Murder by Cops, again!

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Thomas:

There are two things that will reverse this tide ... one is lawsuits, and the other is dead and injured LEO's. Damn shame.
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Jeff,
Many of us claim that we are ready and willing to defend our home against an attack. Those that are, aren't going to be doing it with pistol or shotgun. So, say we hear a commotion, and are convinced that a "home invasion" is going down (as none of us, at this point and time, would deliberately fire upon LEOs). We meet the perceived threat, and manage to get off a mag or two before being killed or neutralized. 30 rounds of 5.56, 7.62 or .308 is going to make a awful mess of whoever is forcing their way through our front door. So now we have a terrible situation - dead home owner, and dead and wounded LEOs.

Do you really think that the current administration would put the blame on police tactics? Of course not! We would hear cries of "yes, the police made mistakes, BUT if only the home owner wasn't armed!" "No Civilian needs military style weapons!" Then comes the registration and confiscation, because "no police officer should have to worry about being shot as he breaks down the door to the wrong home".

To those who think home invasions are rare, Philly has had FIVE in the last TWO WEEKS, with homeowners terrorized, beaten, and stabbed. The invaders where all dressed in black, just like SWAT teams.

Another down side to all this is, that during a REAL HOME INVASION, we may hesitate, because "maybe they're LEOs" will be in the back of our mind.
 
I have always found it sad how so many people believe 100 % what they read in the papers or see in the news.

Ive often asked myself how can people be so ignorant, then one day the answer came to me. You believe what you read and hear cause you want to believe. You really want to believe this stuff as it is reported in the papers even if you know that a Police Dept. will not release exonerateing evidence often for month's after the incident.

I tell these young kids coming on the job they are nuts for wanting to go out there and fight crime, most of all that drug stuff. Its common knowledge in Police circles that the more Police stuff you do the more your chances of getting killed, hurt, sued, jailed, or badmouthed on a internet forumn by a bunch of cop wannabe's.

I mean look at this here. You read some story in the papers and your ready to hang the cops without a trial. Some of you are even standing in front of your mirror's armed and naked and fantasizing about "mowing down cops with your armor defeating ammo". Anybody here, besides me, ever been in a real gunfight ? I bet if you had you wouldnt speak so moronically about shooting people.

Who knows what happens in these incidents. Do you think they are all the same ? Of all the incidents ive ever been in Ive never once heard a citizen admit that we identified ourselves , even if we had bullhorns screaming "POLICE". You see admiting that might mean a smaller settlement, but go ahead and believe what you read.

I guess that there will always be young cops who think that what they are doing is important ; Who think that these Boss's and Politicians will back them up if they make a mistake ; Its usually guys like that that fall the hardest.

Been there, done that , been overlooked for promotion so some do nothing Bimbo can complete the Rainbow , been shot at , been hurt , been sued , been railroaded , and always been an honest hardworking cop.

I got news for all of you. We get the same paycheck even if all we do is write one ticket, answer our calls, and drive around for 8 looking at girls. Screw you, deal with your own problems.

Knowing how to shoot and never missing an episode of "Cops" doesnt make you a Police expert , or , "sorta a cop". You dont know anything about our job I dont care how many Cow Town "ride alongs" youv been on. Funny tho, many of you have little else you want to speak of. Why is that ?

You'll never catch me kicking a door down again. I get paid the same for doing nothing.........WG6
 
I'm just kinda curious what that "new evidence" was that allowed Bini to walk away, and if that evidence was worth $400K to keep the family quiet?

My take on the drug thing: In my former neighborhood of Citrus Heights, CA, I had one attempted break-in of my house by a couple of druggies late one night, who tried coming in through the living room window, yelling for smoebody who I didn't know. "Tried", because the dog was barking her head off, and I had grabbed the 870 with Maglight and yelled "Leave, now!". It turned out later that the landlord forgot to tell me about the prior occupants of the house, and what their affiliations were. I thought about this long and hard later, once the adrenaline wore off, and wondered if the simple fact that the neighborhood supported such activity, I was gonna be at risk for either another break-in attempt, or a wrongly-executed no-knock. We were so ready to move elsewhere, to Roseville or even Auburn. At the time, that Sheriff's helicopter was overhead spotlighting almost every night, the dark-windowed Suburbans were constantly prowling the neighborhood, and if you didn't hear a siren each night, you thought something was bad wrong. Luckily, my answer came in the form of orders to my new assignment in Florida as McCLellan AFB started closing down. Now, over on Sayonara Blvd in Citrus Heights, it's even worse, they actually gated the street leading from there to other residential neighborhoods! Egad!
 
