Multiple Handgun Purchase

[laytonj1]

Not at all illegal.

ATF considers the terms sale, transfer & disposition as having essentially the same meaning

Ok, thanks for clarifying that.

Jim

 

[Painterman121212]

"There is all sorts of behind-the-scenes paperwork required to run an FFL. The only paperwork that involves the customer directly are 4473s, Form 4s, and any state transfer paperwork that might be required. I generally don't mention multiple pistol forms to customers, or Form 2s, or the various bound books, or the status of our FFL and SOT."

(Couldn't find the clipboard.... every other site just has a button at the bottom that says quote. I'll have to learn the site a little better!

I think I would have to disagree with that. Those other "behind the scenes" forms are of little interest to the purchaser. And certainly don't have a direct impact with them.

I would have to say it all comes down to what kind of a relationship you want with your customers? As well as whether or not you view the business you are in as being more than just a retail outlet selling things.

Gun stores are normally, not counting big box stores, a GREAT source and wealth of information concerning things pertaining to the purchase of guns.

I personally do not see how it's possible that somebody would come into one of your locations, by three handguns, and never have it cross your mind that you should at least inform him, if not warn him, that the purchase is going to be reported to the ATF???

I can only interpret that as a total lack and disregard of concern for your customers But that's just me...

 

[Painterman121212]

"Doesn't matter what YOU THINK OR FEEL. Take your complaints to the BATFE, noting my emphasis. Their rules, their game"

Not really sure how to take your post, because at first glance it rubbed me the wrong way. But knowing that words have a tendency to do that sometimes by mistake, i'll take it in the best light

If you're saying you agree with me, and I should call them to voice my opinion as well as others should, then your point of course is duly noted, but obviously a given.

If you're saying this isnt the right place to vent about such things, than I would totally disagree. This is the precise place to vent about such things, as that is why forums exist.

My definition of a forum would be "a CENTRAL gathering of like-minded individuals, to discuss the items that are of like minded." The meaning of the word discuss, is open ended. But can involve anything including rants..

Not to mention my post had nothing to do with that anyway, was a simple side note, and I did say that was not the purpose of the post. Meaning if that had been the only issue, I would have never bothered to start a thread about that

 

[Painterman121212]

And yes to the others, you are correct. I am the typical guy who has lurked on the outside because this forum is full of such an endless wealth of information, that seldom does one need to join and make a post to get the question answered or to learn something!!!

Plus I am a member of so many other gun forums I figured I didn't need another one! But they are all specific forums, like CZ or AR15, or....sure you get my point.

After reading and being involved and learning on this site, it seemed to present something to me that I really liked as I grow older, to be full of more gentle type characters.

The other sites are getting infiltrated and half wits and wannabe macho man who grow keyboard muscles and just can't wait to attack somebody, for something, somewhere!

It just seems that every time somebody makes a post on those other sites, there is a group of people lurking in the shadows ready to come out of the woodwork and call you all sorts of nasty names!!! I simply grow tired of it.

None of those individuals would dare talk to anybody like that in real life and they only do it because they don't have to face the consequences of their mouth.

I'm not saying it's not here, but let's just say I haven't seen it yet

 

[Theohazard]

I personally do not see how it's possible that somebody would come into one of your locations, by three handguns, and never have it cross your mind that you should at least inform him, if not warn him, that the purchase is going to be reported to the ATF???

But every single firearm purchase at our store is already reported to the FBI and the ATF in some manner or other. Each background check we run tells the FBI that the customer bought at least one firearm, and they know which type of firearm each one is. And when the ATF does compliance inspections they go over each 4473 that every customer has ever filled out, as well as our bound book that shows where each gun came from and who it went to. And then -- on top of all that -- every single handgun purchase is reported to the buyer's local law enforcement per state law.

When I sell a long gun, an "other", or a single handgun, should I explain that the FBI now knows you bought one handgun, one or more long guns, or one or more "others"? Should I explain that it's likely that the FBI keeps a record of that information? Should I tell the customer when our last ATF compliance inspection was, when we think our next one will be, and that all the details of every gun they've purchased from us will be poured over by the ATF at that point?

Here's the thing: Most of my customers assume every gun they buy is registered already. Most assume the make, model, and serial number is registered with the FBI during the background check. Most assume that the state keeps a detailed registration of all firearms, or at least all handguns. I spend a lot of time dispelling these myths. And on the occasions where I've mentioned the multiple handgun form, I've never once had a single customer given it a moment's thought.

I can only interpret that as a total lack and disregard of concern for your customers But that's just me...

I can only interpret your point of view as a complete ignorance of how this whole thing works.

