of good paying long term jobs.
You tell me what happened. Did those good wages,bennies,and security make every employee proud,dedicated and productive?
 
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Quality is relative...
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Quality is not relative. Quality is the measurement of how a product meets the internal requirements. Tolerance, performance, fit, finish, feeling, color, durability, etc...

Customer Quality is how well a product meets your customer's requirements.

Many companies build super high quality products. How many hear and respond well to the customers' changing demands? Those are the companies and products which make us happy.
 
May I just say that I appreciated HBiC's insight into the world of high quality manufacturing, almost makes me wish I had done that instead.
 
I like where HiBC went except companies want to be more successful than that. On one side people are a cost of doing business and I'm not sure that 4 times value is exactly right, but it is close. I could go into value of work, etc, but I won't, but there is some requirement that worker and engineer work together to improve worker value. Understand, this looks like some


All that said, there is real value in having workers that are high enough paid or have good enough incentives to be able to own the company's products. This creates pride in a persons work, understanding of the end user and inate ability to inspect for customer quality items. Also workers must feel empowered to stop production for poor quality. That reduces final QC work which reduces worker value and customer quality.


On these forums, I hear a lot about company A must not do QC anymore. It would be easy to find an employee who agrees with you. The problem is random inspectors catch too little when pressured to ship and too much when pressured for quality and this has little to do with what actual customers care about.

Inspectors will hone in on process limitations like finish color on a Glock being 1/2 shade off, but miss that sights were not installed. Essentially, they get used to holding a line on process variables and miss the abnormals that customers expect them to find.

What you really want is experienced people at each process who understand when the process changes and react quick to changing it back...basically tolerance reduction through adjustments. Then you want final inspection to be a handful of typical customer interactions like:
1) Confirm gun unloaded
2) Function check all safeties
3) Fire 5 round group at 15 yards
4) Confirm unloaded
5) Field strip looking for wear or poor appearance
6) lube and assemble
7) Pack and include signed target
 
That is the goal, unfortunately, the process does not always deliver the desired result.

Also, the focus on the process virtually ensures the workers will have little or no pride in their work. Business wants a process where they can hire monkeys off the street (literate, but monkeys) and they will follow rote instructions (procedures) and produce perfect products.

But monkeys are monkeys, some will actually care about what they do, learn skills and try to perfect them, and some will not. Some will only do as little as it takes to get by. The drawback to a union shop is that the "bad" monkeys are just as protected as the good ones, and they get equal pay for doing poor work, which affects the morale of the good ones, adversely.
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Right on the head. Folks being hired where I worked with no experience, no mechanical aptitude, expected to produce quality parts with minimal scrap and the big goal MEET PRODUCTION RATE. They would hire folks who have never seen a caliper, micrometer and no idea about decimal point dimensions. The machine I operated required a skill level of 2-3. They held me at level 1 because of personality conflicts with management and not my job performance. BS in the work place. The more they took away from me the less I cared about quality parts.
 
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