Muzzleloading question?

Sorry folks, no offense intended:

I guess I see your position Mr. Quantrill and did not mean to offend any of the real muzzleloaders out there. Just asking questions on equip I would need to begin hunting with my new T/C Encore. To me it was considered a muzzleloader and that is why I bought it. Guess I have some learning to do.
 
WC's post is perhaps the best written dialog for his point of view that I've seen. It should be posted in it's own thread instead of hiding away in this one - please give some thought to doing that.

That said, I'm afraid I must, in the end, come down on the other side of the issue. I no longer hunt due to physical disabilities, but I do own one inline rifle, in which I exclusively shoot 777 and sabot rounds. I also own seven sidelock percussion rifles and one flintlock rifle, in which I exclusively shoot real black powder and either patched round balls or mini balls.

I appreciate and fully support the traditional shooting sports in every way, but I cannot expand my love of the traditional to include a dislike of the inline disciplines. The primary, and perhaps only real reason is that we need all the help we can get in providing real, effective wild game management. That may seem like a big leap, so let me outline my thoughts.

We the human race have necessarily expanded our presence on the planet to the detriment of the wild animal population - notice I said necessarily. It's necessary for our own survival. We've virtually eliminated the natural predation of large game animals near the top of the food chain.

One of our traits is the innate intelligence to be able to mitigate the impact of that expansion (game management), and we therefore, in my opinion have an obligation to do so. The most effective tool that we have in managing our wildlife resources is the hunter. I think we are therefore required by our humanity to educate and preserve, in fact expand, the number of hunters in this country.

WC's argument that the implementation of the muzzleloding season as an exclusive privilege for the users of traditional weapons has been diminished by the proliferation of modern design inline guns is accurate and compelling. However, we don't have the luxury of limiting the hunting population for aesthetic reasons. Unfortunately, we need them. It's a sad fact that the hunting population is decreasing, and I'm afraid that someday we're going to lament policies that limit the use of some weapons for reasons other than humane game management.

Sir, your argument is well written. I wish I could be on your side; I'd be much happier about it. But at this point in time, I'm afraid my concern for the future of the hunting sports overrides my desire to be more traditional.
 
1st week - Slingshots, spears & knives, rocks

2nd week - Long bows

3rd week- Cross Bows

4th week- Compound bows

5th week- Traditional muzzleloader ( Flintlock & Black Powder only)

6th week- Traditional muzzleloader ( percussion cap & Black Powder only)

7th week- Traditional muzzleloader ( open primer & Any Powder)

8th week- Inline muzzleloader ( percussion cap & Black Powder only)

9th week- Inline muzzleloader ( 209 primers & Pellet Powder only)

10th week-Inline muzzleloader ( any primer& any Powder)

11th week-Inline muzzleloader ( Smokeless Powder & any Primer)

12th week- Single Shot Hi- Powered rifles (Breakdown or Bolt Action)

13th week- Semi-Automatic Hi-Powered Rifles

14th week- Fully automatic weapons

Scopes are only allowed with special permit from Optometrist.


If this would solve the problems we seem to have with our different individual hunting problems, then I might run for president next time around. Can I count on you guys vote?:D

Any of you have a better Idea?
 
By extension, why not just eliminate special seasons altogether and allow all weapons through the whole season?


Any of you have a better Idea?
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Yep, even simpler. Modern guns for the modern gun season. That includes "modern" inlines.
 
Only problem I see Bill is with week 14 ..would it be limited to under 50 cal ?
If you can work through this ...You have my Vote .:D
 
Blackpowder/muzzleloading questions

Was just thinking after watching some anti's on TV tonight.
Maybe we just ought to support each one of us in whatever type of weapon he or she wants to use for hunting, shooting, etc. That way the bad guys out there who are fighting us tooth and nail (they are well financed too) will have a harder time getting rid of any of our hunting guns...................
 
Maybe we just ought to support each one of us in whatever type of weapon he or she wants to use for hunting, shooting, etc
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It's not that simple for us traditionalists. I've gotta go with W.C. Inlines. (we call'em cheatlines) belong in modern season. There's nothing primitive about them.
 
