Mugging assault
- Thread starter hangglider
- Start date
mehavey, you said
Definitely going to jury trial is hardly the same as
So, for one thing, that's quite a fallback. For another, it's still not necessarily so. Such cases do not automatically go to a jury, or even a grand jury. Some jurisdictions (such as Oklahoma, for recent example) do not require a DA to take a case before the grand jury, if the DA thinks it is not a good case.
Now, in your follow-on post, you say,
Aside from the fact that this is more or less unlikely, depending on where you are (and whether the shoot was obviously good, notwithstanding the decedent's age), there are ways to deal with that potential problem.
My way, and here's a plug for senior member Marty Hayes, was to join the Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network. In the event, God forbid, that I ever have to shoot somebody, then so long as the shooting appears good to ACLDN's investigators, ACLDN will front the legal bills, to a variable upper limit; additionally, I will be guaranteed expert representation, most likely by Marty. Additionally, since I've completed a MAG course with Massad Ayoob, I have Mas' guarantee that he will act as expert defense witness if he thinks it's a good shoot.
ACLDN: http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/
Massad Ayoob Group: http://massadayoobgroup.com/
Consider it legal insurance. The training was good, too, both with Mas and Marty.
Definitely going to jury trial is hardly the same as
So, for one thing, that's quite a fallback. For another, it's still not necessarily so. Such cases do not automatically go to a jury, or even a grand jury. Some jurisdictions (such as Oklahoma, for recent example) do not require a DA to take a case before the grand jury, if the DA thinks it is not a good case.
Now, in your follow-on post, you say,
Aside from the fact that this is more or less unlikely, depending on where you are (and whether the shoot was obviously good, notwithstanding the decedent's age), there are ways to deal with that potential problem.
My way, and here's a plug for senior member Marty Hayes, was to join the Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network. In the event, God forbid, that I ever have to shoot somebody, then so long as the shooting appears good to ACLDN's investigators, ACLDN will front the legal bills, to a variable upper limit; additionally, I will be guaranteed expert representation, most likely by Marty. Additionally, since I've completed a MAG course with Massad Ayoob, I have Mas' guarantee that he will act as expert defense witness if he thinks it's a good shoot.
ACLDN: http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/
Massad Ayoob Group: http://massadayoobgroup.com/
Consider it legal insurance. The training was good, too, both with Mas and Marty.
hangglider
Moderator
Thank you Skans, MLeake and Kathy--useful suggestions that I can reasonably action on is what I was hoping for.
One other thing: I've spent more than the last 20 years living in "inner city" high crime areas--due mostly to work and/or contractual obligations. I've successfully evaded more than one potential mugging and shooting encounter in that time--so I'm not as naive about this stuff as my first posts might make me out to be.
What I see going on down here in Chattanooga is a game-changer. These gangs are more pervasive in the community (meaning from children to adults) and in some cases connected to larger crime organizations and cartels. Arms, tactics and brazenness of gang related violent crime has escalated to the point where the city (Chattanooga is more of a "big town" than a real city), IMO, does not have either the resources, the will, or the ability to contain the accelerating rate of violent crime. I've seen these guys in action--often in groups of a half dozen or more working fast to beat police response times. All you have to do is read the daily news here to see that they often will shoot without hesitation--in fact predatory sniping is all too common.
I never felt this way even when I lived in downtown Washington DC when it was the murder capital of the USA.
One other thing: I've spent more than the last 20 years living in "inner city" high crime areas--due mostly to work and/or contractual obligations. I've successfully evaded more than one potential mugging and shooting encounter in that time--so I'm not as naive about this stuff as my first posts might make me out to be.
What I see going on down here in Chattanooga is a game-changer. These gangs are more pervasive in the community (meaning from children to adults) and in some cases connected to larger crime organizations and cartels. Arms, tactics and brazenness of gang related violent crime has escalated to the point where the city (Chattanooga is more of a "big town" than a real city), IMO, does not have either the resources, the will, or the ability to contain the accelerating rate of violent crime. I've seen these guys in action--often in groups of a half dozen or more working fast to beat police response times. All you have to do is read the daily news here to see that they often will shoot without hesitation--in fact predatory sniping is all too common.
I never felt this way even when I lived in downtown Washington DC when it was the murder capital of the USA.
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Hanglider, I'm sorry to hear that about Chattanooga. I spend a considerable amount of time there right downtown and haven't ever had a problem with any of this. I like to jog and see lots of joggers around the river when I'm there. I really like Chattanooga.
Just curious, what part of town are you seeing all of the gang trouble? It would be good for me to be on top of this.
