Muscle Memory Reflex???

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Pluspinc, I too have been impressed by your posts and the info available at www.pluspinc.com but I too have to disagree with you on this point.
I think it would be easy to agree that muscle memory doesn't play as big a part as some people might think, and also that it's become an overused buzzword for a few people.

However, saying that muscles don't have memory is indeed just semantics. Saying that something "has a memory" is just a way for humans to describe an object that appears to have a human trait even if they realize it doesn't. It's the same as people who tell you that water "wants" to go downhill, or your body man putting a torch to your fender because "metal has a memory" and will return to shape. Those people aren't trying to convince you that there's a brain in there making decisions, they just want to describe the event.

As for "automatic" responses being a myth, I don't buy it. Try to walk across the room while thinking consciously about EVERY motion. If you don't cheat, it should be pretty awkward because it just isn't a conscious motion except in the most general way.

And if you study education psychology, I bet you've heard of the multiple intelligences--verbal, mathematic, kinetic, and I forget the others. The point is, someone with high kinetic intelligence has an innate ability to use his/her body well, sense position and orientation, etc. Someone with this sort of intelligence would learn a "muscle-memory" action very quickly but might not be able to learn well from a textbook. Even if kinetic intelligence isn't your dominant trait, using it over and over can make you so dependent on it that you neglect others, like the gentleman above who can't visually recall his code but can recall it if he punches it in manually. My foible is my fiancee's phone number; with the off-campus dialing codes it has (took me a minute to check there :) ) 21 digits. I can't remember them in order, but I can dial it on a keypad.
 
I explained this folks. Do you need a quiz?

Cortex - evaluation and signals programmed
response.

Programmed response is what you call muscle
memory and established by practice.

Under stress, you can screw up signalling
the preprogrammed motor response. Adrenalin
dumps, retrieval problem - all well know to
interfer with retrieval and activation of
the stored motor programs.

Get brain damage in these systems and you do
have to walk under voluntary control.

Kinetic intelligence is a new buzz word.
If it really exists is unknown but cool
to discuss.

That's it. Don't need no more blue
sky psychology or neuroscience.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glenn E. Meyer:
So - when you learn a motor skill, you can
build an automatic execution program of that skill. It is probably stored in the cerebellum and some other squishy brain stuff . [/quote]

Yep, Glenn, that's called "muscle memory". Unless you have some basis for objecting to assigning a descriptive, yet not purely technically accurace phrase for it, such as "muscle memory". [remainder of post deleted - I was temp. being an a$$ - over it now]


[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited January 29, 2000).]
 
This is a very interesting thread.
Let me relate VERY quickly a story of mine: I was packing up for the day, out in the desert. Had nothing but my .45 on my hip (Para-ord P-14). Suddenly a lizard burst out of the bushes and runs between my legs. I found this very odd for a lizard to charge me, and found out why: there was a snake chasing it. The snake slithered up between my legs, then saw me at the last second (snakes have very bad vision). It coiled up where it lay, right in front of me. It was in mid coil when I realized that a bad situation was forming. Being in the crosshairs of an agitated snake, looking at my groin from a couple feet away, when the snake is scared is a bad place to be (it was a rattler, I had the tail and head saved). Keep in mind, this is happening in milliseconds here. I registered danger. This was life threatening danger, I was out in the desert by myself, a decent hike from the car and a long drive from a hospital and I had an excited rattler coiling up in front of me. Definitely life endangering, and I certainly perceived it as so. I reacted before I even realized it: I snapped free the thumb break on my hip holster, brought the gun up while stepping back into a classic mod weaver, clicked off the thumb safety and double tapped the snake. I took it's head clean off. When I double tapped the snake, it sprang into the air and then back with the impact of the bullet (I am not sure if I caught him right when he was striking, by the way he flew up and then back with the impact of the bullet as if I caught him in the head as he was coming forward), then I fired once more for a total of three shots. I did not finish the last double tap. It took me to the middle of the second double tap to realize the situation was over, so I halted firing. I had to tell my finger to stop firing. My conscious mind had to take over and stop my reaction, because I was reacting as I had programmed myself to and I did not even realize it. It happened so fast, I didn’t even realize what was going on until it was over. As I looked around I realized I had stepped back into a perfect modified weaver, just like I had always preferred, but I do not know how I got there. I reacted just like I had trained, even down to firing controlled pairs until the target stopped moving.

