My latest theory on CURRENT gun manufacturing

S

Sevens

New member
I am gonna sound like a cranky old man, I won't deny that, only defend myself by saying that I am mid-40's of age with almost 30 years in buying, owning, shooting and thoroughly loving handguns.

I totally agree that some things about gun manufacture today are fantastic and inspiring-- especially the wide range of offerings and low prices.

But sorry, QC and final inspection are, let's choose a word: REVOLTING
It's like they almost don't do it at all and they ship it out and let the retailer or the end buyer handle all the final inspection, use warranty to make the product ready for sale.

If I were to name one to pick on, Smith & Wesson SO MUCH, but not the only offender.

However, none of the above is the actual point I wish to make in this thread.

My thoery on gun manufacturing today is that I want to guess that every employee hired in this industry must have a hardcore confidentiality clause that they are required to sign and it is being energetically enforced.

I can't think of any other way to explain how hun forums, blogs, comment sections and Facebook is bursting with the latest face-down QC FAILURE but yet these same venues of angst never, and I mean never have a poster that shows up to say "yes, I worked there 3 years ago and the process was..."

Closest we get is the occasional guy from years LONG gone by. Recently in the S&W forum we had a gent who told us that he was one of the last men to fit the 52 pistols... he told us that he'd still to this day never shot one and certainly couldn't afford one in 1986 when he was building them, given the $6 an hour rate of pay he was at.

Just tonight my shooting buddy took delivery of the BRAND new to market M&P 2.0 Compact... got it home to discover that something definitely wasn't right inside. Turned out to be a simple assembly fail, a spring well out of it's proper place. Minor-- nothing to an astute gun tinkerer but a total warranty return to much of the buying public. This bothers me, this seems to be the "new normal" and it's an epidemic.

And we never ever ever see a post that says "I work there and this is what we ship today because ______"

I think it's an enforced confidentiality order because I sure don't believe that the labor is paid well and elects to make a career shoveling these unfinished products out one door, through a loop and back inside under the door labeled "warranty."
 
I can tell you that you're not far from the truth.

Couple years ago I worked with a guy who spent 2 years at Ruger during the post Sandy Hook gunpocalypse. He worked 2nd shift and was paid $10.50/hr. The only way he was able to pay bills and buy guns himself was the fact that due to demand for guns at that time, he was working 20 hours OT a week at $15.75/hr.

He told me that supervisors didn't care if a part made was out of specification on the print, if they wanted to ship 100 guns that night, they were shipping them regardless of quality.

After he told me all this stuff, I was amazed that Ruger could even make useable guns with that kind of operating mentality. I'd expect that type of activity from Cobra or Jennings, but not Ruger.

It's not only the actual manufacturing processes going on at Ruger he disliked, it was management as well. I've encountered this myself, but I'm higher skilled and higher paid than him, but I can imagine at $10+/hr you're not even treated like a human being. He said he'd told his supervisors there that he was "working for another job" and the response he got was, "Good luck that that!"

Were it me, because I know how to talk to people in the workplace and not sound like a robot, I'd have said, "That's too bad, we really need you" or "I wish you the best."

Outside of Ruger, I've heard similar issues from Sig Sauer that management there is nearly Satanic.

I don't know where in the gun factory the highest labor is. I assume companies like Big Horn Armory, Magnum Research, Freedom Arms, etc. pay their employees well, but that's because their work is kind of low volume and requires higher skilled labor and because their prices are very high for their guns.

Personally, I don't like buying guns from companies that are being run the way Ruger has been and others likely are, but when there's a gun or any product for that matter that I like and want, I buy it.

It's like watching the NFL: I know I'm supporting the Beast that's killing the industry, but I can't help it.

Oh, another thing about Ruger is they're not union. I don't think any gun manufacturer is, almost like machine shops today. If you're skilled and you're not in a union, you're just going to get....

EDIT: And as far as confidentiality agreements go... I don't think that's the case. I think the reason we don't hear from people who recently just got out of the gun companies is they're too busy doing other things and don't have the time or inclination to speak to what they saw.

Like that guy from Ruger I knew, he's not the type to get home and go on the internet and bash the company. He'd rather spend that time with his wife and kids or, you know, out shooting.
 
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My experience definitely seconds that Ruger has had major QC problems in recent years, probably from cranking out so many guns after Sandy Hook and having to hire so many extra workers. Against my own advice I got another couple of them recently, and so far, no problems,so maybe quality is improving with slower demand. But it sounds like management is bad as well.

