I prefere pointed down. One main reason for this would be that if I was ever in a bad situation I could fire while raising my gun and kinda work from the knees up. So I would be able to take the bad guy out before he takes me out. Just quicker that way. Also down keeps my field of vision clear and the gun away from my head.
Muzzle up? Or down?
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rem870hunter
New member
i carry muzzle down. pointing at a slight angle to my left. just clear of my foot. with the safety on. granted its my shotgun not a pistol. unless i am waterfowl or bird hunting. then maybe muzzle up when moving through a field . i don't rely on the safety so i make sure i don't have the muzzle pointing at something i don't intend on shooting. i usually hunted with my father so typically one of us would be leading and the other following. so i couldn't just have it up to my shoulder at the ready with the safety on or off. were hunting animals not enemy soldiers.
Low and ready is the term. Holding the muzzle to the sky is good for Hollywood movies but has no tactical advantages unless you are clearing a second level while going up a flight of stairs. "Grazing" fire which means firing two to four feet from ground level is easier to accomplish even though it will be at an angle if standing versus prone the muzzle down aimed in the direction of your threat still exist when in the low ready versus the hollywood to the sky method.
Sigma 40 Blaster
New member
My input, having no training at all, is muzzle down. My line of reasoning is that the act of aligning sights and shooting will be similar/the same as drawing and firing.
I can see pointing up maybe if you have a group of people around you clearing/entering a building or room but for solo "bump in the night" investigations I'm at low ready.
I can see pointing up maybe if you have a group of people around you clearing/entering a building or room but for solo "bump in the night" investigations I'm at low ready.
JollyRoger
New member
+1 on that. IIRC the whole "muzzle to the sky" concept was a Hollywood deal, so they could get a shot of the actor's face and the gun in a close-up. I think that was the origin of the sideways pistol grip as well, as that allowed a straight-on, unobstructed shot of the actor's face with the sideways pistol underneath. Life imitates art. Unbelievable.
Rifleman 173
New member
Muzzle down. If you have the muzzle up and by chance you stumble, if the gun goes off it might hit the guy in front of you in the back or in the skull. If you have it pointed down then if it goes off, more than likely the guy will only get a leg wound and develop a limp. With either scenario, you probably will NOT be getting any Christmas cards from the guy you wounded.
Colt Delta Elite
New member
Down
Muzzle down. Much, much better idea of where a fired round will end up.
Muzzle down. Much, much better idea of where a fired round will end up.
MLeake ~
At the top of a three-story house, having just retired for the night, I heard the beeeeep of the alarm system indicating that someone had just opened a door downstairs. Maybe. (We'd had some glitches in it the day before.)
Family was gone, just me in the house.
I'd retired for the night and had no belt on, hence no holster.
After listening at the door for 15 full minutes by the clock, I'd heard no movement downstairs during that time. I was reasonably certain that it was just one more glitch in the system, not an intruder. So no point calling the cops.
Equally no sense going back to bed. I was WIDE AWAKE and destined to stay that way until I knew for sure that I was alone in the house. It could have been an intruder. No way to know without checking.
Now...
Do I leave my gun on the nightstand while I run downstairs to check? (Bad plan...)
Do I make a bunch of noise rummaging through the closet, finding what I need in order to holster the gun, and then move through the house with the gun NOT in hand? (This seemed awkward to me, and a bit unwise - what if the intruder burst into the room while I had one leg in & one leg out of my jeans?)
Or do I move "tactically" through the house, carrying my gun with me in case I need to use it? (I chose this option. Took over an hour to make my way carefully downstairs.)
Having decided to move through the house with gun in hand, how should I carry it?
pax
At the top of a three-story house, having just retired for the night, I heard the beeeeep of the alarm system indicating that someone had just opened a door downstairs. Maybe. (We'd had some glitches in it the day before.)
Family was gone, just me in the house.
I'd retired for the night and had no belt on, hence no holster.
After listening at the door for 15 full minutes by the clock, I'd heard no movement downstairs during that time. I was reasonably certain that it was just one more glitch in the system, not an intruder. So no point calling the cops.
