Muzzle Movement, Bullet Deflection, And Gunfight Accuracy

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okjoe

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Muzzle Movement, Bullet Deflection, And Gunfight Accuracy
.
When shooting, small amounts of muzzle movement can
significantly affect accuracy. The table below, shows the
amount of bullet deflection at various distances that will
occur with various amounts of muzzle movement.

Bullet Deflection With Muzzle Movement

Distances --- Bullet deflection with muzzle movement of:

____________1/8in___2/8in___3/8in____4/8in___5/8in

____5ft_______1in_____2in_____3in_____4in_____5in

___10ft_______2in_____4in_____6in_____8in____10in

___15ft_______3in_____6in_____9in____12in____15in

___20ft_______4in_____8in____12in____16in____20in

___25ft_______5in____10in____15in____20in____25in


Example: If your gun muzzle is just 3/8in off from the exact
center of a chest sized target (11in wide x 17in tall), and you
are at a distance of only 15 feet, you will miss.

If you consider the table data, trigger resistance,
recoil forces when shooting, and the conditions that
are experienced in close quarters shooting situations,
it is clear why close quarters shooting accuracy is
as bad as it is.

In the 100+ years since the modern pistol came into use,
gun makers, experts, and trainers, have yet to come up
with a practical means and method for quick and accurate
shooting that can be taught and which works in real time
close quarters shooting situations.

As such, it is no wonder that you get shoot first and ask
questions later situations and hair-trigger-ready-to-shoot
situations with their tragic consequences that can cost
millions to settle, and much more in terms of lives lost,
careers ruined, and loss of respect for Law and order.

Those who write about gunfights as authorities, say that
in close quarters shooting situations, instincts come into
play and training often times goes out the window.

That thought is supported by news accounts of shootings
that I have read, and TV films of real time shootings I have
seen. Two things are common to almost all of them, first,
accuracy is very poor, and second, most shooters fire rapidly.

In the past 40 years, I have seen as a spectator two real
time shootings where shots were fired rapidly and where no
one was hit.

It is quixotic and oxymoronic to me that handguns which are
used for self protection in life and death close quarters
shooting situations, do not have a ready and reliable means
for accurately shooting them in those situations.

Here's How The Table Values Were Determined:
1. The values are actual values, or very close approximations.
2. The circumference of a series of circles was determined
using the table distances as radii.
3. The circumferences were halved to get the lengths of 180
degree arcs that correspondeded to the distances.
4. The muzzle point was considered to be 7 inches out from
zero, and the length of a 180 degree arc with a 7 inch
radius was determined.
By chance, each degree of that arc equals 1/8in. Inches
in eighths instead of degrees were used on top of the
muzzle movement columns for ease of understanding.
5. The muzzel movement amounts expressed as percentages
of the 180 degree arcs, (1/180, 2/180, 3/180 4/180, 5/180),
were applied to the arc lengths get the deflection amounts.
6. Because an arc is a curve rather than a line, the deflection
amounts shown are approximate values. However, they
are very close to the exact deflection amounts because
the arcs at the distances shown, are very large relative to
the deflection amounts.

You also can use a metal tape measure to check out the table.
1. Pull out ten feet of tape and lock it. Then place the edge
of the tape on a straight line on a floor that is formed by
the edges of boards, where floor tiles meet, etc.. You may
need to tap it a bit so it will form a straight line.
2. Mark the floor at 10 feet, and at 7 inches out from that mark.
At the 7 inch mark, make marks at 1/8, 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2
inches away from the line and on the left side of the line.
3. Using the 10 foot mark of the tape as your starting point,
keep that point on the line and move the tape off the line
so that it will be on the 1/8th inch mark . You may need
to tap the tape a bit again.
4. The edge of the 5 foot mark on the tape will be 1 inch off
line, and the edge of the start of the tape will be 2 inches
off line.
5. Other table values can be checked in the same manner.

The table shows why most gunfights take place at distances
under thirty feet. Only the exceptionally good shooter would
be able to shoot well enough to hit a chest sized target at a
distance beyond 30 feet.