I just had a Trijicon night sight go dark after only two weeks, and read of other quick failures for that formerly-top brand as well, so it's not just guns.

Smith (Bodyguard.380) and SIG (P250 and TWO P238s) have also been guilty, so it's not just Ruger. I haven't bought Taurus or Kel-tec in years, but those have always been lesser brands. I avoid Kahr as well.

Who do I still trust? Beretta, Glock, classic SIG, HK, and yes Smith& Wesson, because their service is so fast if anything goes wrong, and they pay shipping both ways. Same with Springfield.
 
In my experience, most comments on gun forums regarding
Ruger's customer service have universally been good to great.
 
OK folks, I worked for a gun parts manufacturer. Our print dimensions went out to 4 decimal places. .0000 If a part was a couple of tenths out of spec it was out of spec. Was the part usable, absolutely. Example print states 1.250 +/- .002 now the part measures 1.2475. QC wants us to scrap the part being it is .0005 undersized. Does that hurt the function? NO, QC had their final prints with a much larger tolerance range than we had on the floor. Many a time parts that the operator scraped were put back into the mix. Granted things happen. At the end of the month we would have orders for 7,000 carrier assemblies for 4 or 5 customers. Mistakes happen, unfortunately. Problem is when parts are delivered and the customer finds a bad part/assembly they reject the entire order. Either the entire lot gets shipped back or someone has to go to the customer and inspect the entire lot of parts. No matter how you shake it it costs everyone money in the end. Perhaps the manufactures feel in the long run its cheaper to pay round trip shipping and fixing whats broke. I know its not the right thing to do as a consumer but that's today's world
 
Confidentiality Clause

Any position where the employee has any real responsibility and knowledge of company policies and operations requires a confidentiality clause contract.

The employee can choose not to sign it, and the company can choose to part ways with the employee if they don't agree to sign.

Sadly its the way of the world in business today.
 
TruthTellers, great post thank you.

All I can add is, most corporations today are run by accountants and attorneys. As necessary as this is, is not decent deal for today's consumer. Today's business model often is. Just ship the product out, right or not, as it's cheaper to have it returned for warranty than to make everything perfect the first time:(
 
When the last three Spanish large scale gun manufacturers (Astra, Star, Llama) closed their doors, an entire community of firearm artisans was left jobless. Too bad we couldn't have had them all immigrate here to the U.S..
 
Maybe I can shed some light.
My growth in the machine trade was about being mentored by mold makerswith old school atitudes. Like "You have NO tolerance.Hit it dead nuts"
We worked in an R+D function,and we were way ahead of any tolerance studies.
And I learned many things that come under the heading of "craftsmanship"
That is what many of you are lamenting. I understand.
Back in the 80's,90's a lot of things changed.
American manufacturing ,automotive in particular,was in trouble.Quality issues.The Japanese were putting out way fewer defective units.
There was a Quality Guru named Deming who wrote a book "Out of the Crisis"
He is celebrated in Japan as the force that taight them Statistical Process Control,Continuous Improvement Training,etc. Juran and Crosby were two othe quality gurus.
Pretty much,they said you cannot inspect and rework quality into your product.
Refine your processes to make only good parts.
That is one factor.

Now ,here is another. Geometric dimensioning and tolerancing. Remember the philosophy of "You have no tolerance!" Well,you cannot stay in business that way. It drastically runs up cost.
Think back to WW2 and our production capabilities. To put it in very simple terms,you can drill clearance holes for 1/4 in screws .251. We might think "ThatsQuality"
But if you have a bolt pattern of 8 screws,your positional tolerance is not achievable. Your assemblers will fail..Now,if you open those holes up to .271 to .281, you gain positional tolerance,you gain hole size tolerance,your B-17 still flies,and shot up B-17's can be cannibalized to keep other B-17's flying.
A bonus is,the parts are slightly lighter. It matters on aircraft.A gun example:AR hinge and take down pins.Measure a bunch. They will all be right at .245. Now pin gage the holes in the receiver. They will all be .250/.251.
And of the mix and assortment of uppers and lowers I have put together,the pins pushed in. And the upper and lowers had play. Annoying,but the guns work fine.As designed.I have made .249/250 custom pins. It felt better,but...so what?