Equally no sense going back to bed. I was WIDE AWAKE and destined to stay that way until I knew for sure that I was alone in the house. It could have been an intruder. No way to know without checking.
Now...
Do I leave my gun on the nightstand while I run downstairs to check? (Bad plan...)
Do I make a bunch of noise rummaging through the closet, finding what I need in order to holster the gun, and then move through the house with the gun NOT in hand? (This seemed awkward to me, and a bit unwise - what if the intruder burst into the room while I had one leg in & one leg out of my jeans?)
Or do I move "tactically" through the house, carrying my gun with me in case I need to use it? (I chose this option. Took over an hour to make my way carefully downstairs.)
Having decided to move through the house with gun in hand, how should I carry it?
pax
Pax,
In the scenario you describe, the possible threat area is downstairs, so I suppose I'd opt for muzzle down for clearing purposes.
If the situation dictates extended movement with the pistol drawn, I guess my answer would be that it could be up or down, dependent on the environment. Factors would include presence and locations of friendly or non-threat personnel, types of surfaces involved, and potential obstructions.
Concrete floor, and nobody upstairs, I might opt for muzzle up.
The argument another poster had about potential trip hazards when muzzle up behind a teammate was valid, too, so that might call for muzzle down.
For most of us, though, a SD scenario shouldn't involve a lot of movement toward the threat. Getting the family (if present) to a defensible position while calling 911 and ensuring appropriate family members are armed would make more sense for most of us, who aren't trained in clearing houses.
I think the only blanket statement I'd make for muzzle up, down, or wherever is that if the weapon needs to be in hand, maintain muzzle awareness, and use your best judgement. Otherwise, keep it holstered, where possible, when a lot of movement is involved.
In the scenario you describe, the possible threat area is downstairs, so I suppose I'd opt for muzzle down for clearing purposes.
If the situation dictates extended movement with the pistol drawn, I guess my answer would be that it could be up or down, dependent on the environment. Factors would include presence and locations of friendly or non-threat personnel, types of surfaces involved, and potential obstructions.
Concrete floor, and nobody upstairs, I might opt for muzzle up.
The argument another poster had about potential trip hazards when muzzle up behind a teammate was valid, too, so that might call for muzzle down.
For most of us, though, a SD scenario shouldn't involve a lot of movement toward the threat. Getting the family (if present) to a defensible position while calling 911 and ensuring appropriate family members are armed would make more sense for most of us, who aren't trained in clearing houses.
I think the only blanket statement I'd make for muzzle up, down, or wherever is that if the weapon needs to be in hand, maintain muzzle awareness, and use your best judgement. Otherwise, keep it holstered, where possible, when a lot of movement is involved.
Pax's scenario, one more thing
Pax,
I feel weird offering you advice, since you are an acknowledged expert... but I'm a big fan of big dogs.
If I were in your scenario, I'd have a much better idea whether it was a system glitch or an intruder, because a decent sized Catahoula would provide his opinion pretty much instantly.
The other advantage to dogs is that they make a great deterrent, ahead of the break-in. According to published studies I've read, most burglars don't want anything to do with a canine-protected house.
Aside from that, I just like dogs.
Cheers,
M
Pax,
I feel weird offering you advice, since you are an acknowledged expert... but I'm a big fan of big dogs.
If I were in your scenario, I'd have a much better idea whether it was a system glitch or an intruder, because a decent sized Catahoula would provide his opinion pretty much instantly.
The other advantage to dogs is that they make a great deterrent, ahead of the break-in. According to published studies I've read, most burglars don't want anything to do with a canine-protected house.
Aside from that, I just like dogs.
Cheers,
M
MLeake ~
Dogs are great for those who can have them, and you're right. Can't beat a canine early warning system! (Allergies suck, that's all I'm gonna say about that.)
Mostly I posted that story to point out that the previous post of yours was maybe a bit too absolutist:
In my situation, there was no identified threat to point at, nor was there likely to be. I wasn't on the range. And I didn't have a holster. Yet I still needed to move with the gun.