That means that your safest course of action is to get away,
run away, or otherwise disappear fast and quick if you can.

The table also shows that handguns can be very effective at
close range. I recently saw an old TV clip of real executions
in which handguns were used. Three people with their hands
tied behind them, were brought into an open area of a city
square. They were shoved down onto their knees, and killed
with one quick shot to the head from three to five feet away.
Each one was killed by a different shooter.

Unless there is a need to restrain a person directly, there is
no reason to have a gun up close to a person. Up to a
distance of 5 feet, the muzzel would have to be more than an
inch off the target center for you to miss a chest shot. Also
if the person is about five feet away, there will be less of a
chance that the person will grab your gun or attack you.

The table also shows that it makes sense to turn sideways
to an adversary in a shooting situation. If you are half as
thick as you are wide, and you turn sideways, your chance
of being shot will be reduced by 50 percent.

Why give your adversary the largest possible target when he
or she is trying to kill you? Why not turn sideways and then
shoot if needed.

The table also indicates that if you turn sideways, you will be
next to invisible to an adversary at distances beyond 10 feet.
That is unless he or she is an exceptionally good shooter
who can keep the gun muzzle within 1/8 inch of the exact
center of your slim silhouette, or has a gun with a P&S Index
Finger Rest, or it is unfortunately, a most unlucky day for you.

I am a proponent of Point & Shoot and the P&S Index Finger
Rest. They provide the method and means for fast, accurate,
and instinctive shooting at day or night in close quarters.

For more info. on P&S, visit: http://members.aol.com/okjoe/ps.htm
 
Sorry for sounding so cynical (don't I always?), but it sounds to me like okjoe is trying real hard (too hard) to sell us on another gadget. We have all been trained to shoot a gun using our index fingers. We would have to re-train using this new gizmo. Even then, what do you think most of us that have been shooting for a while will do when we are confronted with a life-threatening shooting situation? Do you really think you are going to squeeze that trigger with your middle finger? Hey okjoe, how about getting a feel for TFL before trying to sell some snake oil?
 
I was going to do a post on this a few minutes back & decided not to. Alas, here I am again ... not much of this "okjoe" stuff flies so far for me on the surface, & no, I won't do the trig to see if the #s are on the money or not.

Pistols are indeed ergonometrically designed to do exactly what they do so well in the hands of a trained & proficient person. Duh! That's why they're shaped the way they are & with the sighting systems they have.

May be that there's more to learn - won't ever discount that - but a rubber-dubby thingy & switch from what works already? Not likely. Why not just train folks to shoot the way the good shooters shoot? Seems pretty simplistic.

"Snake oil" indeed comes to mind.

If Jeff Cooper, et al buy into it, I'll (maybe) take a look at it. Right.

Jeez! comes to mind somehow .....

Maybe it's John Holt in drag? ;)
 
If Jeff Cooper "buys into it" or a few others it will become a HOT fad like laser sights and night sights and a host of other trinkets.

------------------
Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
 
Techically
Deflection=The horizontal clockwize angle measured from the rearward extension of the line of fire. Or the effect of a round skipping off a hard object.
Human error or sight picture is not a funtion of deflection.

A much simpler solution is the Mil-relation formula that is know to all artillerymen, mortarmen, and machine gunners. That is W= R x M. W represent the width of the error (or required movement). R equals range divided by 1000 ( a milaradian subtends 1 unit at 1000 units, hence 1000 inches would equal 1, 100 inches would equal .1, etc, these numbers are normally applied to meters or yards but can be used for any other unit of linear measurement). M equal milradians measured ( a milaradian equal 1/6400 of a complete circle. For increased accuracy one can multiply by 1.0186 to convert a circular measurement to a strait line distance)

------------------
God truly fights on the side with the best artillery

[This message has been edited by STLRN (edited January 30, 2000).]
 