Wheelgunner6, you are certainly right that we don't know all the facts in this situation. And, if this was the first time we'd ever heard of such a case, or if this only came up every few years, then you would be right to berate us.

And, your point about civilians vs. LEO's in firefights is well taken ... as a friend of mine says 'If law enforcement comes through your door, you only think you have a gun.' An innocent civilian's chances for life aren't very good, are they?

But, do a search on TFL. Whether it's a dead 11-year-old kid or a grandfather, I think we are justified in expressing our disgust with your system ... and, I call it 'your' system because you are evidently defending this mess.

You know, if LEO's such as yourself do conclude that busting doors in is a bad idea ... well, then I'm glad you're getting the message, since it seems most of this foolishness is to fight your bankrupt War on Some Drugs.

Positions like yours really tick me off - do you also think we're 'ignorant' because we don't want guys like you doing 90mph down our residential streets to catch a guy that blew a stop sign? LEO's like you may have been brave and hard-working, and we were lucky to have your service. But, if you can't see the absurdity of no-knocks, well then we should all be thankful you're backing off the job.

Good LEO's are not only courageous, honest and hard-working ... they also use good judgement.

Regards from AZ

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited October 07, 2000).]
 
Do no knocks get abused? Certainly. Does that mean their not to be used? Hardly. Our last one (Jan) involved a guy that always went out with homemade explosives taped to his body, along with so many guns he clanked when he walked. Maybe it would have been better to take him down in a daycare or mall wouldn't it? Heaven forbid taking him out of the shower like we did. After all, some folks don't like no knocks! Do us all a favor, don't tell us our job, and we won't file you under "meddlesome twit" Got a problem with police actions in your area? get together with a few other folks and take care of the problem legally. Other folks don't consider it a problem? Then I suggest you review your motives and mental state. this "defend the Alamo" scenario pops up way too much on these sites for me to feel comfortable about some folks stability. It just isn't healthy to spend your days secretly hoping for a shootout in the front hallway.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wheelgunner6:
Some of you are even standing in front of your mirror's armed and naked and fantasizing about "mowing down cops with your armor defeating ammo". Anybody here, besides me, ever been in a real gunfight ? I bet if you had you wouldnt speak so moronically about shooting people. [/quote]

First thing, nobody here is fantasizing about "mowing down cops". We appreciate the work done by true Law Enforcement Officers, and are all well aware that if anyone of us where to ACCIDENTALLY fire upon an LEO, we would very likely be dead!

I understand your point of view, now try to look at it through the eyes of a Citizen. Say I'm asleep upstairs with my wife. Around 5AM I am awakened out of a sound sleep by a lot of commotion, and my Rottweilers going ballistic. I can hear by the tone of their roar, that they are defending against what they consider to be a real threat. I hear screaming, yelling, and then gun fire, as my puppies yelp, and are then silenced. Now I hear footsteps running up the stairs and toward my bedroom. I have a matter of seconds to decide what to do. I do not have time to look out the window looking for police cars. I was asleep, so I don't know if anyone yelled "police" (oh, and criminals know how to yell "police" too). The threat quickly approaching my wife and I has already fired upon members of my family (my dogs). What do I do? If I open fire, and it's police, I am dead, or at the very least, on trail for murder. If I don't open fire, and it's goblins, then I and my family may very likely be tortured, raped and/or murdered. It's a lose/lose situation. So, what am I suppose to do. Tell me, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?!!! How dare any law enforcement policy, ever require a Free Citizen to have to make such a decision!!! All over a few bags of dope!!! HOW DARE THEY!!!!!

I'm amazed that every time someone argues against unconstitutional "no knocks", they're branded a "cop hater". I, and most others on these boards, would come to the aid of, and even put our own lives on the line in defense of, any true "officer of the law". It's the shaved head, wrap around sun glasses, white supremest , Nazi wannabe, us verses them, elitist, that we have no time for.
 