The State of Michigan has just announced another an extended whitetail season: Sept 18-22. It's the earliest that's ever been done; the season now extends from September through early January with occasional days off. The sole reason is overpopulation, leading to starvation and disease. This at a time when the number of hunters continues to decrease. It's simply disgraceful that we would put our esthetic sensibilities ahead of proven effective game management techniques.
 
This at a time when the number of hunters continues to decrease. It's simply disgraceful that we would put our esthetic sensibilities ahead of proven effective game management techniques.
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Well, this ain't Michigan. We have no shortage of hunters and I see no reason to have modern guns in the muzzleloader season that is only two weeks long. It's even a split season with a week of archery in the middle. Archery gets at least six weeks. General gun is five weeks.

It's disgraceful when a whole cottage industry revolves around creating modern guns that are still technically muzzleloaders just so people can take advantage of what was intended to be a primitive weapons season. The whole reason for a special season is to allow hunters who use primitive weapons a chance to hunt without the woods being filled with modern boltguns. If the weapons aren't primitive, as inlines are certainly not, they don't belong in the special season. Thing is, if those hunters were given a choice, they'd rather be using their trusty old .30/06. Not so for the hunter using a traditional blackpowder rifle.
 
IN-LINES

A plethora of designs for use with the new percussion principle appeared in the early 1800's. The

Swiss genius Pauley invented the paper cap, then invented a percussion muzzleloader in 1808 and

breech-loader in 1812. His 1808 patent was the first to design and patent a muzzleloading in-line action

in which the cock of the sidelock was replaced by a cylindrical hammer driven by a coil spring.

His in-line invention was capitalized on by Dreyse, who worked for Pauly between 1808-14 and

who used it as the basis for his 1838 turnbolt design which became the Prussian Needlegun of 1848.

Paul Mauser later used the Dreyse needlegun design as a basis for his tumbolt cartridge rifle of 1868,

first patented in the U.S., but adopted by the German military in 1871.



The Dreyse needle gun of 1848. It was so advanced that

any soldier who lost one paid with his life for his carelessness



White later used the Mauser inspired Springfield ‘03 as a basis for the White Super 91 of 1991,

once again a muzzlelader, making the cycle one grand round.

[Pauley]...was the first to design and patent an...inline action in which the cock of the sidelock

was replaced by a cylindrical hammer driven by a coil spring... (1808)
 
That argument comes up every time but the "in-line" ignition is not really the damning characteristic. It's the modern propellants, sometimes even smokeless powders, the pelletized propellants, the shotgun primers, the saboted jacketed bullets, the scopes, stainless steel and synthetic stocks. All designed to afford the hunter every luxury of a modern weapon with as few of the inconveniences as possible while still technically remaining a "muzzleloader".

The special season was created for the traditional guns. The modern guns came later and were created not on their own merit but strictly for hunters to take advantage of the early season without the necessary commitment the traditional guns require. Bowhunting requires a substantially higher level of commitment in comparison to modern guns, blackpowder should too.

If it's stainless steel, wears a scope and shoots jacketed bullets flat to 200yds, it's a modern gun. No matter how it's loaded.
 
The whole reason for a special season is to allow hunters who use primitive weapons a chance to hunt without the woods being filled with modern boltguns.
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Gee, that's kind of interesting. I must be spatially challenged here. Tell me again how "the woods being filled with boltguns" means I can't hunt with a flintlock (btw, you really don't mean 'primitive' weapons - I don't know of any state that restricts hunters to stone axes!).

I really don't believe that the muzzleloading (not 'primitive') seasons were established because the flintlock/side percussion lock shooters couldn't find any room to hunt. Of course, you are talking about Tennessee, which "has no shortage of hunters', so you may be right in your neck of the woods.
 
I do remember a time when it took a true hunter to hunt durning the primitive hunting season ...I wish my state would do like PA. does and have a Flintlock only hunting season . That must work well to thin out the number of hunters in the woods . I`ve never seen a scope on a Flinter ..or someone stuffing a Sabot down one .
I hear there are states out west that require side locks only durning primitive seasons .
Here where I live they now allow any configuration of a 45/70 smokeless cartridge rifle as long as it`s a single shot durning primitive deer season....H&R is makeing a killing selling those 45/70 Handy rifles around here ..kinda funny though ..first ya sell them inlines then ya sell them a 45/70 elephant gun to hunt the dangerous white tailed deer ....... scares me I`m glad I`m too old to hunt anymore ...back when I was a hunter ..deer were much easyer to kill .
 