After 15 by-the-clock minutes of not hearing even the faintest ghost of a sound from downstairs, no out of place smells, no wayward drafts or shadows moving around, and given my knowledge that the alarm system had been being a bit wonky, it seemed to me that the situation didn't merit calling the cops, nor was hunkering down the thing to do either, at least not after that initial long wait timed by the clock (not by the heartbeat...).
Just wanted to illustrate a situation where moving with the gun in hand was a prudent and necessary thing to do, even without a known threat or a holster.
(And, I should add -- THAT kind of situation is the most likely one most of us ordinary citizens are going to face.)
pax
Dogs are great for those who can have them, and you're right. Can't beat a canine early warning system! (Allergies suck, that's all I'm gonna say about that.)
Mostly I posted that story to point out that the previous post of yours was maybe a bit too absolutist:
In my situation, there was no identified threat to point at, nor was there likely to be. I wasn't on the range. And I didn't have a holster. Yet I still needed to move with the gun.
After 15 by-the-clock minutes of not hearing even the faintest ghost of a sound from downstairs, no out of place smells, no wayward drafts or shadows moving around, and given my knowledge that the alarm system had been being a bit wonky, it seemed to me that the situation didn't merit calling the cops, nor was hunkering down the thing to do either, at least not after that initial long wait timed by the clock (not by the heartbeat...).
Just wanted to illustrate a situation where moving with the gun in hand was a prudent and necessary thing to do, even without a known threat or a holster.
(And, I should add -- THAT kind of situation is the most likely one most of us ordinary citizens are going to face.)
pax
Believe it or not...
... but my nightstand gun and my truck gun both have holsters with them, so if needed I'm just a clip away from having a holster available (Odds are I'm not going to investigate in the buff... can't have intruders laugh themselves to death... so I'll probably put on some pants).
I guess I did sound too absolute in the earlier post that you are quoting, but I thought the original question was asking for a rule of thumb rather than specific scenario advice. My rule of thumb is "holstered".
Rules of thumb go out the window when events overcome them.
Sorry about the allergies. Half my family are allergic to dogs. The other half all own dogs. Reunions can be tricky, logistically.
Cheers,
M
... but my nightstand gun and my truck gun both have holsters with them, so if needed I'm just a clip away from having a holster available (Odds are I'm not going to investigate in the buff... can't have intruders laugh themselves to death... so I'll probably put on some pants).
I guess I did sound too absolute in the earlier post that you are quoting, but I thought the original question was asking for a rule of thumb rather than specific scenario advice. My rule of thumb is "holstered".
Rules of thumb go out the window when events overcome them.
Sorry about the allergies. Half my family are allergic to dogs. The other half all own dogs. Reunions can be tricky, logistically.
Cheers,
M
Question for Pax
Out of curiousity, in your house clearing scenario, it seems like you opted for a handgun.
Did you choose that option because you didn't have a shotgun or rifle handy, or had you previously determined that, given the layout of your home, neighborhood, etc, the handgun would be more advantageous?
I ask because not too far from my nightstand pistol, there's an 870 which would be my in-house primary. However, if I wanted to explore the house, the long gun could pose some challenges (easier to grab from around a corner, hard to manipulate while opening or closing doors, etc).
I also ask because I remember reading an article, years ago, about a practical self defense course where students were placed in a scenario in a simulated home, where a shotgun and a carbine were readily available, yet chose to deal with the scenario with their handguns. (I think only one student reached for a carbine, and that was a former infantryman)
Cheers,
M
Out of curiousity, in your house clearing scenario, it seems like you opted for a handgun.
Did you choose that option because you didn't have a shotgun or rifle handy, or had you previously determined that, given the layout of your home, neighborhood, etc, the handgun would be more advantageous?
I ask because not too far from my nightstand pistol, there's an 870 which would be my in-house primary. However, if I wanted to explore the house, the long gun could pose some challenges (easier to grab from around a corner, hard to manipulate while opening or closing doors, etc).
