My beef with the phrase "once fired brass"

[Nick_C_S]

Heh, the stuff we loaders find interesting

I just received 1000 pcs of 45 ACP+P brass from Starline. My favorite (and most expensive) way to acquire brass. It's zero-fired

I'm repeating, but the only brass I consider "once fired" is if I fired factory ammo and collected the brass.

I do have a big exception: A fellow range shooter I know well gave me a 5gal bucket full of his once-fired 38 Special brass. This was about 2 years ago (I posted about it; under "Bonanza!.") Anyway, I know for a fact that he buys all factory ammo, doesn't load, and collected his brass. I've known this guy from the range for years and have watched him shoot a good amount of this factory ammo. It was once-fired. I talked to him about loading his own and he said he doesn't mind just buying it (looking out in the parking lot, I see his new high-end Mercedes - I'm thinking he's done quite well in life.) About 80% of it was "GECO" stamped. So now I have thousands of these; so it follows that's all I use for my 38's now. It's good brass; so it seems anyway.

Everything else, is "range pick up." And yes, most would certainly appear to be once fired, but I do not consider it so - they go into the regular rotation of their mixed headstamp kind. Side note: I don't go out of my way to collect range pick up. Stuff just happens.

This is where revolvers have a distinct advantage IMO. For starters, these days, revolver brass is almost never available as range pick up (not that I would). Therefore, these days, my only source for revolver brass is from factory ammo or purchased new brass (usually Starline, but sometimes Winchester or R-P). I think this is a good thing. Because of this, my revolver brass is only a few different headstamps. So for 38, and often 357, I sort/load like headstamps.

 

[mikld]

At one time, the term "once fired" did mean fired just one time. I believe it originated from vendors that had access to military fired brass, indeed fired just one time. Now the term has morphed into a phrase meaning "used". I have stopped thinking of "once fired" brass being fired just one time and think "used" and take my chances. I have purchased a lot of used brass and rarely have any problems. BTW, I only buy one kind of ammo, that's factory ammo and from a store, never a gun show and I reload 99% of everything I shoot...'

 

[T. O'Heir]

"...a scientific study on "once fired brass"?..." To prove or disprove what?
The only way to be 100% sure of any case being fired only once is to fire the factory round yourself.
Factory ammo has different coloured primers than those a reloader can buy.
"..."range pick up."..." Is 100% unknown. You have no idea what has been done to it, how many times or with what load(s).
+P brass is stamped with that so the workies in the factory don't mix the loaded ammo with non +P ammo. There is no difference between standard brass and +P brass.

 

[thallub]

Most of my .223/5.56mm and .308/7.62mm brass is US military. The primer crimp is evidence the brass was fired once. Most comes from firing ranges. Sometimes make some nice once fired 5.56mm brass by shooting TW or LC that i have on hand.

 

[NWPilgrim]

There are definitely several reputable online sellers of .mil and LE brass that is still crimped so truly once-fired. I've bought a few batches of .556 LC brass that is excellent.

I have no problem picking up handgun caliber cases at the range. Just like my own store bought ammo cases I shoot them until the case shows signs of cracking or splitting. And they are free so if I get just one reload it is still a plus.

 

[hdwhit]

Grey_Lion asked:
Can anyone direct me to a scientific study on "once fired brass"?

What question would you be expecting such a study to answer?

 

[Grey_Lion]

What question would you be expecting such a study to answer?

What is the lifespan of brass - how many firings before there is a failure with powder loads within manufacturer spec.

I'd be looking for this data for 9mm luger, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP and then across different manufacturers for factory brass.

I'd like to see graphs giving average ranges of performance of brass under stock conditions from the firing of the factory round to it's eventual failure.

I'd want this to put some science to the "once fired brass" phrase as well as a safety guide in general for reloaders.

 

[Marco Califo]

Stay with moderate or light loads. Reuse until they crack at mouth. When 2%+ crack or split, toss that lot.
There are uncontrolled variables you cannot nail down. If you were able to calculate an exact value, it would not mean, prove or predict anything.
If you are losing sleep over this, then buy new Starline brass, and load it 6.47 times until you replace 33.33%, of it and light some incense, then consult a Oaiji board, and your magic 8 ball.

 

[FrankenMauser]

The problem with that brass is that while it is usually commercial ammo brass left by a non-reloader, I know of several shooters who are not clean-up conscious and who leave their brass at the range whenever they decide it's time to retire it. They are too lazy or too old to go to the effort to pick it up to take to the scrapyard. Or they will save up the brass that has just one more load cycle or two left to load it to shoot at an indoor range that doesn't allow brass policing. There, it becomes that guy's pickup brass to resell as "once-fired".