Now, some things to note:
In regards to another thread, I did NOT hear a loud noise of the gun going off even without ear protection. I heard it, but not very loud, and I don’t recall any hearing damage.
I DID look AT the snake and not at my sights, BUT (a BIG "BUT" here), I am an instinctive shooter and rarely train to use my sights anyway. I hit better or just as well without using my sights. Some people don’t believe me, but that is a discussion for another time. So, yes I did concentrate on the threat, but I train that way anyway, so that is no big revelation.
Oh yeah, BTW, I hit the snake three times, took his head off with two shots right at the ‘neck’ and severed him mid body with one shot. This was a moving target, very small, and I would consider it an "ambush". I had no idea it was coming, I had to react instantly from a relaxed state, and I don’t believe it would have mattered if it were a bad guy lunging out of the bushes with a knife or a snake lunging out of the bushes with poisonous fangs, I would have…and did…react the same to the ambush, exactly like I train and practice to react down to the detail (which means you have to be very careful how you practice, because you will react EXACTLY how you practice, even with the bad habits like standing still when you should be looking for cover etc, if you practice standing stationary all the time).

I did talk to my Physiology professor today who is a medical doctor who chose to specialize in the field of physiology. In so many words, he told me in no uncertain terms that you fight like you train. No, there is no technical term called "muscle memory", but just like many common terms (eg "Shock") that are construed by laymen, the term is not medical but the premise is.
An example given by my professor is the playing of music, say a guitar. If a person did not have ‘muscle memory’, then, for the time it takes to fire all the synapses and process the movements, no one could play the guitar very well at all. The tempo would be very very slow. But, practicing creates open pathways through your synapses that speed up the routes they travel. Action potential, the ability to fire off an impulse, gets a much lower resistance and the impulses can be fired very rapidly, with little stimulation. Your action potentials and synapses become used to being fired in that progression, and they automatically follow a practiced routine at lightning speed. According to basic laws, energy seeks the lowest resistance or the most conductive route. If you have programmed action potentials to fire in progression, and the resistance lessens along that route, then you will automatically take that route as a fall back reaction (which is why it is so tough to UNprogram bad habits in technique). So, when you practice a movement, like dropping into the weaver stance, and bringing your gun up from the holster, you are programming your muscles to take that route as the path of least resistance. In other words, you will perform like you practice, period. If you don’t practice, you won’t perform. This is called "freezing up" when you see a person gets in a fight/flight situation and just freezes. They are trying to access their memory to recall how to react, but they have not programmed it into reflex, and since their memory is blocked, they can’t recall or consciously tell themselves how to react. The key is to practice enough that you don’t have to consciously recall how to react, you just react.
When the time comes, you will not have the ability or time to recall your training, you will just react. If you have practiced, then your reaction will be what you have practiced (the more complex the movement, the more practice you need to make it reflexive). Your nerve reactions will electrically follow the premise of taking the path of least resistance and your reflexes will have you react to stimulations like you have trained them to. The action potentials that you have trained will be the path of least resistance and you will in effect, react just like you have trained and practiced. The key word here being PRACTICED.


I do commend people that train for combat and realism rather than target practice. As a person of many years in full contact H/H combat training, I have no patience for improper and unrealistic training like we see in a lot of martial arts dojos. It is the same thing we see in a lot of training with guns. People try to teach the sport aspect and apply it to the street. Things are very different on the street compared to the dojo or shooting range. In my case, and in my studies, YOU REACT LIKE YOU TRAIN, period. In fist fights I have been in, working as a bouncer, I react just like I train (on the other hand, some guys train bogus martial arts, and don’t practice, and when they do fight, they don’t do any of the stuff they learned…the key word once again being PRACTICE as well as training in realistic techniques and situations). When I was ambushed and caught off guard and had to shoot to save my life, I did EXACTLY like I had trained. I fell back into a perfect mod weaver and shot EXACTLY like I trained all my life, including grip, stance, thumbing the holster open and thumbing the safety off, and it all happened before I could think about it.
I attribute most Police failures as LACK OF TRAINING first of all.
How can we expect cops to react properly if they don’t PRACTICE? It is no wonder we see cops shooting with no proper stance and poor form, not even able to get their gun out of their holster, or forgetting it is there….they don’t practice!
Personally, I think that using Police officers as a source of "how effective training is" is not a good idea. Those guys don’t practice at all. Police officers IN GENERAL exhibit some of the most pathetic shooting skills of anyone that uses a gun for self defense. This is because many (not all) of them don’t take their shooting skills seriously and they only shoot twice a year. It is no wonder they exhibit such horrible form when they are called on to use their gun to save their life. Now, use some people that are serious about their trade and actually practice and I think that we would see more disciplined reactions utilizing their training.