Folks: As I posted on another thread on this board, shooting in the "new" manner described herein has worked for me for several years, since the time arthritis in my index fingers screwed them up. Thus, I have no problem with the method, I use it. With practice, practice, practice it can be very fast and accurate. My issue is with the gizmo. Who needs it? Why do they need it? I've shot this way 2 to 3 times per week for the past 3+ years and I didn't need no gizmo. I did need, and still need, lots of regular practice. Regards, Dennis
 
Twenty-nine hundred thousandths of an inch per inch of sight radius is equal to 1 minute of angle. Thus, approximately 2 thousandths of an inch deflection of the muzzle on a Government Model with 5" barrel is equal to 1 minute of shot displacement, or about 1/4" at 25 yards. 1/2" at fifty yards and 1 inch at 100 yards. So, roughly 4 thousandths of an inch movement of the muzzle will give you about one bullet diameter displacement at 25 yards.
Since your shots will probably be within 24 feet from the muzzle (if it is possible to state an average distance for gun fights...and this is the FBI's figure, not mine)point shooting will get you through, if you have had a competent instructor who understands point shooting under stress and can teach it to students.
 
The figures are an exercise in theopry which has no application to handgunnery because it is based on angles within a 14" circle with the rear sight as the center and the front sight on the circumference.
For a human to get much use out of these figures his eye would have to be in the same position as the rear sight, otherwise the angles mean nothing. Most humans cannot operate a postol with their eye in the same position as the rear sight.
Much ado about nothing.

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 
I like deflection, and regularly practice muzzle movement.

--------------------------------------------

"all my misses are factory misses"
 
To those that hoot and holler.

Next time you watch one of those
History channel shows on guns,
watch the wiggle waggle of the gun
muzzel in those slow mo shots of
someone shooting. I suppose that
in the heat of a real time shooting,
that shooter will calmly wait until
the muzzle is under control and
stops moving, line up the sights,
and then squeeze the trigger
carefully.

I am sure the experts do that, and
you who shoot a lot do that.

But what about the rest of the
shooters out there and particularly
your anxious home defender who
probably bought a gun with the idea
that when it came time to use it
for self defense.

Gun makers don't say you have to
practice, practice, practice or your
gun is useless. Haven't seen that
in adds.

Trainers say its not the gun, it's
the person holding it. You must
train, train, train.

But, neither trainers or gun makers
or the "experts" have come up with
something that works and that can
be learned and applied when the
chips are down even by trained gun
professionals.

In the last ten years, police officers
have been feloniously shot and killed
at the rate of one every seven days,
and thousand and thousand have been
wounded. Police casualty rates stink.

Wouldn't you agree that something better
than more of the same is needed for the
next ten years?.

I challenge you experts to come up
with something that works, and have
it endorsed by the NRA, and published
as a flyer and posted in all gun
stores and included with each gun
sold.
 
Okjoe, your web site implies that a point shooting technique has been used successfully with military rifles at ranges over 300 meters. Is this true?
 
OK you want to know something about "point" shooting?

(sliding noise of soapbox moving into place)

1. Get your self some florescent paint (yellow, pink, green, orange whatever, it just needs to be BRIGHT)

2. paint the backside of your front sight.

3. when you get ready to shoot. remember to hold that front site directly UNDER what you want to hit. (you are POINTING the front site like a shotgun) Chances are you will end up holding LOW (that's ok in point shooting)

4. Fire your shots singly, rapid fire, or from a draw or by picking your gun up off the bench (preferably all scenarios)

5. Ignore the rear site and look OVER the gun.

With practice you will see that you can consistantly place 5 shots into a circle the size of a baseball in a very short time.

The front sight (the bright fuzzy thing you are NOT focusing on) should rest directly under your point of impact (or nearly so).

a. Ignore your rear site.

b. Concentrate on the CENTER of the target.

c. Bring the gun up to your line of sight.

d. When the painted dot appears below the center of the TARGET pull the trigger.


OK is this "target shooting?" NOPE

Is this IPSC good shooting practice? NOPE is it good CYA practice? YEP

Will this work on 25+yard head shots at a moving speed freak with a scattergun? NOPE , but at fifteen feet you'll hit center mass.

Point shooting is NOT target shooting. Handguns, in MOST people's hands are imprecise tools at best for LONG range engagements, due to SHORT Sight radius and the discussion above. A SMALL error means a BIG error at LONG range.