 

[Painterman121212]

Well, of course you will view it as ignorant, because you're the one who thinks it's OK to do it!!! LOL

 

[Theohazard]

Well, of course you will view it as ignorant, because you're the one who thinks it's OK to do it!!! LOL

I think it's ignorant because you've displayed a remarkable amount of ignorance in this post. Somehow you're under the impression that if the customer only knew about the multiple handgun form and didn't buy multiple handguns, they could keep their gun ownership information private from the government. But that's simply not true.

You're also under the ridiculous assumption that since a few gun salesmen you talked to don't know about back-office FFL paperwork, that must mean the FFL isn't doing that paperwork. That's absurd.

I'll ask you this question again: Since you seem so adamant that a gun salesman should be required to inform each customer of every breach of privacy by the government, should I also explain the details of all the information given to the FBI during the background check for each firearm sale? Should I also inform each customer of all the FFL record-keeping requirements for the 4473 filled out by each customer for each firearm sale? Should I also explain how the bound book contains the record of each firearm every customer has purchased? Should I explain how the ATF goes over all these records during a compliance inspection?

I don't withhold any of this information if a customer asks, but I think it would be ridiculous to require each salesman to inform each customer of all this information during each firearm purchase.

 

[Painterman121212]

I think you have to ask yourself this, first of all, how many people buy multiple handguns compared to the person who buys one? I don't have an answer, maybe you do. But an educated guess would be the VAST majority buy one.

So how many times would it have to be mentioned? You had to mention it to absolutely everybody, about subject matter that's a common body of knowledge and then MAYBE I would agree with you.

I say maybe because I am a contractor that has a specific skill. Common to me is not common to my customers. I find myself repeating the same old knowledge constantly every day to the same ole people, and I am OK with that, because that's my job.

At no time would I take the position, that I don't have to share this info with my customer, things that I know to be true, if they are unaware of it. I do not view that as being a professional.

The thing is, the other items that you are using as an example is an absolute given. People know that the background check is being done and so it goes "without saying" that this background check will involve certain things, and those things are going to be reported to certain agencies.

Since many people don't walk in and buy three handguns, to me it would be a very minimal effort, to mention that this purchase is going to have something "different" involved that all the other purchases do not have.

It will require a different form, that will be under more scrutiny and, there's an extra step involved in this that is NOT involved in every day normal purchases.

You do not think that's worth mentioning?

 

[Theohazard]

I think you have to ask yourself this, first of all, how many people buy multiple handguns compared to the person who buys one? I don't have an answer, maybe you do. But an educated guess would be the VAST majority buy one.

We have a lot of customers who buy more than one handgun within the required period. We fill out a lot of multiple pistol forms. Those people are still in the minority, but it happens a lot.

The thing is, the other items that you are using as an example is an absolute given. People know that the background check is being done and so it goes "without saying" that this background check will involve certain things, and those things are going to be reported to certain agencies.

You're right that those other things always happen for every purchase, but most customers don't know already about them. Like I said, most of my time spent discussing this subject with customers involves me telling them that's there's no state or national firearms registry.

You do not think that's worth mentioning?

It's not that I don't think it's worth mentioning, it's that I think it's a little ridiculous to be upset if the salesman doesn't mention it. When selling a handgun it's hard enough explaining when the state requires a waiting period and when they don't, and then explaining the difference between a federal delay and a state waiting period. And then explaining how to avoid the waiting period with a WA state CPL. And then explaining that no, there's no state handgun registry but the state keeps a record of almost every handgun transfer inside the state. And then explaining the federal requirements of the FBI background check. And then explaining the federal requirements for residency and how to prove it.

My point is that with all that's involved with selling firearms and following state and federal laws in the process, it's a subject that rarely comes up or needs to come up.

Here's the thing: As a gun shop manager I work really hard to make sure each salesperson follows all state and federal laws and regulations for each firearm transaction, and I also make sure they know how to make sure the customer isn't breaking any laws either. I also try to make sure that each salesperson knows what information they need to give to the customer ahead of time so they're not blindsided by extra charges or they don't come in without the proper ID to buy the firearm.

It takes enough effort to make sure all those things happen properly, so having my employees mention a specific form that doesn't involve the customer and isn't filled out during the transaction is pretty low down on my list of priorities.

 

[Painterman121212]

See, now you really throw me for a loop! So you're saying you're willing to discuss all of that other stuff that is "normal", but not willing to throw in the ONE thing that is "abnormal" to the every day purchase?

Well, I think we can bounce this ball up and down the court all day long, so let's just agree to disagree.