I really don't believe that the muzzleloading (not 'primitive') seasons were established because the flintlock/side percussion lock shooters couldn't find any room to hunt.
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Then why don't you tell us, oh learn-ed one, why the special seasons were created? Tell us why we gun hunters are relegated to the sidelines until the bowhunters have had their fun.


...you really don't mean 'primitive' weapons
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I see you now want to reduce this discussion to semantics. Didn't pull that word out of my posterior orifice. Once upon a time, in Florida (where I was born and lived until two years ago) it was referred to as a primitive weapons season. Do a search if you want to argue about using the term "primitive". Check the DNR sites for Ohio, Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, Hawaii, and Georgia. Those came up on the first couple pages when Googled. Besides, "primitive" is rather subjective. There are dummies who consider my leverguns as "primitive".
 
Inlines are most likely suffering their death throes in MS. now. They've been allowing the Handi Rifles in .38 and above. Now(so I hear) they're going to allow them in .35 and above. This will legalize the 35 Whelen. Scopes and smokeless powder are already legal. They still call it primitive weapons season. WTFH is primitive about any of that? The cheatlines were bad enough.:mad::mad::mad: I hunt my own place so it really doesn't affect me but I know it does affect a lot of people. One thing is for sure there won't be anybody using ANY of the above on my place. Not and me know about it and if they do they better hope I don't find out about it.
 
I guess with all things technology improves over time but the fact is inlines are still loaded from the muzzle which by definition classifies it as a muzzle loader and besides caliber limitations is all that most states require for there hunting seasons even cap and ball revolvers are allowed in some states.
while im sure that in some areas muzzleloading may be popular but every time ive been out during muzzleloading season with my primitive 209 fired inline,ha ha, I didnt even see another hunter this is in the same area that was loaded with hunters just 1 week before during firearm season.
 
Primitive weapon or not?

Forgive me for being a little long winded here. Well, I certainly never said my Encore was a "primitive weapon", surely it is not. Not as compared to a real blackpowder muzzloader (without a scope, modern propellants, 209 primers inline, etc).
I wasn't trying to compare the two, just get some advice on a modern muzzleloading rifle (which happens to be a T/C Encore .50 cal).

But if you think about it, a real primitive weapon would be something like a spear, recurve or long bow, and the like. Those are true primitive weapons. As we all know, many years ago, along comes the blackpowder rifle (with rifling and iron sights, round lead balls, etc). Awesome invention. That changed the way everyone hunted and defended themselves. It wasn't a primitve weapon to them back then. It was a modern and productive weapon. Thats why everyone got one that could afford it. Why? Because it was so much more accurate, more effective at longer range and had more knock down power than a spear or arrow. It was a better weapon and everyone wanted one. I guess to each his own when you get right down to it. Times change and now we have modern weapons that are more reliable, more accurate, etc. Some may say, even a better weapon than the old smoke poles? That is not for me to say. But it is the same as back then, when the blackpowder rifle replaced the bow and arrow.....
I do respect the real blackpowder muzzeloaders and might just get one myself one of these days. But after shooting my T/C Encore at the range, I was amazed at the group and its accuracy. It is nice to be able to hit what I am aiming at (especially at a long range). By the way, I did use real blackpowder (Goex, 130 grains). I also feel it is more fair to the game I am hunting to make a quick, clean kill (using a scope for precise aiming point). Guess it really gets down to what we feel is important to each one of us. For me, hunting whitetails is my passion, period. Bow, muzzleloader (of any kind), centerfire rifle. Hell, I would chuck a rock at 'em if they had a rock season. I just want to be in the woods each fall and hunting deer, whatever season it is they offer.
Now that is just my humble opinion. Thanks for everyone's advice and opinion and good luck to all who go hunting this fall.
 
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