At close range, a small error can be nullified by keeping your eyes on the TARGET, rather than concentrating on your sights.

Its always worked for me,

Dr.Rob

(sound of soapbox being put away)

PS that sideways stance is how they USED to teach it in the military and police.
 
I have practised instinctive shooting,unsighted,below the shoulder.I empty
the magazine as quickly as I can.After several years of doing this once or twice a
week,I can nail a 4in group at 5 yards.I have
no doubt that any competent shooter who does
the practice could do the same or better.
All you have to do is practice 'til it's
second nature.
 
What I call P&S (Point Shooting)is
where you use your index finger to
point at the target and pull the
trigger with your middle finger or
left index finger. The advantaqe to
that to my way of thinking, is that
you do not have to sight anything
or think about anything but pointing
your finger at the target and pull
the trigger. It is point-pull-bam-
buck-point-pull-bam-buck-point-pull
and so forth. Since the gun barrel
is aligned with your finger, if you
point at the target, which we can do
instinctively and accurately after
a million or so years of using it to
identify threats, the barrel will be
pointing at the target.

The following military weapon
info was taken from a paper
written by the lead firearms
instructor for the VSP and
reflects testing experience
at the Vermont Police Academy.

More info and the full digest
of that paper is on my web site
along with other stuff on P&S.
The url is: http://members.aol.com/okjoe/ps.htm

US Military -
M16A1 @ 300 meters
M14 @ 500 meters
M21 @ 500 meters
M1 @ 300 meters
M24 @ 700 meters

I am unfamiliar with those arms
except for the M1 Garand and
Carbine, and grease gun. The
only gun I used P&S with was the
grease gun and I was told to use
P&S when shooting from the hip.

I will be gone for a week if you
have other questions, and will
check back then, or respond to
e-mails.

Thank you for your interest.

PS I made a test in 9/98 using a test P&S
index finger rest and was able to hit an
11x17 inch target at a distance of 25 feet
6 out of 7 times when shooting as fast as
I could point my finger at the target and
pull the trigger.

No big deal to regular shooters I am sure,
but I had not shot any firearm in over 40
years when I made the test.

Here is what another party said:

I have shot using the P&S method. I have had varied results.

I shot 700 rounds using the method with my S&W 4506.
100 at 1 yard (quick draw...shoot from the hip)
100 at 3 yards double tap technique
100 at 5 yards 3 rounds in 5 seconds
100 at 7 yards 3 rounds in 5 seconds
100 at 10 yards
100 at 15 yards
100 at 25 yards

From 10 yards and under, I found that it was extremely accurate...
and to be honest... how many gun fights will you get into at more
than that?

At the 15 yard mark, I had trouble keeping the target, until I
canted the weapon to the left (I'm a righty shooter)... gangster
style... but not as much cant... maybe 45 degrees.

At the 25 yard mark, I had trouble hitting the target. I can see
the potential for this technique, but I guess I must practice it
at long range to become extremely accurate.

I think I would be a great idea to have this technique taught at
the police academies and also have the gun manufacturers create a
grip with the guide built in... but maybe not as wide off the grip.
Maybe a 1/4 inch off the gun... just using it as support anyway.



[This message has been edited by okjoe at aol.com (edited January 31, 2000).]
 
okjoe,

I don't understand WHAT "point shooting" has to do with rifles.. since your finger is a very imprecise tool for long range engagement, ( the sight radius of your finger is only 5 or six inches and deflection from your tables should still apply) or for that matter what it has to do with hip shooting.

Now I have done a drill where you lock your elbow on your hip and try to move keeping the gun level and rigid.. yeah its accurate out to 15 feet or so.. but for scoring long range shots?? That what sights are for.

Dr.Rob
 
(Getting hernia moving soap box back into place).....
1. Get your self some florescent paint (yellow, pink, green, orange whatever, it just needs to be BRIGHT)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You ASSUME shootings will be in daylight? 85% or more are NOT. And why would you look there? Vision is hard to come by and most loads will blind you. Also "weapon threat focus" takes over (no, you CAN'T train out of it based on SCIENCE vs gun rags) and you WILL look at what is trying to kill you.
2. paint the backside of your front sight.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
(how about a Rembrandt or a happy face?)