GD+T is a manufacturing fact. It is the international language of documents. It is the contract for good parts vs bad.

OK Another factor.International Manufacturing Standards,such as ISO.
I worked in a consumer product manufacturing co .In order to sell product in the European Market,we had to achieve ISO 9000 Certification. A team of ISO auditors comes in and audits everything .At the core is documentation. Every tool,every machine,all calibration,every process,all training,etc must be documented and it must be the repeatable way of doing business.

And so here is the problem with Old Joe,his apron,his jewelers loupe,his stones,his files,his bins of parts to selectively fit,his skills and experience...
The guy you want to have build your gun.
He is a dinosaur. He does not fit anymore. ISO 9000 wants to get exactly the right part made by exactly the same process 10 years later.What happens when Old Joe has a heart attack?
The manufacturing process has to be robust enough that a new EEOC employee can be hired,trained,and for prevailing wage,produce the same product as Old Joe. Exactly.

This reality ...unavoidable reality,forced a redesign of the entire industry.

Now,back to Deming. In his book,"Out of the Crisis",(forgive me,its been decades since I read it) he lists seven deadly sins that will destroy a company.

I can't recite them. But one is "Short Term Thinking" Like making decisions to hit economic numbers. Like forcing substandard product out the door post sandy Hook.
Using Quotas. You must make 3000 guns today! But they accepted a lot of bad parts from a supplier. Beating the employees to get the 3000 units is not the answer.
Stopping production is the answer.Lot tracing and quarantining all bad lots is the answer. Contacting your supplier and saying "Hey,you sent bad parts.This is the problem. I have lines down,production has stopped. You are costing me money. How many good parts can you put on a Lear Jet and have them here by morning?
Point: Human weakness still exists. Poor management decisions still exist. If a Manufacturer sends bad product out the door,trust is broken.Everyone suffers.

I have been "the guy" who processed non-conforming parts and documented problems back to the supplier.

Another reality is technology. MIM,polymer,Ruger's casting processes,Aluminum pressure casting,fineblanking....CNC

Each presents opportunity to innovate and present new generation products.
And each presents technological problems,weaknesses,and growing pains.

Example,MIM is good technology,but you cannot assume that good part geometry for a machined forging will work for an MIM part.
Parts must be designed for the technology.

It does not work to simply say "We can save 36 cents per part by going MIM instead of machining"

We get really good guns for pretty cheap.A 45 ACP Shield can be had for the price of a RIA 1911. TheShield will hold 7+1,just like the1911. It weighs 23 OZ and rides well IWB.
It is nice to have the option.
 
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Posts blasting companies by disgruntled employees or former employees have little credibility for me. Posts that use "I heard" as attribution for claims, especially those denigrating major companies have none.

TT your claims that working people in non-union shops are universally !?&$#+ and the implication that these shops are inferior is not valid in my experience, and I spent years on both sides. More importantly, your vitriol doesn't belong here.

There is no question that in the seller market we've had in firearms over the last several years quality control has suffered. The companies that make it right when there are issues, like Ruger and S&W, are the ones I support.
 
The whole reason for the QC shift is the consumer. Companies would still be producing Colt Python level finishes if consumers would pay for them. If you walk into a gun store and there are 2 guns you're looking at that have basically the same specs but one costs $300 and the other costs $400 which one are the majority of consumers going to buy? Just like every industry out there - it's a race to the lowest cost of producing.

I have no idea regarding confidentiality clauses but I'd guess a big part is that the majority of the workers aren't passionate gun people. Just likely 90% of the people reading this, they chose the job because it was available and they had the skills necessary to get hired.

On top of that I'm guessing most any manufacturers don't want line employees posting company about processes all over the web. I'm sure all the large gun companies have communications, marketing, and investor relations departments that would get upset if Joe Schmoe down in production was posting about how QC has really taken a hit over the last quarter.
 
We should also remember there was vaunted previous era of better quality. When I was a youngin, if you bought a Colt you had to have work done just to make the thing work semi-reliably. Thats one reason Kimber did well initially. With pistols, the view was that 1/3 or so would have to be sent back initially with a problem, it would be fixed, and then your firearm would be fine.

S&W and Ruger have great customer service because they need to.
 
Just ship the product out, right or not, as it's cheaper to have it returned for warranty than to make everything perfect the first time
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Deming proved that to be false. No one in US manufacturing wanted to listen to him, so he took it to the Japanese; they took it to heart and suddenly folks were buying Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc, because they were better built and didn't have issues. There's non need for a post mfg QA/QC if it is built right from the beginning.
 