So, I suggest that everyone find someone that teaches the down and dirty street version of combat and go to them. Practice the basics, keep it simple, and practice the simple parts a LOT to ingrain them into your brain. When it comes down to it, you will fall back to the lowest level of your training, and the portion that you practiced the most because your body will resort to the synaptic pathways that are established with the lowest action potentials and the least amount of resistance.
I think it also needs to be said that some people just fall into the fright syndrome much easier than others, and also, experience seems to alleviate this. That is why "street hardened" cops or criminals are both very effective. They have seen the elephant, and they are less likely to fall into the panic syndrome and freeze up. I see this all the time at my work as a bouncer. You can’t trust the new guys until they prove themselves. You never know how someone is going to react. It does not matter how tough they talk or how mean they look, some people just do the wierdest things when the poop hits the fan. You can only trust the experienced guys who have worked the jitters out and have seen the elephant. They tend to keep their cool and not panic. There is a lot to be said for individual makeup and how people individually react, as well as experience.

Now, I don’t know everything on the topic, but much of what pluspinc is talking about like ‘chunking’ is basic psychology covered in Psych 101. I think this topic is weighed between physiology and psychology, a combination thereof, and therefore Glenn Meyer certainly knows the psychology portion very well, an area that I am not extremely well versed in. Being a Biochemistry major with an emphasis on Nutrition and Physiology/Neurophysiology, I am quite familiar with Cortisol, Epineprhine, nerve actions etc and the chemomechanical reactions that charge our bodies in fight/flight. I am certainly not any expert, but what I do NOT know, my professors DO know as they are the leading experts in the world on the topic. I, and my professors, have to respectfully disagree with pluspinc. You will resort to your programming when the chips are down. My professor, who is a physiology expert of the kind we can’t even fathom (this is someone who can go through every chemical reaction in the human body from memory, down to the molecule and element), states that specifically under stress, when being shot at, when fight or flight ensues, you WILL resort to your training if you practice, and he can see no reason why you would not. I trust his advice, and it also matches many other people’s reactions when their life was in danger and they resorted to their training without even thinking about it. The key is though, you have to repeat the procedures enough to make them programmed into your pathways. This is called practice. It has happened to me as a bouncer I have used my martial arts training many times, and I have been shot at and returned fire, and every time I acted as I trained. That is why I find it imperative to train in realistic techniques and I am careful to train for defense at the range: you will perform just like you practice. The key here is that the Officers that pluspinc are referring DID NOT PRACTICE enough so they could not resort to their training, because it was merely stored in their memory as something they learned, but it was not practiced and programmed into their reactions.
I suppose that for some people, panic ensues easily and adrenaline overrides their ability to act. They panic. SOME people might experience this sometimes, but to say that all people will forget all their training and practice when TSHTF is simply an overgeneralization. Every person is different. And, the more you practice and the more straightforward and simple your training, the less likley you will fail in the time of need.
 
ARGHH! This is like the blind guys molesting
the elephant. You each have a piece.

Futo - the reason that motor learning is a better term than muscle memory is that some folks interpret muscle memory as some memory
change in the muscle itself. That isn't the mechanism.

JD - your prof is speaking a bit metaphorically, learning isn't really lowering resistance in an electrically sense. The neural systems aren't purely electrical but an electrical / chemical system. What happens at the synaptic level is complicated but entails changes in numbers of synapses, changes in receptor densities, alteration of cell metabolism by transmitters messing with cGMP,
calcium channels and other stuff. It is not the junctions get greased or just lower electrical resistance like if you had a larger diameter cable.

As far as resorting to your training, if the prof in question isn't a motor system guy or knowledgeable of memory issues then I can understand why he misses the point of not resorting to your training. Even when you do modify synapses and train so you have these channels well connected and the like, the action as to be initiated. This is where the panic comes in.

The relationship is well known. As stress increase, you get better and better till you reach a point where performance decreases
and then continues to decrease.

If you train and train and train, you increase the probability that you won't lose the response initiation but enough panic and stress and you might. Each stress situation and person are unique - so that one panics and another does resort successfully to his training.

While I hate credential bragging, I did do my post-doc in a department with a Nobel prize winner and my personal mentor was dude who won the visual science equivalent of the Nobel prize. While Darrell states that he wrote so many articles and has expertise in firearms,
I've published in Nature and Science, the best scientific journals and some of the best psychological journals in the relevant areas.

There are multiple levels of processing in a complicated response like seeing a threat,
evaluating it and responding with a smooth motor sequence. It can go wrong even with lots of training.

Look, you see Olympians, who are hypertrained and practiced far beyond the
average gun carrier in their motor skill,
blow it and fall off the bar, do a dive and land on the board with their head, crap out on a ski jump. Remember that decathalon champ who one day couldn't qualify for the Olympics because in explicably his pole vault techinque went to hell.

