Muzzle Movement, Bullet Deflection, And Gunfight Accuracy

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pluspinc,

on DA/SA triggers...

Many semi autos function this way.. your DA trigger pull IS NOT the same as your SA trigger pull on your second shot.. so yeah, IF you get a second shot out of your walther (or whatever) it will be a single action trigger pull. You SHOULD practice shooting in both modes, agreed?

Yeah if deer shot back it would be a more interesting sport, and not one most people would ELECT to play. And most guys don't have the stones to take a cape buffalo at six yards either. The point of hunting (as training) is that you DO shoot in "real world" conditions. Often things happen VERY fast, in bad light, in crappy weather, when you are tired and worn out and just trying to stay warm or awake, and you usually only get one shot. You'll find guys talking about "buck fever" the way bill jordan talked.. you'll also hear that from anyone who has been hit by that adrenaline spike.

So here is my question to you since you do all this research and training how do YOU simulate "stress factors" that you keep talking about??

Dr.Rob
 
So here is my question to you since you do all this research and training how do YOU
simulate "stress factors" that you keep talking about??
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
NOBODY can recreate the FRIGHT. It is NOT stress. Don't confuse the two. Stress has NO relationship to real issues. Even with very low level of just stress shooters still make serious errors. Imagine the impact of FRIGHT. They screw up in just target shooting matches.
As for the web page we are choosing shootings that show up well on a PC. Many are hard to see properly. As to the "stance" you have to see all of the video. There is NO stance. It has an appearance that it is close etc., but in reality it is a common thread even with those with NO training. We assume a common "sea legs" type stance which is genetic to humans. Right handed almost always have left foot forward. As for the White house the video shows that both arms go straight when the shot is fired and you didn't mention the other officers. We hope to get up more videos but they show the same thing. It just isn't there.
Our web page is in its infancy.


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Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
 
Specialists in the use and training of lethal force. :rolleyes: He aint never gonna get it, guys. His way is not the only way (thank God). Can't we just put him on "ignore" or something????
 
fastfory? Seems you found "the way." Please enlighten us. With a 92% miss rate someone must be using a secret system to get the 8% hit rate. It is?
Whatever is on line now sure doesn't work. I put whatever is out there now on "ignore."
Some folks still want to buy new Yugo's and the flat earth society has new members each day.
 
Quote: I put whatever is out there now on "ignore."

A closed mind is the perfect thing to waste.

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The Bible is my lawbook. I turn the other cheek when applicable, and spend the rest of my days resisting evil at every front, until I have breathed my last breath.
 
Ok so what you have said is

EVERBODY MISSES

YOU CAN'T DUPLICATE FRIGHT

SO why bother to train AT ALL??

Apparently all us flat earth living neanderthals are INCAPABLE of uderstanding what ever training practices you employ.. because you haven't stated one.

So I'm asking you .. how do YOU train it?

Dr.Rob

From everything I've EVER read or heard about how the army trains is DO THIS (train) enough times and there WILL BE a greater chance of you DOING IT RIGHT even when TSHTF, (its dark tyou are scared etc) because its become second nature, instinctual, etc.

So you just pointed out EVEN guys get scared shooting a MATCH (and no one is shooting at them). I find when I'm competeing I shoot better .. i try harder, focus more, etc. ANYONE can get butterflies. But in the line of reasoning thus far that you have offered shooting in a match has NOTHING to do with 'shooting scared" so why even use it as an example?
 
All (OK -most) of this is purely subjective and theoretical. Even the input from Bill Jordan is largely his opinion- and was he being serious?
All people do not react the same to stress, excitement, fear, fatigue or whatever factors you want to include in your blend.
Also, some people actually disassociate, deliberately or accidently and can handle intense situations with few if any physiological changes.
I think the bottom line is that we need to realize that once we are in a true life or death situation, we are not in Kansas any more.

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
It isn't an issue of "why train?" It is an issue to train with what can work, not having a menu so big it can't be accessed. How much time do you think you get in a shooting? It isn't a movie with commercials.
A real shooting isn't "butterflies." As to what we teach, it is BONE simple. But not room here to explain it in depth. But you can take it to the bank, that if you think some fancy LONG INTENSE menu of training can be applied in the street, I got news for you.
We've tried to make it a ballet. It is more like a quick step IF you are lucky.
First order of business is to figure out what the bad guys do, NOT what you will do. They will make all the decisions. It is self DEFENSE, not self OFFENSE. Wise be the man that knows which is which. One puts you in jail, the other might if you don't know the rules and apply them.