3. when you get ready to shoot. remember to hold that front site directly UNDER what you want to hit. (you are POINTING the front site like a shotgun) Chances are you will end up holding LOW (that's ok in point shooting)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Refer to above and this is an issue at arms length or room range where 90% of shootings take place? And the target will LET you do this? So far you left the bad guy out of this and his/her say in things.

4. Fire your shots singly, rapid fire, or from a draw or by picking your gun up off the
bench (preferably all scenarios)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Are we making movies or talking self defense?

The REALITY is that many will FORGET They even have a gun. IF we remember that much our options are limited to almost nil. If you look at REAL videos of REAL shootings you see how it works even when we would think that the shooter could do all of the above. I have a student who is one of the ORIGINAL Israeli Masaad members from April of 1951 with dozens of confirmed handgun kills. He had to take my class to get a civilian carry permit interstingly enough. When we finished the shooting part he came into my office and closed the door and we had a LONG talk. By accident we had chosen a system that is pretty close to what they use. I think few would argue they are probably the finest handgun fighters in the world, or close to it.
He still makes custom/duty guns for old members and friends. He showed me several he has taken back "home" and they don't have sights at all. He did make me a TARGET .45 with sights but he made it clear it was a TARGET gun.
One of their "drills" is to have 11 students sit on a bus or aircraft fuselage and sit among sandbags dressed as arabs. They lower the lights and the student has to RUN through the bus or aircraft and HIT each sandbag using LIVE ammo. He chuckles at paint ball like training. I mentioned that they had to have someone hurt from time to time. He smiled and said, " what good is training without consequences?" Our training is pretty meek by any standard.
I haven't seen him in the past few years but I spent many many hours with him. No buzzwords, no cliches, just an incredible pool of real world knowledge.
It seems strange that myself and each of you has fired at frontal facing targets most of our lives. But in the REAL world such shootings make up only 15% or less of shootings. Bet most didn't know that.
What shooters also do not understand is that the CLOSER the target is to us the HIGHER miss rate.
100 yard shooting with a 2 inch .38 special is a breeze. Try a target that is trying to kill you and the shots seldom hit within most room type situations.
We will load more real shooting videos on our web page where it keeps happening time and time again. Seems some still deny our ability to hit in such situations.
We keep thinking we can THINK out way out of a bad spot, which once the decision is made to shoot, thinking will get us killed. The idea is to reduce the amount of information we will need to process and let our instincts take over. We hate to give up the control.
But it works.
"Point shooting" is really INSTINCTIVE and our instincts when faced with danger won't let us use logic and education. We are FORCED to instincts (genetics) and if we try to jam thinking against our instincts we create a monster that will fail to perform.

Now if I can get this soap box put back without a truss I'll feel better.
 
Pluspinc,

1.florescent paint still shows up well in LOW light conditions (not NO Light conditions) and won't cost $100.

2. training for the movies?/ no I mean learn to pick up your gun and shoot.. whether its in your holster, on the nightstand, single AND double action. You know like Firing a DA shot, an SA shot, decocking and doing the drill again. Leaving the gun in a Drawer on the bench, etc. The point i was trying to make here is a lot of 'training" puts students in the "ready stance" as opposed to a more realistic condition.

3. I never said look at your front sight, i said look at the TARGET, when your front sight comes into your sight plane you pull the trigger.. very much like engaging a clay pigeon with a shotgun. IE when the lil BRIGHT FUZZY DOT enters your Focus (the target) you pull the trigger.

4. OK since NONE of us HAS a DC9 Fuselage and friends WILLING to let us fire live ammo at them and we aren't all cops... here's a low light OH crap simulator most of us can afford:

Smoke a pack of cigarettes and drink 2 pots of coffee, snort a pixie stick or two. Put the guy in the stall next to you firing a desert eagle 50 (that should simulate your confusion, adrenaline and flinch levels) face the target BACKWARDS and put on your DARK sunglasses. When the range instructor yells GO and shoves you, turn around and pick up or unholster your piece and fire (the range officer is moving the target towards you at 6 mies per hour from 20 feet to point blank) TRY to score 2 hits in the vitals.