If you don't feel that you need to inform the customer that this purchase is going to be "treated differently" and it will have a "special form" that needs to be submitted, trust me when I tell you, nothing I can say to you from this point forward will change your mind

But based on the research I have already done, I have seen many, and I mean many people say that when they were told that, they separated the purchases by week. Key phrase? "When they were told that"

I think if giving the speech is redundant, maybe you're getting burnt out on the living you chose? I don't know. I just know as a contractor ( no I am not a painter, that's what I do in my spare time) I have to constantly and redundantly explain to my customer things that they do not know but that I definitely feel as a professional needs to be shared with them, so that they will be informed.

To do any less I consider derelict of duty. I wish I could get you to see things different, but alas, I throw in the towel!!!!

 

[Theohazard]

See, now you really throw me for a loop! So you're saying you're willing to discuss all of that other stuff that is "normal", but not willing to throw in the ONE thing that is "abnormal" to the every day purchase?

You're entirely missing my point. My point is that all that other stuff is necessary information to convey in order to complete the transaction. Info about the multiple handgun form is not. I focus on the former.

Again, you're repeatedly showing a complete ignorance of how this whole process works.

 

[Painterman121212]

And conversely, I believe you're displaying an incredible ignorance to what's involved with a customers mindset. All you are doing is labeling me ignorant because I lack the empathy of what's involved in your line of work and what your "labor pains" are.

As a customer who is spending $3500, I'm not particularly interested in your labor pains, as my customers who pay me that money, so that I can spend it with you, are not interested in mine, when it comes time for me to do my job for them!

Everybody has labor pains involved in their job, but your labor pains are not my concern, because I am the customer. As my labor pains are not, and most importantly, should not, be the concern of my customers.

I sit down at a restaurant to enjoy a nice dinner. I don't want to hear the labor pains of the chef as he prepares it for me, or the complaints by the waitress that she has to tell every customer what the specials are for the evening.

You're not necessarily making your point, more so than simply complaining how difficult your job is..

 

[Aguila Blanca]

And conversely, I believe you're displaying an incredible ignorance to what's involved with a customers mindset. All you are doing is labeling me ignorant because I lack the empathy of what's involved in your line of work and what your "labor pains" are.

As [one of] the resident pedant, allow me to mention that the definition of "ignorant" is

a : destitute of knowledge or education <an ignorant society>; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified <parents ignorant of modern mathematics>
b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence <ignorant errors>

2: unaware, uninformed

Ergo, since you did not know about the multiple gun report requirement even though it has been discussed at length on probably every "gun" forum in the U.S. (especially around the time the Obama administration extended it to include long guns in certain "border" states), you were "unaware, uninformed," and thus -- by definition -- ignorant. That's not a pejorative, it's a simple statement of fact.

The issue is that you are of the opinion that it was the responsibility of a sales agent at a gun shop to correct the fact that you, a person who by your own admission has been around gun forums for some time and who probably is a person fairly knowledgeable about firearms, have somehow managed to avoid picking up on the multiple gun requirement. I can understand that you don't like the requirement, but I don't agree that it's the responsibility of the gun seller to make you aware of it.

I have known about it for several years, and I have executed purchases of multiple guns over a period of a couple of weeks so as to not trigger the requirement. But I learned of it through Internet forums, and it was my request to the gun shop to stagger the delivery dates.

I think you are being unfair to the gun store, and attempting to pass on to them your responsibility to inform yourself of the laws affecting your sport.

 

[Evan Thomas]

There's no need for anyone to get personal over this.

Painterman, the fact that you don't like the information people are giving you isn't a reason to jump on them. It's a seller's responsibility to be informed about what the law requires and to see that you and they comply with that, but it's not their job to inform you about every nuance of those laws.

It's our responsibility to be informed about the laws and regulations governing what we do. Expecting others to do this for us is unwise, to say the least.

 

[Painterman121212]

Actually I just used the word ignorant to be facetious, since he seemed to be very fond of the word, as also the phrase " youre repeatedly missing my point" which I disagree with, as I was not missing the point whatsoever, in fact, every single one of my responses with in DIRECT reference to his point, so I think he was trying to say I don't understand his point, which of course is what the whole debate is about!

However, I don't think there's anything wrong with the wording ignorant, I don't even think it's disrespectful. We have come to think of it as so. But I'm ok with it.

But you are as well, again, bringing up the same point in which is kind of tiring me. There are millions of stuff concerning firearms, enough to fill an entire library. I may have been ignorant of THAT fact, but I may be aware of hundreds of other facts that you are not, which doesn't mean that you're ignorant or that you are void of understanding of subject matter, but that has nothing to do with my point whatsoever!!!

I absolutely guarantee you that the average Joe, that walks in and buys a gun doesn't have one hundredth of an idea about laws and Guns as well as we all do that are talking on this forum right now.