My family does this quite a bit.
It is often referred to as "walking brass" -- the term taken from the intent to leave it where it falls, while chasing rabbits through sagebrush, particularly if using a semi-auto. Alternatively, at least for semi-auto handguns, I also have "winter brass" -- heavily tarnished, dark brown brass that was perfectly suitable to reload and stands out better in the snow, but won't be missed if it cannot be recovered.

Though we intend to use it where it is unlikely to ever be seen again by a human, let alone recovered and reloaded, the loads do occasionally end up at ranges or more popular shooting locations (in the desert, mountains, etc.).


Comical anecdote:
Some time back, my uncle found a tarnished pile of CAVIM 7.62x51mm brass near one of our shooting locations in the Utah desert.
"Holy crap! It's the mother-load!"
He snatched it all up, policed up another 20-30 cases that were scattered, and took it home.

A few months later, he was out with his FAL and started testing some reloads in that brass. Nothing but problems. Big problems.

Then the light bulb came on:
"Son of a [bee]! This was that crap that I threw out three years ago, because the primers were blowing out and the cases were cracking! I picked up my own garbage!"

I've seen several posts by fellows who had evidence that blanks had been made with extra thin brass (during wartime) or a cheaper alloy that didn't hold up to normal peak pressures. What have you found in this regard? Do you weigh them after any necessary trimming to see if they have enough metal in them? I've never had occasion to section one.

I know the question wasn't directed at me and I haven't sectioned any, but...
I do have five different types of 5.56 blanks on hand. The cases all feel different, have different 'tones' if dropped/tapped/etc., and the fired cases that I've weighed were vastly different.
I didn't record anything, as it was just a quick look to see if they were worth saving for some reason. But the large split in case weight was enough for me to just sweep the idea, and cases, into the recycling bin.

Now that I do have a .300 Blk, I might convince myself to section a few cases to see if I can identify the reason for the huge weight difference. ...But probably not any time soon. 5.56 and .223 brass is so plentiful (and free to me) that the motivation level is exceptionally low.

 

[kmw1954]

If we were working together in the garage and you did something stupid and I stated "way to go genius" or just "what did you do, idiot" does it really make a difference? After all you are still who you are regardless of my comment.

Just like the brass it is still used and it would be hard to tell how many times it was fired unless you fired it yourself.

 

[P-990]

...
Factory ammo has different coloured primers than those a reloader can buy.
...

Why won't this go away? We most certainly can reload with primers with the same nickel or brass cup as whatever was in the factory original load.

I watched a fellow walk onto a pistol range one day, pick up some empty brass and very confidently declare "reloads" due to the primer colors. He was so convinced sounding I didn't bother mention I had just watched the shooter break the seal on a box of factory ammo and leave the empties on the ground.

As for "once fired" versus "previously fired" pistol brass: I figure semi-auto pistol brass is generally going to get lost well before it starts to crack and split. So I don't let us cause me heartburn lose sleep over it. For rifle brass, either start with crimped primer brass or buy some new, virgin cases for your rifle and you'll know its history.

(Also, 4-5 loadings isn't very many cycles on 9mm, 45 ACP or .38 Special brass. And if you want to see some impressive brass life, load .44 Magnum brass with mid-range loads driving 240gr bullets at 1000 fps from a 6" gun. I used the same 800 cases for YEARS without losing any to cracks.)

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[briandg]

may I suggest that any range pickup revolver brass is going to be once fired? Reloaders are going to just dump them into a carry sack and take them home, why in the world would they eject them onto the ground and leave them?

Revolver cases are fully supported during firing. The only place that anything can fail on a revolver are at the pocket and at the crimp, so far as I know. The brass can split, the pocket may get loose.

Since the 38 and .357 revolvers have become more popular as carry pieces, I suspect that an increasing number of people are walking away leaving a box or two of brass that is almost certainly once fired. If it's factory reloaded, like 3d, it's going to be quite obvious.

 

[kmw1954]

Some people have weird concepts. Like putting this much thought into used brass. If I'm scooping up used range brass who the HELP really cares or thinks about it? It's used! It's Free!

If I am buying used brass I already believe that it is used and that some may have been reloaded before. I have established contacts with sellers that I trust and they tell me all their brass is from indoor ranges so in my mind that is going to put at least 80% as once fired. Also the fact that I pay between 2 cents to 5 cents a pcs means I'm not going to sweat it. I have much more pressing problems to worry about.