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Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
 
I agree completely with Ed Brunner. Everyone reacts differently to STRESS and FRIGHT. I've never been in a gunfight, but I've been in fights and brawls. I've been creamed by some pretty non-intimidating opponents when sparring. But I've done my best fighting when I have gotten into fights on the street, when sometimes I've been scared to death.

I like your website, pluspinc. I found it very informative and sobering. I find you to seem like a high-and-mighty a-hole, however. Try talking TO us, not DOWN on us.
 
Once again, didn't read all the posts ... the "technical aspects" of all the professionals was hard to wade through ....

If in a "close in" situation, I draw, wipe the safety on the way up & shoot at the target. The bullet hits (within reason) the target. The "new & never tried before! double-tap/check & repeat" works OK. Call it point & shoot if you want. When I grab a telephone, I don't bother with looking at sights. I reach out & grap the phone ... seems that I haven't grabbed the salt by mistake so far.

If you practice some dry firing excercises w/"get the gun & point," you'll proabably find that "most" (of those that actually practise with their pistols) can point & shoot just by using the index finger as their "sights." It's as instinctive as - uhm - pointing.

Do it now! "draw" your strong hand, get your two-handed thing going (the quick slap the hands together bit) & point at a point on the wall - a light-switch will work (10'+ easy) & then check your "sight alignment." Most likely, you're pretty close. If not - practise.

You can very easily do this (w/o a pistol) by just "drawing your hand" & pointing with your index finger, sighting along (after you point) & see where it's at.

Maybe this is some kind of problem for some folks but it is as natural as scratching an itch for me.

& yes, I have been on the correct end of the sharp stick.

Unless you have a disability where you have to use a different finger, why would you not use your index (pointer - why'd they call it that?) finger?

And sticking some rubber-dubby thingy on a pistol? Why? Even using the next (best) finger still doesn't make me want to peel 'n stick something extra on the shooter as my finger's already "there."

Won't be the first time I've been accused of being an idiot, but I still don't get it.

And as far as cops being notorious shots in SD situations - nothing new. Most LEOs I've ever seen on-range suck as shooters & these are the ones who are trying.

May be that if LEO depts train for shooting rather than being social workers the % points would go up a bit. Zip flames on the good LEOs - I've seen a few that could & I've seen a bunch that couldn't. (talking about shooting ability here - nothing else)

And that most likely goes with the general population as a whole.
 
Compare me to an evangelist. I shout the gospel based on experience and CONCERN to keep folks alive. Folks that carry guns should have a thick hide. If I can get to them on a PC, imagine what a thug can do on the street. I just had a class of media types today, the most difficult there is and they brought along some lawyers. It got HOT in that classroom but we learned there. On the range they had a circus and will be coming back. As on student said, " Gosh, noobody falls asleep in that classroom." I call it mental gymnastics and we have spent a decade (and will continue) to get it polished to the point it sticks in the brain.
Unlike many "experts" that hide behind the gun rags and don't want to or won't face shooters on the internet we come right out in front and let folks take a swing at us.
I have several students on TFL and I would expect them to have both good and bad to say about our program, but like the preacher taking care of his flock, even my worst critics are always welcome to ask questions and I will spend money to find out the answer. We offer students FREE legal back-up and FREE reattendance as often as they like to our basic program.
I don't mean this as a commercial, but as a foundation for being serious about self-defense and wade through the BS that fills the fields of the issues.
Most shooters have suspected some of the BS going around but had little support of those views. The web and things like TFL are making incredible inroads to get to the basic truths. On TFL you will find more REAL experience in one day then a lifetime of gun rags. and much of the info is top quality real life stuff.
The future of TFL is bright. But I will never wimp out on the issues. It is just to serious to do that.
 
I've done two books. One for teens and what they need to know about law enforcement. It is sold in public and private schools. The other "Too Close for Complacency" was done in the early 90's and well accepted by CIA, Dept of Defense, US Airforce, and others. I am just finishing "Fatal Shadows." One thing about this one. It will upset EVERYONE. I attack with a scientific vengence with full noted scientific sources the BS in training.
But watch, they will attack me and not the sources. Messengers are much easier targets.
If you want email me at darrell@plusp.com and I'll send you a sample of it.
DM

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Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
 
Hi guys,

I appreciate your comments since I was
away at Palm Springs for a week. Tough
doing nothing in the sun, but then someone
has to do it.

