Not at all illegal.
Ok, thanks for clarifying that.ATF considers the terms sale, transfer & disposition as having essentially the same meaning
Jim
Not at all illegal.
Ok, thanks for clarifying that.ATF considers the terms sale, transfer & disposition as having essentially the same meaning
But every single firearm purchase at our store is already reported to the FBI and the ATF in some manner or other. Each background check we run tells the FBI that the customer bought at least one firearm, and they know which type of firearm each one is. And when the ATF does compliance inspections they go over each 4473 that every customer has ever filled out, as well as our bound book that shows where each gun came from and who it went to. And then -- on top of all that -- every single handgun purchase is reported to the buyer's local law enforcement per state law.Painterman121212 said:I personally do not see how it's possible that somebody would come into one of your locations, by three handguns, and never have it cross your mind that you should at least inform him, if not warn him, that the purchase is going to be reported to the ATF???
I can only interpret your point of view as a complete ignorance of how this whole thing works.Painterman121212 said:I can only interpret that as a total lack and disregard of concern for your customers But that's just me...
I think it's ignorant because you've displayed a remarkable amount of ignorance in this post. Somehow you're under the impression that if the customer only knew about the multiple handgun form and didn't buy multiple handguns, they could keep their gun ownership information private from the government. But that's simply not true.Painter121212 said:Well, of course you will view it as ignorant, because you're the one who thinks it's OK to do it!!! LOL
We have a lot of customers who buy more than one handgun within the required period. We fill out a lot of multiple pistol forms. Those people are still in the minority, but it happens a lot.Painterman121212 said:I think you have to ask yourself this, first of all, how many people buy multiple handguns compared to the person who buys one? I don't have an answer, maybe you do. But an educated guess would be the VAST majority buy one.
You're right that those other things always happen for every purchase, but most customers don't know already about them. Like I said, most of my time spent discussing this subject with customers involves me telling them that's there's no state or national firearms registry.Painterman121212 said:The thing is, the other items that you are using as an example is an absolute given. People know that the background check is being done and so it goes "without saying" that this background check will involve certain things, and those things are going to be reported to certain agencies.
It's not that I don't think it's worth mentioning, it's that I think it's a little ridiculous to be upset if the salesman doesn't mention it. When selling a handgun it's hard enough explaining when the state requires a waiting period and when they don't, and then explaining the difference between a federal delay and a state waiting period. And then explaining how to avoid the waiting period with a WA state CPL. And then explaining that no, there's no state handgun registry but the state keeps a record of almost every handgun transfer inside the state. And then explaining the federal requirements of the FBI background check. And then explaining the federal requirements for residency and how to prove it.Painterman121212 said:You do not think that's worth mentioning?
You're entirely missing my point. My point is that all that other stuff is necessary information to convey in order to complete the transaction. Info about the multiple handgun form is not. I focus on the former.Painterman121212 said:See, now you really throw me for a loop! So you're saying you're willing to discuss all of that other stuff that is "normal", but not willing to throw in the ONE thing that is "abnormal" to the every day purchase?
As [one of] the resident pedantPainterman121212 said:And conversely, I believe you're displaying an incredible ignorance to what's involved with a customers mindset. All you are doing is labeling me ignorant because I lack the empathy of what's involved in your line of work and what your "labor pains" are.
Ergo, since you did not know about the multiple gun report requirement even though it has been discussed at length on probably every "gun" forum in the U.S. (especially around the time the Obama administration extended it to include long guns in certain "border" states), you were "unaware, uninformed," and thus -- by definition -- ignorant. That's not a pejorative, it's a simple statement of fact.Merriam-Webster said:a : destitute of knowledge or education <an ignorant society>; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified <parents ignorant of modern mathematics>
b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence <ignorant errors>
2: unaware, uninformed
I suppose that's possible. But it's not likely.Painterman121212 said:And conversely, I believe you're displaying an incredible ignorance to what's involved with a customers mindset.
You are ignorant about the processes involved to buy a firearm. You're making that plain. And like Aguila Blanca pointed out, that's not a pejorative, it's simply a fact.Painterman121212 said:All you are doing is labeling me ignorant because I lack the empathy of what's involved in your line of work and what your "labor pains" are.
I haven't once complained about my job. I happen to love my job. And this comment again shows that you're completely missing my point.Painter121212 said:You're not necessarily making your point, more so than simply complaining how difficult your job is..
You missed my point several times, and I tried to help you understand each time what you were missing. Would you like me to go over each of those times again?Painter121212 said:I was not missing the point whatsoever
Again, you miss my point entirely. I don't necessarily discuss those things with the customer, not unless they ask. I generally only discuss the things that are directly related to the transaction. But if the customer presents a certain level of curiousity, I'm happy to mention all sorts of unnecessary information, including informing the customer about the multiple handgun form.Painterman121212 said:He has already admitted that he goes thru a very redundant speech and tries to inform his customers of things that we all know, like databases and such. Why does he do that?
OK. Tell me why informing the customer about the multiple handgun form is more important than making sure my employees don't release a firearm without a background check, or allow a customer to use an address on the 4473 that's different than his current residence, or allow the customer to commit a felony straw purchase, or give the customer the wrong delay pick-up date and have him waste a trip into our store, or allow the customer to get overcharged because we didn't inform him of all the charges ahead of time.Painter121212 said:But I'm on aware of something that is probably much less known, yet far more important.