When the last three Spanish large scale gun manufacturers (Astra, Star, Llama) closed their doors, an entire community of firearm artisans was left jobless. Too bad we couldn't have had them all immigrate here to the U.S..
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The fact is,International Quality Manufacturing Certifications dictate there is very limited place for skilled artisans .
In today's manufacturing environment,there may be people who work in the "deburring" dept. While as much as possible will be done by vibratory bowl processes,MAYBE a file might be used .

Then those parts,the whole lot,is qualified as good. Some parts may be scrapped,but the lot that passes is "good"

When those parts go to the line for final assembly,they come out of the bin and go into the assembly.I would expect files,stones,etc to be BANNED from the line. No modification or "fitting" is acceptable .
If the parts don't work,you modify the process upstream to only make good parts.

Antonio from Spain who can file and fit ,while he has my respect, has joined wheelwrights,coopers,and blacksmiths. Wondeful skills that do not fit in modern manufacturing.

To the OP: Generally speaking, QA final inspections are sometimes used as a temporary patch when a line has a problem. The point is to prevent "escapes" of bad product and to pinpoint where corrective action is needed.

The problem to be corrected is upstream of where it is identified.

When the inspector finds a bad unit,you have lost the effort and material invested. Now you will lose the price of rework. Not done yet!! You will lose the profit you could have made making more product if you weren't wasting time and material on rework.
Finding bad product via final inspection is the path to bankruptcy.Its too late.You cannot inspect quality into a product

You have a bad product because upstream,you had a process out of control. It IS appropriate to,for example,plug gauge a reamed hole at the reaming operation.You may discover,over time,that variation increases after 40 holes on the reamer.
So,what to do? Work with speeds,feeds,lubes,reamer variants to refine the process.Great! Up to 60 holes!!! Now put it in the process that a lot of parts is 60 parts,or specify a tool change at 60 parts. Now,you might specify gauging the hole the first three holes,at 20 parts,40 parts,and 60 parts.
Those results are recorded. You should not have any problems with those holes .
Your operators must use the correct machine,the correct fixtures,the correct cutters,the correct processes. All of these tools come from the tool crib and have a documented qualification and calibration history.
All blueprints and procedures are pulled from the computer as the latest revision that day.Documents are void after 24 hours. All material travels with certification.

Processes like this are real.Demanded by Quality manufacturers.
When I was working QA,I could take a bad part and tell you it was made June 9,2010 at 2:30 AM by Joe Wink on the #3 Haas mill.
And Joe Wink would be interviewed to find out how/why.

Ford teamed up with Mazda There was a tranny they both built. The USA Ford trannies failed a lot. The Mazdas did not. Studies revealed the Mazda trannies showed almost zero variation.All parts the same.
Not so the Ford USA parts. Same trans,same cost. Deming had taught the Japanese . He was from Cody,Wyo. His wife was a statistician. He helped post WW2 Japan recover. In Japan,they celebrate Deming Day.
In USA,Deming offered his best. Our suffering industries know too much,have too much ego ,and do not have time for Deming's BS.
 
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old bear said:
TruthTellers, great post thank you.

All I can add is, most corporations today are run by accountants and attorneys. As necessary as this is, is not decent deal for today's consumer. Today's business model often is. Just ship the product out, right or not, as it's cheaper to have it returned for warranty than to make everything perfect the first time:(
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You're exactly right. While I don't work in the gun manufacturing industry (sadly), I still see the same types of people in management positions who don't understand manufacturing. Take my latest manager for example: no machining skills whatsoever nor understanding, but he managed a shipping warehouse, so he's qualified to manage a machine shop in the eyes of business and accounting graduates who run the company.

There's too many people with worthless degrees making decisions that don't make sense in all areas of manufacturing. At this point, I think most companies are just getting by because of legacy orders and the factories run themselves because their allegedly expendable employees keep things running.
 
K_Mac said:
Posts blasting companies by disgruntled employees or former employees have little credibility for me. Posts that use "I heard" as attribution for claims, especially those denigrating major companies have none.

TT your claims that working people in non-union shops are universally !?&$#+ and the implication that these shops are inferior is not valid in my experience, and I spent years on both sides. More importantly, your vitriol doesn't belong here.