He had the "motor memory - boo hiss" but he lost it that day. His synapses had done the modifications due to repeated training. He just stressed out.

So, and this will be on the test, practice lays down automatic motor programs. More practice makes them better. Increase stress and you may not activate the program.

Tomorrow's class will be ...
 
plusp: Aren't the one's that "miss" in a gunfight the same one's that barely pass their Q course? The one's that fire it at "least twice a year" because they have to? The same one's that can't get their gun out of the new-fangled security rig because they, uh, didn't practice?
Thankfully, I never was involved in a shooting. I did "present" my gun fom its level-3 holster more times than I can count. Under stress, as in a hot felony stop or in-progress call; or not, as in a building search or the holding cell lockbox. Never did I have the slightest hesitation, because I practiced "perfect practice".
As you've observed, fit of the handgun is crucial to your ability to use it well. I feel that a lot of problems are due to a "one gun for all" policy. That works well for a few, mediocre for most, and poorly for others. The agency that I was with had a policy with wide lattitude. Anything DA, in major caliber, of quality "name brand". At the time, Glocks were looked on with a bit of disdain. Now, they've since gone to plastic fantastic themselves to conserve on the almighty training dollar. Sad to see.
Any incidents you're aware of involving 90% or higher shooters/LEO instructors doing "poorly" when it hit the oscillating device?
 
Sounds like we on the same wavelength, Glenn. I don't understand you to be saying anything I didn't attempt to convey in so many words.

Ps- I was only alluding to synapses and action potentials with regard to electricity flow/resistance to put it into simple laymen's terms and use an understandable metaphor.
In case you missed the part about my degree being in Biochemistry: I am all too familiar with the chemistry of nerve impulses and pathways. In fact, due to the nature of our backgrounds, I am probably far more knowlegable on the chemical nitty gritty than yourself, but I don't feel the need to impress people here with fancy lingo and terminology when a simple metaphor will do. ;)









[This message has been edited by jdthaddeus (edited January 30, 2000).]
 
This debate is as old as the .357 vs. 9mm. It can oly be backed with MEDICAL evidence, if that is the answer that you are looking for, and you'll find just as much "FOR" as "AGAINST" in all areas of the medical comunity. Gymnastics coaches will tell you that it's true, and plenty of anecdotal evidence would support that. In the end, all that really matters is what will give YOU, the believer, an edge. Practice dosen't make perfect, PERFECT practice makes perfect. Wrong is still wrong, even if everyone agrees, and right is still right, even if no one agrees!

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Remember, no matter where you go, there you are!
 
Wow,

Lots of discussion over nuthin'. Glenn is bang on. I know of no neurologists who seriously consider muscle memory. Muscles contract, they taste good when marinated. Thats it.

The ingrained pathways you are speaking of are in the brainstem and cerebellum.

Olazul
 
Some great stuff. As for "you react as you train" with a 92% miss rate does that say something about training?
Yes, repetative motion can be imbedded in long term memory, but the entire point that is MISSED is what happens when hit with memory blocking chemicals of mind and body that doesn't allow that information to be processed.
We have to stop denying the problem and come up with excuses. Also when someone relates a fearful incident and claims pristine response, I'd love to have a video of it. It is like the first time we had sex. If you told me the story and someone came up with the video I think we'd have some surprises for all of us. False Memory Syndrome and other factors distort BADLY our recall of such events IF we can recall them at all.
So the 92% miss rate sure calls into question " your resort to your training." We can't have it BOTH ways.
If anyone wants to get scientific information on this let me know.
It involves chunking, memory blocking chemicals triggered by FRIGHT, chainging of information etc.
Repetative motion memory is indeed valid, but stops when we are frightend. That is the key everyone misses. And like so many have clearly stated MMR does NOT exist and is a bogus term. Makes one wonder how many others are floating around out there.


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Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
 
JD - you the dude who started the credential wars with your professor. :)

Anyway, I felt your metaphor was misleading as it specificied an automatic process that guaranteed you would always resort to your training.

Quote:

My professor, who is a physiology
expert of the kind we can’t even fathom (this is someone who can go through every chemical reaction
in the human body from memory, down to the molecule and element), states that specifically under
stress, when being shot at, when fight or flight ensues, you WILL resort to your training if you
practice, and he can see no reason why you would not.

***

I felt this was incorrect and still do. It implies a conditioned reflex model of response which isn't modern theory on learning.

There are hardware and software, so to speak,
levels going on here. The lowering resistance metaphor speaks to training as a no fail
hardware solution that is guaranteed by training. That is all I'm saying.

Nice debate and I'm sure everyone is now switching to is 45 ACP better than 9mm.

Enjoyed it - Glenn :)
 
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