 

[LineStretcher]

I pickup used brass at the range but I don't re-use it anymore because I do not know the history of the brass. I didn't stop because of a failure but rather mistrust. I now throw it in a 5 gal bucket and when I get a few buckets, I take it to the recycler. The problem that got into my head is that I don't know why the person left it. Was it because they don't reload? Did they leave it because they didn't read the range rules? Did they leave it because it's on it's last legs?

I buy new brass and after the first firing it is now sized to my chamber. I de-prime it, clean it, put it in a baggie and mark it 1F. When it comes time to reload I resize the neck only. This is repeated for the second firing. After the third firing I do a full resize and discard any brass that shows any signs of fatigue. I can then start the process over but I call it 21F. I usually discard all my brass after 6 firings even though it's probably still usable.

 

[Gary Wells]

I shoot indoors with a buddy and we watch where the cases fall for one another. I do not and will not pick up anybody else's brass. For reloading purposes I shoot nickel plated R- P .45 auto only, non +P, & started with 600 cases from a case of 1000 rounds which I purchased & shot up about 15 years ago. My buddy re-loads on my press with 500 R-P nickel plated +P cases and are not co-mingled with my non +P cases. I would never buy reloads, especially at a gun show. Determining whether non military (commercial) cases are actually once fired should not be that difficult if they are de-capped / de-primed. If once fired unless wet cleaned with SS pins the bottom surface of the primer pocket hole should have 3 equally spaced soot marks and 3 equally spaced non sooted areas from the primer anvil.

 

[mikld]

What is the lifespan of brass - how many firings before there is a failure with powder loads within manufacturer spec.

I'd be looking for this data for 9mm luger, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP and then across different manufacturers for factory brass.

I'd like to see graphs giving average ranges of performance of brass under stock conditions from the firing of the factory round to it's eventual failure.

I'd want this to put some science to the "once fired brass" phrase as well as a safety guide in general for reloaders.

I don't think there is data for your questions even for newly manufactured brass. Number of firings? Way too many variables to give a definitive answer. I have some 38 Special cases from the early '80s that I am sure I have reloaded 25+ times, but I also have some 357 Magnum brass that only goes 8-10 times before splits start happening. My 9mm brass lasts from 10 to mebbe 20 reloadings depending on the load and the gun. I've got some 45 ACP brass that is of unknown age and since in my possession they have been fired at least 10 times, but I have some other 45 brass, factory new to me, that only go 10 reloadings due to hot load with light bullets fired in a 1911 with a "generous" chamber.

Performance data between manufacturers? Personally, I don't think there is measurable difference, and I've not noticed any, especially with the cartridges you mention (many of my 9mm and 45 ACP loads are with "mixed" brass and being an "amateur test tech" I found no measurable difference, over my chrony or on target).

The graphs, while interesting, would only be of use to the very curious (OCD) reloader and a case manufacturer. I would probably read, look over such graphs and put them in my "Misc. Gun Stuff" file, as the information would have little to do with my choice of brass, new or used...

I wouldn't mind having the info your talking about as it would be interesting but the time and cost of testing would be too high for publication for the general reloading public...

Hey, jes an old guy's logic...

 

[Marco Califo]

Revolver popularity is not increasing

I am not trying to high-jack this thread or twist off the topic. However, I do feel obligated to dispute false or fake info and/or opinions stated as if they were facts, when they are not, and I can reference information to prove it.

Since the 38 and .357 revolvers have become more popular as carry pieces, I suspect that an increasing number of people are walking away leaving a box or two of brass that is almost certainly once fired. If it's factory reloaded, like 3d, it's going to be quite obvious.

What??? The hey-day of revolvers was long past in the previous century. At my range it is impossible to not step on 223 and 9mm, while 38/357 are almost non-existent.

I also hotly dispute this assertion, as I believe the opposite to be true. The article linked below is based on BATF data. Semi-auto's have ruled for the last 25 years: much higher round capacity; performance of the 40 SW; and modern 9mm bullets. Further, many service revolvers like the SW model 10 were legally retired, banned from import in California, as they cannot pass modern gun safety laws, like discharging during the DOJ drop test. And that long, stiff, creepy double action trigger pull!

Pistols -- semi-automatic handguns with magazines that slide into their grips -- are the most manufactured category of American firearm. According to the ATF, more than 3.6 million were produced in 2014.

According to the ATF, 744,047 revolvers were manufactured in 2014, making it the fourth most popular category of guns in America that year.
A revolver is a pistol with revolving chambers that allow multiple shots to be fired without reloading.

Fourth, out of five, after semi-auto handguns, semi-auto rifles and shotguns. They beat out the " miscellaneous group includes pistol-grip firearms, starter guns, and firearm frames and receivers" woo-woo!
https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/most-popular-guns-in-america/7/

 

[Don Fischer]

What is the lifespan of brass - how many firings before there is a failure with powder loads within manufacturer spec.