There is no question that in the seller market we've had in firearms over the last several years quality control has suffered. The companies that make it right when there are issues, like Ruger and S&W, are the ones I support.
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Yeah, okay man. You tell the employees at Ruger producing parts for one of the largest and most profitable gun manufacturers in the country that if they were union, they'd be making $2-3 more per hour if they were in a union and then ask them after saying that if they feel their getting... you know what.

For someone who makes way more than the Ruger employees, I can say that money isn't an issue, but having a union rep I can go to and say to them, "My company's tool room is disorganized as hell, the tools are in horrible condition because they're not store properly and because of that, my production is suffering and its not my fault. I keep telling supers and managers about it, but they're not doing anything. Think you could talk to them?"

Union rep comes in and would take care of it. Actually, if there was a union, it wouldn't have been a problem in the first place because unions get stuff done that we employees know needs resolved and the manager, sitting in his chair tossing a pencil at the ceiling, doesn't give a crap about.

Yes, I've actually seen this.

And I can say, that out of all the non-union shops I've been in, they have all been inferior to the one union shop I've worked at. And those union employees were easily better machinists than most of the non-union machinists I've worked with.
 
The manufacturing process has to be robust enough that a new EEOC employee can be hired,trained,and for prevailing wage,produce the same product as Old Joe. Exactly.
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That is the goal, unfortunately, the process does not always deliver the desired result.

Also, the focus on the process virtually ensures the workers will have little or no pride in their work. Business wants a process where they can hire monkeys off the street (literate, but monkeys) and they will follow rote instructions (procedures) and produce perfect products.

But monkeys are monkeys, some will actually care about what they do, learn skills and try to perfect them, and some will not. Some will only do as little as it takes to get by. The drawback to a union shop is that the "bad" monkeys are just as protected as the good ones, and they get equal pay for doing poor work, which affects the morale of the good ones, adversely.

Union contracts "level the playing field" in many ways. Just as poor workers are protected (unless/until they actually violate their contract) good workers cannot be rewarded in any substantial way, as long as they are under union contract.

As for confidentiality clauses, virtually ever labor contract these days has something like that built is as boilerplate. Employees sign, agreeing not to divulge/discuss "sensitive business information" or "proprietary" information, or they don't become employees. Trust me, information about how your company makes parts absolutely falls under those clauses.
 
I do not want to name my former employer. It has been quite successful for well over 100 years. It combines old school war production efficiency and adaptability with modern methods.
Among the partners and customers of their work are Caterpillar,GE and RollsRoyce aircraft engines,fuel injection systems,including hi-pressure,industrial valving and controls for power plants,chemical plants,and refineries. I have machined parts there for old US military submarines and aircract.
On the floor,at the machine,many parts were inspected with Jo-Block stacks and camparato stands that operated in the 10 to 50 millionths range.
They operate an academy to train young folks into the required skills.
In house clean room metrology lab. Many parts rquire a first part inspection in the CMM clean room.
In house extensive heat treating.Excellent in house tool and cutter grinding
In house doctor,dentist,and even a barber. In house very good cafeteria.
Great profit shaing,bonus,and retirement.
Mediocre work ethic would get you replaced. A bad part out the door was a very serious matter.
I once(as a noobie) told an engineer I may have made a mistake on a part. That part was interceped as it was being delivered to a ship near Australia.
Response: Thank you for coming forward.
Every day I was aware that if our product failed,someone could be hurt or killed,or millions of dollars were at stake.
Example,the "Most Dangerous Catch" show,about arctic crab fisherman...I knew my work was in their engines.

I knew my work was in military aircraft and civilian aircraft. I was not a monkey. I won't say there were no monkeys . But most of us took pride.
And every part,every operation I did was in the database with my name on it.
Every part was lot traceable. Every lot every operation could be traced to the hour and operator

NON UNION SHOP.
 
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Unions are the epitome of socialist/communist doctrine, and have no place in the US.
If there is a problem the management should take care of it-if they don't then the company suffers.

As far as craftsmen being "dinosaurs," I agree. But, being a dinosaur in an age where people have absolutely no mechanical aptitude or abilities has allowed me to become wealthy.

The "modern" attitude that everyone should have a college degree in liberal arts or engineering leaves a whole bunch of graduates who have no real marketable skills. Yes, the bar has been set higher-but how many of those degreed people will take the janitor's job?
 
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