He has already admitted that he goes thru a very redundant speech and tries to inform his customers of things that we all know, like databases and such. Why does he do that? Because the customer is unaware of it. So they are unaware of basic things, which I am not. But I'm on aware of something that is probably much less known, yet far more important.

So once again you are saying the same thing, which is perfectly acceptable to explain to the every day customer tons and tons of information that everybody should know but does not, but then shouldn't go the extra step to bring up a piece of information that is not known as well?

Just because you are aware of something doesn't mean it shouldn't be explained. Just because you think you are more well-informed doesn't mean the person at the gun store should assume that just because you think you know something that I don't, it's not an excuse for someone not to inform you of it.

For Pete's ache, we are talking about a few words, to let someone know that if they don't want to be under more scrutiny they should space purchased.

I'm not hearing a really good debate, all I'm really hearing is how much extra work it is and I'm sorry that's not a really good reason.

 

[Painterman121212]

"Painterman, the fact that you don't like the information people are giving you isn't a reason to jump on them."


??? Maybe you're not going back and reading all the post, I'm not jumping on anybody here, I'm in defense mode right now!!!!

I'm simply responding to statements that were made to ME about my initial post. Made PERSONAL to me...

I'm making a general and broad statement and I'm not making them personal to anyone!!

And then I get a response calling me ignorant and blah blah. That my friend has made it now personal, so PLEASE don't tell me I'm the one who's making it personal... I am not and I actually love a good debate and I am in good cheer!

I am hoping no one else makes this personal. I just wish that individuals had the ability to debate the subject matter and not the individual

 

[FrankenMauser]

As Evan said-
It is your responsibility to know the laws and regulations; not the gun shop's responsibility to inform you about every aspect of the law.

 

[Theohazard]

And conversely, I believe you're displaying an incredible ignorance to what's involved with a customers mindset.

I suppose that's possible. But it's not likely.

I've spent 5 years working at two different extremely high-volume gun shops, and I've been a manager for four of those years. Part of my job is to deal with customer complaints, and I've heard all sorts. Some are ridiculous, like customers getting upset because a salesman won't help them commit a straw purchase. Some are completely valid, like customers getting upset because they called us about our transfer fee for online purchases and the salesperson didn't properly explain those fees, and now the customer is getting charged more than they thought.

For the ridiculous complaints, there's not much we can do. But for the valid complaints, we make sure we alter the store's policy and then train our salespeople accordingly. But in the last five years I've never once had anyone even seem remotely annoyed that we didn't mention the multiple handgun form. And I've spent a lot of time on this and other gun forums, and you're the first person I've ever seen get upset about the salesperson not mentioning it.

All you are doing is labeling me ignorant because I lack the empathy of what's involved in your line of work and what your "labor pains" are.

You are ignorant about the processes involved to buy a firearm. You're making that plain. And like Aguila Blanca pointed out, that's not a pejorative, it's simply a fact.

There are a lot of subjects I'm ignorant about. But I try not to form strong opinions on those subjects. I certainly wouldn't accuse someone of a dereliction of duty when I was completely ignorant of what those duties entailed.

You're not necessarily making your point, more so than simply complaining how difficult your job is..

I haven't once complained about my job. I happen to love my job. And this comment again shows that you're completely missing my point.

My point is simply that with all the things that are required to convey to the customer during a firearm transaction, both legal and customer-satisfaction related, a relatively unimportant piece of back-office paperwork that has no direct bearing on the transaction is a very low priority for me.

I was not missing the point whatsoever

You missed my point several times, and I tried to help you understand each time what you were missing. Would you like me to go over each of those times again?

He has already admitted that he goes thru a very redundant speech and tries to inform his customers of things that we all know, like databases and such. Why does he do that?

Again, you miss my point entirely. I don't necessarily discuss those things with the customer, not unless they ask. I generally only discuss the things that are directly related to the transaction. But if the customer presents a certain level of curiousity, I'm happy to mention all sorts of unnecessary information, including informing the customer about the multiple handgun form.

But I'm on aware of something that is probably much less known, yet far more important.

OK. Tell me why informing the customer about the multiple handgun form is more important than making sure my employees don't release a firearm without a background check, or allow a customer to use an address on the 4473 that's different than his current residence, or allow the customer to commit a felony straw purchase, or give the customer the wrong delay pick-up date and have him waste a trip into our store, or allow the customer to get overcharged because we didn't inform him of all the charges ahead of time.

The multiple handgun form is pretty insignificant if you understand all the other requirements of running an FFL. Don't you think we should focus more on following all the relevant state and federal laws and regulations, and also on taking care of things that customers are actually concerned about?

 

[Evan Thomas]

This has reached ultimate circularity. Closed.