My Blown Up Rifle
- Thread starter Jesse Tischauser
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Glad you are okay!!Edward429451
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Sounds like you had a primer only squib load. Do you know what the load was supposed to be? Who chose and set up the charge weight? Him? Or he set up and you started loading later maybe...?
I am very skeptical of this. When I got my AR I asked if I should crimp and found out that hardly anyone crimps for an AR. Are we trying to say here that uncrimped ammo will blow up an AR? Surely there is more to this...
I am very skeptical of this. When I got my AR I asked if I should crimp and found out that hardly anyone crimps for an AR. Are we trying to say here that uncrimped ammo will blow up an AR? Surely there is more to this...
Nope, but I don't doubt that loose bullets moving forward or backward in the case is very bad ju-ju. Will it blow up an AR? No, not by itself, but it opens the door to all sorts of bad things. Bullet set-back ......
A bullet loose enough to stick in the throat? possible? If the seating die was not set right, what's to say the sizing die was set right?
If the ammo was properly crimped, a "primer only squib" would only be a dud round, instead of a wrecked gun.....
Jesse Tischauser
New member
What's the definition of properly crimped .223? I can't push the round into the case by pushing it against my bench with my hands. Is that crimped?
I fired over 600 rounds of this load without any issues. I really wanted to blame myself and my lack of reloading skills but it really doesn't appear that I did anything wrong.
I fired over 600 rounds of this load without any issues. I really wanted to blame myself and my lack of reloading skills but it really doesn't appear that I did anything wrong.
How old are the dies?How clean has the brass been that was processed through it?I am not saying I know what happened,but maybe:
Brass with range dust embedded in it is a cutting tool called a lap and it will cut the hardest of steels.
The plan with a sizing die;it sizes the neck down undersize,then the expander plug sizes the brass up to the desired size.A wore out sizer die might not size the brass down enough to establish neck tension.
There is debate over whether a crimp is necessary in an AR.A lot of folks have never crimped for them,for thousands of rounds.
I could be wrong,this is seat of the pants guess:There are events that will make a blown primer or an expanded primer pocket or a stuck bolt,and there are events that wreck guns.The wrecked gun thing narrows down the possibilities.
While some crimp problem could contribute,maybe,proper neck tension would make that less a factor.You have ,more than one thing going on.
A progressive press is not the best choice for a loader who does not understand his equiptment and processes well enough to set it up .You might want to learn to load single stage first.
Glad you aren't hiurt.Climb back on that horse!But learn how to load safe.And.yeah,if you pull the trigger and something isn't right,stop.Make sure the hole goes all the way through the barrel,safely.Slow down a little.
Brass with range dust embedded in it is a cutting tool called a lap and it will cut the hardest of steels.
The plan with a sizing die;it sizes the neck down undersize,then the expander plug sizes the brass up to the desired size.A wore out sizer die might not size the brass down enough to establish neck tension.
There is debate over whether a crimp is necessary in an AR.A lot of folks have never crimped for them,for thousands of rounds.
I could be wrong,this is seat of the pants guess:There are events that will make a blown primer or an expanded primer pocket or a stuck bolt,and there are events that wreck guns.The wrecked gun thing narrows down the possibilities.
While some crimp problem could contribute,maybe,proper neck tension would make that less a factor.You have ,more than one thing going on.
A progressive press is not the best choice for a loader who does not understand his equiptment and processes well enough to set it up .You might want to learn to load single stage first.
Glad you aren't hiurt.Climb back on that horse!But learn how to load safe.And.yeah,if you pull the trigger and something isn't right,stop.Make sure the hole goes all the way through the barrel,safely.Slow down a little.
True.
But it sounds to me like the shooter missed the squib (thought it was an FTF, did not inspect the ejected round to see that it may have been "missing" the bullet")- and then chambered another round, and fired it with the squib in the barrel.
That'll certainly blow up...
Saltydog235
New member
Glad no one was more seriously hurt and that the only fatality was the rifle. Scarey situation you had there.
One hard and fast rule that I have always adhered to is that: If it doesn't feel right and you think there is the slightest chance a misfire or squib has occured, stop and fully check things out, its the only way to be 100% sure.
I don't shoot black guns much but you can always tell if a round has gone off as it should.
One hard and fast rule that I have always adhered to is that: If it doesn't feel right and you think there is the slightest chance a misfire or squib has occured, stop and fully check things out, its the only way to be 100% sure.