Does that sound more reasonable?? Lets face it money doesn't grow on trees, and not everyone can afford, or is physically capable of mossad training with or without sights.

I think it is important to TRY hipshooting, point blank engagement and other drills, but the basics have to be down first. a LOT of "practical" training like your mossad pals do is NOT safe gun handling by a NOVICE, they didn't START their training doing all these amazing things.

MY only "real world" shoot was documented here previously 3 shots fired and 3 hits at a moving target at 15 feet. Now maybe that isn't "tactical" or life threatening.. it was a four legged critter after all.. but I managed to shoot EXACTLY like I train. Could I train more? SURE . Would I like to? OF COURSE. I really don't consider myself a great shot with a handgun, and I'd like to learn more.

The BIGGEST thing you have pointed out (and I have in other threads) is that TARGET shooting is NOT the same as shooting under stress.. its the same reason a guy who can split hairs on a gnat's butt at the range often misses his deer in the woods.

I still don't understand "Point shooting" a rifle at 300 yards.. that what sights are for.

Nor do I understand the need to buy some thingamajig that makes you point your finger at the target, one of the first fundamentals of shooting a pistol is pointing it like your finger.

Anyway my poiint was not to start a flame war, rather to provide an economical option to okjoe's thingamajig. Am I an expert? NOPE never claimed to be, just relaying what worked for me.

Dr.Rob



[This message has been edited by Dr.Rob (edited February 02, 2000).]
 
It's not about flaming. It is about LIVING. And about REALITY.

Pluspinc,

1.florescent paint still shows up well in LOW light conditions (not NO Light conditions)
and won't cost $100.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You still ASSUME you will look at the gun in a real shooting. Wish we could find it on REAL videos of such things. We are still looking 900+ videos later.

2. training for the movies?/ no I mean learn to pick up your gun and shoot.. whether its
in your holster, on the nightstand, single AND double action. You know like Firing a DA
shot, an SA shot, decocking and doing the drill again. Leaving the gun in a Drawer on the bench, etc. The point i was trying to make here is a lot of 'training" puts students in the "ready stance" as opposed to a more realistic condition.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Single action? Just what you need is a 3 pound trigger in such a situation. What makes you think the thug will LET YOU get any kind of a stance. Visit my web page and look at an officer fighting for his life with a 300 pound thug on top of him, or the videos of real shootings we put up. Find me a "stance." It isn't a sporting event.

3. I never said look at your front sight, i said look at the TARGET, when your front sight comes into your sight plane you pull the trigger.. very much like engaging a clay pigeon with a shotgun. IE when the lil BRIGHT FUZZY DOT enters your Focus (the target) you
pull the trigger.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Facing death is not like shooting clay pigeons. The weapon threat focus is so intense you think you are looking down a tube. Very hard very narrow TUNNEL type vision in low light or darkness. A nice "theory" but after a few shootings and other nasty events I got the hint real fast about that "secondary" vision the gun rags talk about. When someone gets attacked by a dog they don't do well telling you how long the dog's tail was.