I'd be looking for this data for 9mm luger, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP and then across different manufacturers for factory brass.

I'd like to see graphs giving average ranges of performance of brass under stock conditions from the firing of the factory round to it's eventual failure.

I'd want this to put some science to the "once fired brass" phrase as well as a safety guide in general for reloaders.

What I have determined with pistol brass is there is unlimited life span. Of course you might be able to shoot a primer pocket but I worry about getting pressure up that high in a handgun. I'm still using some 38 spec brass I brought here with me 30 yrs ago. As for once fired rifle brass, I only use military brass. And I don't care if it's deprimed but the crimp better still be in there. If the crimp is still there, it's pretty reasonable to assume it's once fired.

 

[FrankenMauser]

I pickup used brass at the range but I don't re-use it anymore because I do not know the history of the brass. I didn't stop because of a failure but rather mistrust. I now throw it in a 5 gal bucket and when I get a few buckets, I take it to the recycler. The problem that got into my head is that I don't know why the person left it. Was it because they don't reload? Did they leave it because they didn't read the range rules? Did they leave it because it's on it's last legs?

It's generally pretty easy to judge a case's history with a quick inspection.
If I'm confident that it's once-fired, I don't have a problem using it. And it's not like that's the last call on the matter, either. The cases will be inspected at least another 4-5 times during the cleaning and reloading processes.
If it appears to have been reloaded multiple times, I'll leave it or throw it in the scrap bucket.

Often, there's additional evidence of the case's history, as well. If the range has clean, new-looking R-P and Win 9mm brass scattered all over the pad and corresponding empty factory boxes in the trash can, it's probably once-fired. If there's a pile of .30-30 that looks once-fired, sitting on top of a bench with an empty factory ammo box, it's very likely once-fired.
If there's a crap-ton of Winchester .380 scattered around, the paperwork from inside a Ruger LCP factory box, and the packaging for two extra LCP magazines ... it's probably truly once-fired.

On the other hand: If there's bullet lube residue on nickel-plated Speer brass, it's probably anything but once-fired. If the case mouths have been chamfered and deburred, it probably ain't once-fired. If you're looking at Federal .22-250 cases that don't look quite right and the primers aren't sealed, it probably isn't once-fired.

But, of course, the quick inspection and additional evidence aren't always perfect indicators. For example: I once found about five factory-looking .375 RUM cartridges sitting on a bench, right next to a new-looking and matching Nosler ammo box. More ("once"-) fired cases were sitting in the target (recycling) bin about six feet away. Long story short, they were far from once-fired and had been left behind because the rest of the box suffered total case head separation. I did, however, catch the issue once past the 'quick' inspection.


(Though I do generally avoid using 'range found' bottleneck rifle brass, I use plenty of found brass for handgun cartridges, .30-30, and .223/5.56.)

Why won't this go away? We most certainly can reload with primers with the same nickel or brass cup as whatever was in the factory original load.

I watched a fellow walk onto a pistol range one day, pick up some empty brass and very confidently declare "reloads" due to the primer colors. He was so convinced sounding I didn't bother mention I had just watched the shooter break the seal on a box of factory ammo and leave the empties on the ground.

I always chuckle when this subject comes up...

And here's a great, recent example of Remington mixing-and-matching in the same box of ammo:
Some are plain brass. Some are plated. And, though it doesn't show in the photo, some of the plain primers are a deep blue color in natural light (3rd and 5th from left in top row, and 4th from left in bottom row, for example).
I broke the seal [glued flap] on this box two weeks ago.

Definitely reloads!

 

[JeepHammer]

Well, after all the personal stuff there are about three or four posts actually on topic.

I have to point out, if someone leaves brass on the range, 99% of the time it's 'Once Fired'.
Reloaders never leave brass, theirs or anyone elses...

Second, generic 'Gunshow' reloads can't be trusted.
Neither can 99% of 'Reloded' or 'Recycled' ammo even if it's not in a plain box, printing or labels doesn't guarantee quality, or even safe.

If processed correctly (SAAMI base sizing, neck annealing, primer pocket gauged) the rest of the case is probably going to survive for several reloads since the clock was basically reset.

Since all mine come with primer crimp, I'm 100% sure they are once fired.
It doesn't matter after processing, I can't tell the difference between properly processed/annealed and new unfired other than an occasional light scratch.

But then again, the rounds were reasonable pressure fired through reasonable, if not slightly oversized chambers, and not some idiot that bought new brass and overloads blowing out primer pockets opon first firing...