I also ask because I remember reading an article, years ago, about a practical self defense course where students were placed in a scenario in a simulated home, where a shotgun and a carbine were readily available, yet chose to deal with the scenario with their handguns. (I think only one student reached for a carbine, and that was a former infantryman)
Cheers,
M
No shotgun available that night (lots of backstory irrelevant to thread), but even if there had been, I'm more confident & comfortable moving around corners and through close quarters with handgun than I am with a long gun, and I am similarly more confident in my handgun retention skills in close quarters, if I goofed and it had turned into an ambushed rasslin' match.
pax
pax
There have been a coupla times I've played Curious George and cleared the interior and/or grounds of my property. Sometimes (as pax indicated), you just need to.
Once with a PPK/S in hand, face covered in shaving cream, and nothing else but a towel. No reload, no cell phone, no shoes. Maintenance man had "let himself in". He never did it again. I determined never to be caught so unready again.
I took a hint from an article by Mas Ayoob many years ago. I keep a duty sidearm holstered on a duty belt. Wakeup, standup, snap fastex belt around waist...ready.
Pistol, retention holster, re-loads, flashlight, spare cell phone, spare house/auto keys (in a key silencer), spare ID, field dressing x 2 plus tournequet (in small first aid pouch), and an ASP baton.
Extra keys are for: 1) re-entering your own locked residence through a door you didn't exit out of or 2) to drive to safety / evacuate others (without having to re-enter your place and locate primary keys).
It takes only seconds to put on gun belt, I have no need to look or fumble for separate items, I am ready for whatever...
It may sound overly "cop" but is actually pretty low profile, especially with a light windbreaker thrown over (if I go outside). Add some slip on all-terrain walkers or low hiking shoes.
Little use for civilian High Sabrina (muzzle up) unless clearing up staircase or elevated landings, decking, trees, fire escapes, ceiling hatches, ledges, roofs, or windows. At that point, I'm not so much securing my muzzle in a high position as covering high threats my eyes are looking at.
There are times when a high carry of pistol is applicable during tactical team entry and I will not elaborate.
When working with a buddy or team, high carry is also (unfortunately) a good way to shoot a friend in the back of the head or upper torso.
From a combatives point of view, there is a lot more physiology working against you if your pistol muzzle is high and you have to break a gun grab, grapple, or protect your weapon.
YMMV.
P.S. - "High Sabrina" is a tongue-in-cheek derogatory term for what Jolly Roger explained earlier concerning tight screen shots of actors' faces. Older members will remember promo shots and opening scenes from the original Charlie's Angels TV show circa 1970s....
Once with a PPK/S in hand, face covered in shaving cream, and nothing else but a towel. No reload, no cell phone, no shoes. Maintenance man had "let himself in". He never did it again. I determined never to be caught so unready again.
I took a hint from an article by Mas Ayoob many years ago. I keep a duty sidearm holstered on a duty belt. Wakeup, standup, snap fastex belt around waist...ready.
Pistol, retention holster, re-loads, flashlight, spare cell phone, spare house/auto keys (in a key silencer), spare ID, field dressing x 2 plus tournequet (in small first aid pouch), and an ASP baton.
Extra keys are for: 1) re-entering your own locked residence through a door you didn't exit out of or 2) to drive to safety / evacuate others (without having to re-enter your place and locate primary keys).
It takes only seconds to put on gun belt, I have no need to look or fumble for separate items, I am ready for whatever...
It may sound overly "cop" but is actually pretty low profile, especially with a light windbreaker thrown over (if I go outside). Add some slip on all-terrain walkers or low hiking shoes.
Little use for civilian High Sabrina (muzzle up) unless clearing up staircase or elevated landings, decking, trees, fire escapes, ceiling hatches, ledges, roofs, or windows. At that point, I'm not so much securing my muzzle in a high position as covering high threats my eyes are looking at.
There are times when a high carry of pistol is applicable during tactical team entry and I will not elaborate.
When working with a buddy or team, high carry is also (unfortunately) a good way to shoot a friend in the back of the head or upper torso.
From a combatives point of view, there is a lot more physiology working against you if your pistol muzzle is high and you have to break a gun grab, grapple, or protect your weapon.
YMMV.
P.S. - "High Sabrina" is a tongue-in-cheek derogatory term for what Jolly Roger explained earlier concerning tight screen shots of actors' faces. Older members will remember promo shots and opening scenes from the original Charlie's Angels TV show circa 1970s....
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