4. OK since NONE of us HAS a DC9 Fuselage and friends WILLING to let us fire live ammo
at them and we aren't all cops... here's a low light OH crap simulator most of us canafford:
Smoke a pack of cigarettes and drink 2 pots of coffee, snort a pixie stick or two. Put the guy in the stall next to you firing a desert eagle 50 (that should simulate your confusion, adrenaline and flinch levels) face the target BACKWARDS and put on your DARK
sunglasses. When the range instructor yells GO and shoves you, turn around and pick up
or unholster your piece and fire (the range officer is moving the target towards you at 6
mies per hour from 20 feet to point blank) TRY to score 2 hits in the vitals.
Does that sound more reasonable?? Lets face it money doesn't grow on trees, and not
everyone can afford, or is physically capable of mossad training with or without sights.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
NOT EVEN CLOSE. I asked Bill Jordan one day while having lunch at a Shot Show in New Orleans if he could put into words what it was like mentally to shoot someone. He smiled and leaned towards me in his best southern gentlemanly manner and said, " I have a good analogy. It is like TRYING to shoot someone at the peak of the best orgasm you ever had." Little did I know how right he is as many of the mental and physical changes we feel and experience in FRIGHT are very very close to that. As for shooting without sights and as the Israeli's shoot, it doesn't cost a dime more than conventional target shooting.
A problem with fright is that few of us ever experience this state in our lives and if we do it is rare we have to perform a complex task when we experience it or can evaluate our performance.
The only hope we have is a CLEAR understanding of what our mind and body will do in a state of fright. Little exists in this area until recently and the Internet has made it possible to harvest information never before available. The mind and body is not designed to shoot guns for defense. It is something so new the mind and body genetic code has not accepted it nor will it for thousands upon thousands of years. A clear disadvantage for us.

I think it is important to TRY hipshooting, point blank engagement and other drills, but
the basics have to be down first. a LOT of "practical" training like your mossad pals do is NOT safe gun handling by a NOVICE, they didn't START their training doing all these
amazing things.
MY only "real world" shoot was documented here previously 3 shots fired and 3 hits at a
moving target at 15 feet. Now maybe that isn't "tactical" or life threatening.. it was afour legged critter after all.. but I managed to shoot EXACTLY like I train. Could I train more? SURE . Would I like to? OF COURSE. I really don't consider myself a great shot with a handgun, and I'd like to learn more.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It would be interesting to see how many deer would be harvested if they shot back. I think the harvest rate would be rather low.

The BIGGEST thing you have pointed out (and I have in other threads) is that TARGET
shooting is NOT the same as shooting under stress.. its the same reason a guy who can
split hairs on a gnat's butt at the range often misses his deer in the woods.
I still don't understand "Point shooting" a rifle at 300 yards.. that what sights are for.Nor do I understand the need to buy some thingamajig that makes you point your finger
at the target, one of the first fundamentals of shooting a pistol is pointing it like your
finger.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I agree with you on your last thoughts. There is no need for a thigamajig on a gun. Nor can I imagine why I'd even try to point shoot with a rifle at all.
We have to start getting used to the idea that surviving is not about guns or bullets. It is about what highly limited response we can have to a REAL incident that triggers FRIGHT. Heck, stress is a tax audit.

Anyway my poiint was not to start a flame war, rather to provide an economical option
to okjoe's thingamajig. Am I an expert? NOPE never claimed to be, just relaying what
worked for me.

Dr.Rob


------------------
Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
 
Pluspinc: I looked at the pictures on your website. Here's what I found:

1) Although you point out, correctly, that most shootings will take place in dim light, all of the scenes shown in your gallery seem to be fairly well lit, if not in broad daylight.

2) In the top picture on page 5 (the shooting outside the White House), the cop on the left side of the picture appears to be in a Weaver-type stance: left foot forward, shooting arm straight, supporting arm bent.

3) In the next picture (the roadside shooting in Ohio), the bad guy appears to be in a crouched isosceles stance: torso square to the target, both arms extended, pistol held at eye level.

4) In the fourth picture (Ruby shooting Oswald), I think that a criminal assault in a room full of police officers is hardly a "very typical self-defense situation". The close range and the stunned reactions of the bystanders are typical, not the overall "situation".

5) On page 11, the second picture (the cop shooting at a car's driver) seems to show another instance of an isosceles stance, with the shoulders square to the target, but the position of the car between the camera and the cop makes it hard to tell.

Also, while you may be correct that "threat target focus" (or whatever the term is) makes it impossible for someone to see his pistol while shooting in a self defense situation, the pictures in your gallery don't show that. Perhaps the shooters are suffering from fright-induced tunnel vision, but most of the pictures show the pistols held high enough to be in a shooter's normal field of vision.

Those are just my impressions. Anyone else is welcome to visit www.plusp.com and come up with a different interpretation.
 
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