Wheelgunner, I share your frustration. There are times that I to become impatient with people on the Internet failing to comprehend the challenging tight rope that police officers are faced with to serve their community. And I will be the first to admit that there have been times that I have witnessed a few cases of that here on TFL. But not many. For the most part the members here understand those and appreicate the job that officers do and the need for them as a part of society. That is not necessarily true of other firearm discussion boards. The difference is the manner in which we, police officers are excepted and treated here as individuals. We, police officers, are not judged by the members here based on what some other officer(s) may have done on the other side of the country. Our goal here is the promtotion of repsonsible firearms ownership and the preservation of the right to own them. Our shared focus is on the RKBA regardless if we wear a blue uniform or a gray pin stripe suit when we leave for work.
Yes, we (again police officers) receive the same pay whether we are proactive in our job or simply sit back, answer calls for service and write a couple of tickets a month. There are no bonuses for the number of arrest made, the lives we may save or the number of times that we place ourselves in harms way doing our duty. But we both know that no good officer is doing the job for the money. Try 396 bucks a month. That is what I was being paid when I started a career as a police officer. It is also the pay I was receiving the first time I was in a gunfight. The good officers do their job for the love of the job. Part of that love of the job is understand the needs and....at times the concerns of the community. Granted the full details of the case above are not known. However it is not difficult to understand, based on what is known, why people (members) would express their displeasure with the situtation.
The key to appreciate that they are not accusing any of their fellow members or even good cops as a whole. But rather are concerned about the state of affairs...as well they should be. There are out there (to put it in simple cop lingo) scumbags that would not urinate on you if you were on fire. But these people here are not amonog them. The people here are the ones that would come to your aid if needed.
Don't take the remarks personally, try to understand the concerns of those in the community (in this case fellow TFL members) and appreciate the common ground we do all share for which the site was designed.

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Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
 
Gusgus; If that scenario happens, people will die. You, your family, probably some cop(s). The problem is, the guys who come through the door are not the ones that make policy or give the orders.
I never like working under supervision. Some bosses think the street is some kind of chess game where they move the pieces. Brandy and cigars at the club. Well, guess who the pieces are. Those bosses are not on this forum so other than venting, your fight is with them.
Guliani just appointed a new P.C. in NYC. Anyone who knows how the city works knows he`s just a puppet.
The big time savior of L.A. (don`t recall the name) turns out to be about as bad as the cops on trial there. I`m sure there are other examples that can be cited. My point is it`s the line cop who has to deal with their policies.
Some of you say quit if you don`t like it. Then you`ll have a police dep`t full of people you fear the most. It`s coming anyway. The police come from the society which spawns them. L.A. is recruiting in Ohio? The NYPD had to push the test back because of lack of applicants.

Gunslinger; I`ll agree with you to a point but when a topic reads "Cops Commit Murder, Again!" I have a feeling we`re not all sitting around the same cracker barrel. If a LEO posted "Only Cops Should Have Guns!" I know what the response would be.
 
Dinosaur,
The true tragedy, is that such scenarios can, and do happen. My gripe is not with the majority of hard working, LEOs who put their life on the line everyday, to better society. My gripe is with those who defend these unconstitutional polices. When someone defends "no knocks" in light of the death of innocent Citizens, they are essentially saying that "a few dead innocents is the price society must pay", in order to make their job easier. Well, I for one, am not willing to pay that price, nor should any true Law Enforcement Officer. Where did this elitist cancer come from, where it is considered acceptable for a few innocent Citizens to die, in order to make life easier, for those hired to "protect and to serve"?
 
Wheelgunner: Well spoken, The image and pre-concieved notion of what police officers are about and what they do on a daily basis still remaind a mystery to most of the general public.

If i "fit" into someones notion of how & why i should do my job i'm "ok" in thier eyes, but step over that imaginary line they have drawn in thier minds and i turn into the proverbial "Jack Booted Thug" and want thier guns or kick thier doors down wild eyed and slobbering.

My actions are guided by law, set forth by legislators the GENERAL PUBLIC put into public office. No Knock warrants are sometimes needed. In the jurisdiction i work in i have never seen or heard of one used or even issued. But if the need arose for that type of entry, i would not hesitate to apply for one and use every resourse available to execute said warrant.

Does this make me a bad guy? Think what you will, i do my job to the best of my ability, working within the laws guidelines; i make no apologies for it.
 
Wheelgunner6, I find it ironic that you complain that the general population is too willing to believe media reports (which is all too true; the mainstream news media are more liken to entertainers than investigators), but LEOs are all too willing to believe the BS implicit in warrants and subpoenae. 90% of the vitriol thrown your way comes from these situations in which incompetence or dishonesty has led to a "guns first" raid on some innocent bystander. The LEO community *must* demand higher standards for these sorts of high-adrenaline encounters, otherwise they (the bogus warrants and subpoenae) will become a wedge to further the distance between the mainstream population and their LEOs.

enfieldj's reply underscore's the problem; half of the LEO community says "we're only as good as you require us to be," and the other half says 'Do us all a favor, don't tell us our job, and we won't file you under "meddlesome twit"'. Not hard to understand why there's a rift growing.