Here are a few respones to them:

1. At the Vermont Police Academy
hundreds of test were made using
Point Shooting : that is using
only the index finger to aim with,
and using the middle finger to pull
the trigger. It also is superior
anatomically for that task than is
the index finger.

2. The method was used successfully
with a wide variety of handguns and
rifles. Data on the is on my web page
if you are interested. The URL is: http://members.aol.com/okjoe/ps.htm

3. Using a two handed grip, you can
use your right index finger to aim
with and pull the trigger with your
left index finger if you wish.

4. Using the sites to my mind, or
even just using the front site and
having it and the target aligned in
some fashion requires some brain use
in an instinctive situation.

5. I can instinctively point accurately
with my index finger. So, if the gun
barrel is aligned with my finger, and
if I at a minimum can point my finger at
the target and pull the trigger I will
hit it. The plus to this is that the
only brain action needed is to point
and pull, and those actions are almost
just instinctive actions.

6. The subject of this thread is Muzzle
movement and Bullet Deflection... If
you do not control the situation by
using your index finger to aim with,
you will in all likelyhood miss unless
your front site is in perfect alignment
with the back site when you pull the
trigger as the gun jumps and bucks in
your hand and as you pull the trigger.
The front site may be on the target
but is the back of the gun in perfect
alignment with the front? Also, will
the trigger pull requirement cause
deflection as well?

7. A finger rest allows you to place
your index finger in the proper place
when you grasp the gun without thinking
about it and at day or night and under
different conditions. It keeps it there
when you shoot multiple times rapidly
which is what happens in real time
shootouts. Check out the videos.

8. A pistol is not a small rifle.
To use one beyond 30 feet unless you
have absolutely no other option, to
my mind is asking to be killed.

9. Why poo poo an idea unless you
have tried it???

10. It's easy to try, and you don't
even need a finger rest to do that.
The finger rest just makes finger
placement easy and reliable when
someone will be trying to kill you
and you will be trying to kill them.
All you need to do is point and pull.

I could go on and on, but will stop.

Thanks again for all of your comments

John Veit aka okjoe@aol.com


[This message has been edited by okjoe at aol.com (edited February 09, 2000).]
 
Any P.D.'s adopt your device yet?


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"all my fingers are factory fingers"
 
Not yet, but I keep on trying to get
them to at least test P&S.

I have several sub pages of comments
pro and con on P&S on my web page.

Some think it is a good idea, and some
think I am crazy. None of those who
have been critical, have said that they
tried P&S and found that doesn't work.

Since they all have guns and shoot them
at least now and then, it would be an
easy thing to test. And I have found
that gun folks are not relutant to tell
you what is on their minds.

However, keeping ones head in the sand
whilecops get shot and killed at the
rateone every seven days or so for the
past ten years, is not to my mind, the
way to improve casualty rates.

Those who have guns should try P&S.

It works.

The next step will be to stand up for
those who stand up for us, and demand
change.

But remember that if you do that, you
probably will be labeled a trouble making
nut case who is on a mission. And that
of course will do wonders for your career
and advancement potential.

Again, no one to date who has tried P&S:
aiming the gun with the index finger
and pulling the trigger with the middle
finger or left index finger has said it
doesn't work?

How about you experts and shooters?

I am awaiting a response in Washington.
 
While I am certainly no expert, the term "point shooting" seems to bring a different image to my mind then seems to be expressed in this thread. The only fellow who I have talked to who had actually killed another man in combat with a pistol, was a paratrooper in WWII. He said that he had been taught to "point shoot" in training and that it was stressed that the technique was strictly for close quarters. He said the instructor told them to bring the pistol up and forward to shoulder level extending the arm out as if "pointing with the index finger at the point you want to hit and as the elbo locks into the place the tension in the finger muscles is taken up and bang! One shot, one kill." When you are a kid and an army brat to boot, you remember things like that. He said he was taught to hip shoot as well, but said he never had occaision to use it, although he did say it was a variation of point shooting only stabilizing the elbo to the hip and turning the body to "point the weapon." My wrestling coach, who was a marine raider had similar recollections of his training. Both said it was more instincitve then anything taught and the instructors purposely kept it that way. Anything that required thought would get you killed they said. The origional K.I.S.S. Just thought you might like hearing the story. I wonder if any of you WWII vets can recall any similar training?
 
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