I don't shoot black guns much but you can always tell if a round has gone off as it should.
Jesse Tischauser
New member
Thanks for the advice. I personally think having a professional help adjust my dies is a much better way to learn to reload and get it right the first time than to look at a black and white manual that definitely does not give you the exact anything.
That is the problem with learning to reload. There is no right to do it. There are a bunch of ways to do it right and a bunch of ways to do it wrong. You can use a lot or a little powder and you can crimp from this to that range. You can load to this or that AOL. You could spend a year reading about it on the internet. Eventually you have to make ammunition and pull the trigger.
Jesse Tischauser
New member
This is great advice if you only shoot 100 rounds a year. I shoot 10,000+. Eventually you are going to have a failure with that quanitity of ammo, factory or reloads. I use a Dillon 650 to reload. It is equiped with a low powder sensor and I take my time when making ammunition to ensure that I see powder in every case. To be extra cautious I weighed every round and case gauged every round in my 800 round batch. That is 3 checks to see a bad case neck or any other defect with the brass. Unfortunately I didn't roll each round and inspect it or I may have caught one with a bad case.
The safest advice you can give someone is to not shoot at all.
Jesse Tischauser
New member
I went to the range and shot the rest of my reloads this morning which amounted to about 150 rounds. I was able to remount the Swarovski scope in the LaRue mount and it held a zero just fine. I am very excited about not having to spend another $2200 there.
I also ran a few tests with some of my loads to help answer your questions.
Someone asked if I heard anything when the one round went off. The answer was no. It felt like the rifle had been dry fired. This got me to thinking. I loaded a round with my preprimed brass exactly like the round that failed only I didn't use any powder. I then shot two of these rounds in my gun to see what happened. They felt like I was dry firing my gun. No bang, no nothing. I inspected the bullet/case relationship and there was no noticeable movement of the bullet out of the case with either of the rounds.
I also did a little experiment with crimps. I could not push the bullet of my reloaded ammunition into the case by simply taking a round by hand and pushing the tip of the bullet down onto the bench. So I then dropped a round into the chamber then stuffed a mag into the gun with the bolt locked back. I released the bolt so that the buffer spring would force a double feed to see if the bullet moved and the bullet did not. I then reracked the bolt and the bullet was pushed into the casing.
I was not sure if that was a bad thing for sure so I repeated the same experiment with a couple of rounds of Federal XM193. The bullet in the double fed XM193 did not move back into the casing after the 2nd time the bolt was cycled. It actually bent the casing at the shoulder.
So it is quite possible that my reloads need more crimp. Like someone posted earlier the debate between crimping .223 and not crimping .223 is never ending. Would a harder crimp have stopped this accident? Maybe? Not if the case neck was damaged and not if the previous round was a squib that actually sent the bullet into the chamber and not into the throat.
This thread on another forum lead to a discussion of squibs and how they sound/feel. Two other people commented that they recently experienced squibs and never heard anything just like waht happened to me here. They were lucky enough to have the next round that was run into the chamber hit the squib bullet stopping the gun from going into battery.
I also ran a few tests with some of my loads to help answer your questions.
Someone asked if I heard anything when the one round went off. The answer was no. It felt like the rifle had been dry fired. This got me to thinking. I loaded a round with my preprimed brass exactly like the round that failed only I didn't use any powder. I then shot two of these rounds in my gun to see what happened. They felt like I was dry firing my gun. No bang, no nothing. I inspected the bullet/case relationship and there was no noticeable movement of the bullet out of the case with either of the rounds.
I also did a little experiment with crimps. I could not push the bullet of my reloaded ammunition into the case by simply taking a round by hand and pushing the tip of the bullet down onto the bench. So I then dropped a round into the chamber then stuffed a mag into the gun with the bolt locked back. I released the bolt so that the buffer spring would force a double feed to see if the bullet moved and the bullet did not. I then reracked the bolt and the bullet was pushed into the casing.
I was not sure if that was a bad thing for sure so I repeated the same experiment with a couple of rounds of Federal XM193. The bullet in the double fed XM193 did not move back into the casing after the 2nd time the bolt was cycled. It actually bent the casing at the shoulder.
So it is quite possible that my reloads need more crimp. Like someone posted earlier the debate between crimping .223 and not crimping .223 is never ending. Would a harder crimp have stopped this accident? Maybe? Not if the case neck was damaged and not if the previous round was a squib that actually sent the bullet into the chamber and not into the throat.