Generally, its not the 99% of the time LEOs spend that folks here have a problem with. Its that 1% where things go horribly wrong. Its no different than with EMS, doctors, airline pilots, truck drivers, or a whole spectrum of occupations. When things go wrong, the whole group gets painted with a broad brush. Society has no hesitation about critiquing those other occupations, so LEOs cannot expect any holiday either.


[This message has been edited by Ivanhoe (edited October 07, 2000).]
 
I wonder how many of these goofups happen at the homes of LEO???

You know, messed up the address, and went to the wrong house, an LEO's house!

How many times has this happened to LEO?

Any LEO here know anyone who this has happened to?

[This message has been edited by Donny (edited October 07, 2000).]
 
One of the things in this discussion being focused on is no knock raids. Everything I have read about this in the media does not say it was a no knock, so I am not sure where people are coming up with no knock.

What I find interesting about this discussion is how most people here immediately believe what is reported in the media when LEOs screw up. Lets jump to conclusions and scream for these LEOs to be locked up, better yet lets just skip a trial and shoot them.

Newsflash people: the media hates LEOs and will ALWAYS put a negative slant on reporting regarding LEOs. Sounds familiar doesn't it? Kind of like the slanted reporting about the RKBA. The same people that get pissed off about this will immediately believe the media's negative reporting about LEOs. Another newsflash: the wall that is being built between LEOs and private citizens is being built by both sides.

Now before anybody starts flaming me about how I can defend this particular screwup, I am not defending it. I am not commenting on it at all. I am pointing out what I view as some hpocritical behavior.
 
Wow, kinda reminds me of that survey taken of Marines and what percentage of them would be willing to fire on fellow Americans, if ordered to do so. If I remember right, the demographics showed it was the younger folks that were willing to do so, while the older NCO's ended up sending nastygrams to the originator of the survey. I can see a similarity in the attitudes of law enforcement, to a point. It's as if the greater accountability to the public has disappeared. That "meddlesome twit" remark kinda clinched it, almost as if the person complaining was not deserving of a say, or was subhuman? Heck, I even see a similarity in my squadron, where the young lions are more than willing to go wear the blue helmet, while us crusty old crew dawgs would rather risk administrative action by the Air Force. Sad statement of the times, I called my uncle earlier today, he's the chief of police in a Wisconsin town of about 10K, and he was less than pleased about the current events in both Colorado and Tennessee. Granted, he doesn't have the drug or gang problems, but it was nice to know there is still some semblance of sanity left out there...
 
I'm reminded of the WWII vets at our local VFW. Once they truly were heroes. Now they simply badmouth "kids these days".

I tried to explain the good kids never make the headlines. These old men, in their "wisdom", said I didn't know what I was talking about - all kids are bad.

I told them not to judge all kids by their own and left. Ain't been back.
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Obviously there is a time and place appropriate for no-knock raids.
Unfortunately, as many LEOs state privately, tactics can be adversely affected by politics, "career enhancement" attempts, desires for "funding" and every sort of bad judgement.

Whether it's the "bad kids" in gangs, the "perfumed princes" in the military, or the "zero tolerance" idiots running our schools, it is the few who dishonor the many.

Let's disrespect only the few who have earned it.

LEOs, thanks for your patience. We share many of the same frustrations. However, not being a LEO neither makes me a "wanna be" nor incapable of making valid observations.

When the Concorde crashed we could tell something went wrong without being aeronautical engineers. When kids and unarmed civilians are killed in their homes, something is wrong - simple as that.

By the same token, non-LEOs should narrow their questions (rather than inquisitions) to specific individuals and circumstances.

We ALL must understand that we are making judgements based solely upon the available information at the time; so reserve final decisions until more facts are known.

And, most of all, remember that we are gun owners and believers in Liberty and our Republic as originally founded - not as it has become bastardized.

If the Second Amendment is to be restored,
If our nation is to return to Constitutional Law,
Then we must unite and focus on our goals.

Stay civil. Discuss rather than argue.
Let nothing divide us or deter us from our strategic goals.

This thread is closed for length (some 116K+). Those who can stay civil, feel free to start Part 2.



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Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!
 
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