This thread on another forum lead to a discussion of squibs and how they sound/feel. Two other people commented that they recently experienced squibs and never heard anything just like waht happened to me here. They were lucky enough to have the next round that was run into the chamber hit the squib bullet stopping the gun from going into battery.
I began reloading in the 1960's.I have mentored a lot of folks who have taken up reloading.
I have done some wildcat load development where I created my own loads.
I have felt some resistance to opening a bolt,but I have never stuck a bolt.I have made loose primer pockets and flattened,cratered primers,but I have not blown any.
Of the folks I have mentored,to the best of my knowledge,the record is the same.
To all of them,I say get at least two reloading manuals,read them,and follow the loading process described.
Murphy,of Murphy's law,will always show up.You need to recognize and deal with Murphy.You do that with an understanding of the basics.
Be very careful about who you pick for a mentor/teacher.
The undeniable fact is,the way you did it gave you a blown up gun.
Now,back where I started,did you buy new dies,or are they used?And I strongly suggest you get a single stage press,become a knowledgable,careful,single stage handloader,then when you have competence and understanding,put the efficiency of a progressive to work for you.
Even Cowboy shooters with sixguns have squib problems more frequently when they use progressive presses.I am not knocking progressives.They are a great thing.A person can only deal with so much at a time.When the basics of reloading are natural,then you can focus on the progressive process.You can recognize when something isn't right,and stop and correct it
Myself,something about the moniker Red Neck Tactical......
I have done some wildcat load development where I created my own loads.
I have felt some resistance to opening a bolt,but I have never stuck a bolt.I have made loose primer pockets and flattened,cratered primers,but I have not blown any.
Of the folks I have mentored,to the best of my knowledge,the record is the same.
To all of them,I say get at least two reloading manuals,read them,and follow the loading process described.
Murphy,of Murphy's law,will always show up.You need to recognize and deal with Murphy.You do that with an understanding of the basics.
Be very careful about who you pick for a mentor/teacher.
The undeniable fact is,the way you did it gave you a blown up gun.
Now,back where I started,did you buy new dies,or are they used?And I strongly suggest you get a single stage press,become a knowledgable,careful,single stage handloader,then when you have competence and understanding,put the efficiency of a progressive to work for you.
Even Cowboy shooters with sixguns have squib problems more frequently when they use progressive presses.I am not knocking progressives.They are a great thing.A person can only deal with so much at a time.When the basics of reloading are natural,then you can focus on the progressive process.You can recognize when something isn't right,and stop and correct it
Myself,something about the moniker Red Neck Tactical......
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Jesse Tischauser
New member
I bought the press and dies new.
I don't appreciate the fact that you keep wanting to blame my negligence or my good friends negligence of reloading for this failure. I have read at least 3 relaoding books and spent countelss hours researching reloading on forums just like this one.
The case hasn't even been removed from the chamber yet. It could very well be a bad case for all we know. As far as the single stage press goes. I own one of those as well but it only gets used to resize .40 S&W brass that has been shot out of Glocks.
I don't know anyone that loads their ammo for the competition that I participate in on a single stage press. It simply isn't feasible to reload that much ammo one at a time.
You can load just as safely on a progressive press as you can with a single stage press.
Jesse Tischauser
New member
What negligence do you speak of? Shooting too fast? Clearance drills too fast? Reloading to fast? Not crimping to mil spec? Not roll inspecting my ammo after I case gauged and weighed them? I think I have pointed out several things that could be changed to avoid this happening again but at this point there is absolutely no way to know exactly what caused the failure and I bet that there never will be. So when u tell me to OWN up to being negligent I am not really sure what you want me to OWN up to?
Considering variation in bullet and case weight, it is pretty well accepted that weighing completed rounds doesn't accomplish anything useful.
Also
Well, the manual contains the instructions for operating that machine. Using one's personal experience and the instructions, there is usually a setup verification that is done as part of a reloading "session". I'm not sure how someone could do any verification if the person who set it up the machine isn't present for each and every reloading session.
Remember, when you are reloading, you are responsible for the entire process. That includes procurement (component selection), work environment (no distractions), assembly (setting up dies, powder measure throw, etc.) and quality control (visual checking / gauging of finished rounds).
The idea of splitting this up, essentially making it a team effort instead of an individual effort, just sounds unusual. I'm not sure how it could be safe without the team being present.
I don't crimp the loads for my semi-auto .223 (Mini-14).
There is a school of thought that the "force" of the round chambering, along with getting bounced around in the mag, could have the potential to affect the OAL by shifting the bullet.
I've experimented with that theory (by measuring, natch), and I found no changes in my OAL. You can crimp, with or without a cannelure- but crimping can increase pressures, so you need to proceed accordingly.
I would respectfully suggest that you learn the reloading process before proceeding further- next time, have your buddy sit with you through the process and explain. It'll shorten the learning curve. Even though you had a knowledgeable reloader set up the press, sh** happens... sometimes the primer will not seat properly...sometimes the load will not meter correctly....and you need to be aware of it.
Nothing wrong with starting out with a progressive press- I did- but I used it (and often still do, with critical loads) basically as a single stage, slowly and deliberately.
There is a school of thought that the "force" of the round chambering, along with getting bounced around in the mag, could have the potential to affect the OAL by shifting the bullet.
I've experimented with that theory (by measuring, natch), and I found no changes in my OAL. You can crimp, with or without a cannelure- but crimping can increase pressures, so you need to proceed accordingly.
I would respectfully suggest that you learn the reloading process before proceeding further- next time, have your buddy sit with you through the process and explain. It'll shorten the learning curve. Even though you had a knowledgeable reloader set up the press, sh** happens... sometimes the primer will not seat properly...sometimes the load will not meter correctly....and you need to be aware of it.
Nothing wrong with starting out with a progressive press- I did- but I used it (and often still do, with critical loads) basically as a single stage, slowly and deliberately.
Jesse Tischauser
New member
I understand the reloading process. I have been doing it for two years. I have loaded at least 5,000 pistol rounds. I setup and tested and learned how to load the pistol stuff on my own with the help of manuals, fellow shooters, and I even talked to the tech guys at dillon once or twice.
This first batch of 800 rifle rounds was my only experience with rifle reloading which is why I had my friend setup my .223 dies to match his known load that I knew worked. I also wanted to use his load in case I ever needed to borrow ammo at a match out if state. It's always good to have someone with similar ammo or rifle or pistol as you close buy in case something breaks or you shoot more rounds than u expect. I check the amount of powder every 50-100 rounds, measure AOL and neck diameter occasionally especially at the beginning of a new session to make sure the machine hasn't reset itself.
In regards to weighing my loaded rounds I used all Montana Gold 55gr bullets and all Lake City preprimed/trimmed brass. There are variations in those weights but not a lot.
The weight of my loaded rounds varied 2-3 units (I can't remember if I was using grams or grains). A round without powder is almost 20 units lighter. I checked that yesterday because I thought the same thing. Maybe the powder weight is negligible and I didn't notice it but it is easily noticed on a scale. I know the dummy rounds I made for my pistol in 9mm (no powder or primer) did not weigh that much different.
Another fellow competitor of mine suggested shaking each round to hear that there is powder in the round. I may incorporate that into my next reloading session as well.
I really appreciate all of the criticism of my intelligence and ability to understand how to reload. The blown up rifle wasn't enough of a reminder that I need to pay more attention to every part of shooting from reloading to filling mags to pulling the trigger.
This first batch of 800 rifle rounds was my only experience with rifle reloading which is why I had my friend setup my .223 dies to match his known load that I knew worked. I also wanted to use his load in case I ever needed to borrow ammo at a match out if state. It's always good to have someone with similar ammo or rifle or pistol as you close buy in case something breaks or you shoot more rounds than u expect. I check the amount of powder every 50-100 rounds, measure AOL and neck diameter occasionally especially at the beginning of a new session to make sure the machine hasn't reset itself.
In regards to weighing my loaded rounds I used all Montana Gold 55gr bullets and all Lake City preprimed/trimmed brass. There are variations in those weights but not a lot.
The weight of my loaded rounds varied 2-3 units (I can't remember if I was using grams or grains). A round without powder is almost 20 units lighter. I checked that yesterday because I thought the same thing. Maybe the powder weight is negligible and I didn't notice it but it is easily noticed on a scale. I know the dummy rounds I made for my pistol in 9mm (no powder or primer) did not weigh that much different.
Another fellow competitor of mine suggested shaking each round to hear that there is powder in the round. I may incorporate that into my next reloading session as well.
I really appreciate all of the criticism of my intelligence and ability to understand how to reload. The blown up rifle wasn't enough of a reminder that I need to pay more attention to every part of shooting from reloading to filling mags to pulling the trigger.
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