Just curious, what part of town are you seeing all of the gang trouble? It would be good for me to be on top of this.
hangglider
Moderator
South and east side. I live in Alton Park The city does a fair job in keeping the north side and touristy part of downtown relatively secure (though there was that gang-related club shooting downtown on Christmas when 9 people got shot). For a better idea where to be and not be, check out the "right to know" page of the local paper and scroll down to the crime map: http://www.timesfreepress.com/content/right2know/
Also this map does not include attempted or random shootings--which I know occurs in excess of what's on the map--so draw your own conclusions--but definitely use common sense when visiting here.
Also this map does not include attempted or random shootings--which I know occurs in excess of what's on the map--so draw your own conclusions--but definitely use common sense when visiting here.
MLeake, it engenders quite a false sense of security to imply anything other than life-changing legal issues, both criminal & civil, after a shooting regardless of circumstances. I'm not going to parse words, mince words or dice words -- or even fall back in words. Too many of my fellow grads are in the legal & the police game and we've gone around this problem for many years.
Advice to HangGlider: First, stay out of those situations where the Reasonable Man might expect to need a weapon if all all possible. Second, flee if at all possible. Third, give what the BG's might want -- unless it's reasonably clear that you should fear harm even after giving over. Fourth, if your gun comes out, use it center mass -- no fiddling around. Fifth, give the cops the basic facts.
Sixth, get a lawyer on retainer no matter what.
Advice to HangGlider: First, stay out of those situations where the Reasonable Man might expect to need a weapon if all all possible. Second, flee if at all possible. Third, give what the BG's might want -- unless it's reasonably clear that you should fear harm even after giving over. Fourth, if your gun comes out, use it center mass -- no fiddling around. Fifth, give the cops the basic facts.
Sixth, get a lawyer on retainer no matter what.
mehavey, I am not suggesting it is not a very serious proposition. I am suggesting that your "you will definitely" go through a jury trial is an inaccurate statement.
It is also inaccurate to say a lawyer will probably own all one's stuff, unless you are in a very unfriendly jurisdiction, or unless the shooting looks suspicious.
In places like FL and GA, in a clearly good defensive shooting, not only should one not be charged, but one is indemnified against civil suit by the BG and his family.
Otherwise, I think your advice has been pretty good. (And the parts I disagree with do become more likely to go your way in some other jurisdictions.)
Shooting should be the last option.
It is also inaccurate to say a lawyer will probably own all one's stuff, unless you are in a very unfriendly jurisdiction, or unless the shooting looks suspicious.
In places like FL and GA, in a clearly good defensive shooting, not only should one not be charged, but one is indemnified against civil suit by the BG and his family.
Otherwise, I think your advice has been pretty good. (And the parts I disagree with do become more likely to go your way in some other jurisdictions.)
Shooting should be the last option.
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I do not think this is true in California. The fear must be the fear a reasonable person would feel in similar situation. The jury will decide if the fear reached that level. As pointed out, a different decision is most likely in San Francisco than in Dallas under similar conditions.
hangglider
Moderator
How would you react? Here's what happened to the police just up the street from where I live--though probably not a gang related action. http://www.nooga.com/151312/track-29-patrons-assault-police-on-opening-night/
hangglider
Moderator
You're welcome Skans.
Attempted Disarming
If someone is attempting to disarm you--what are the consequences if he succeeds? In my opinion, you are justified in shooting someone attempting to get your gun in most instances. The cops do it all the time. Now, if you are 6'4" and 260 pounds and your assailant is 14 years old and 105 pounds, then please disregard the second sentence.
If someone is attempting to disarm you--what are the consequences if he succeeds? In my opinion, you are justified in shooting someone attempting to get your gun in most instances. The cops do it all the time. Now, if you are 6'4" and 260 pounds and your assailant is 14 years old and 105 pounds, then please disregard the second sentence.
Just a personal decision, . . . since I am 67, have some physical limitations, and really don't plan on being someone elses victim, . . . I would probably be a bit more prone to go for my 1911 than many others.
Any perceived life/death threat or approaching scenario wherein I see it unfolding, . . . my 1911 is coming out of it's holster, . . . that is why I carry it.
When I do, it will be done by turning so it is away from the threat, . . . and may never be seen by the other person. There are any number of scenarios I can envision where I would have the weapon out, . . . and nothing happen other than my putting it away.
I made my mind up early in this that if necessary, . . . I'd much rather be charged with a "brandishing" charge, . . . than visit my local undertaker. That is MY decision, however, . . . and may very well not be good for everyone.
May God bless,
Dwight
Any perceived life/death threat or approaching scenario wherein I see it unfolding, . . . my 1911 is coming out of it's holster, . . . that is why I carry it.
When I do, it will be done by turning so it is away from the threat, . . . and may never be seen by the other person. There are any number of scenarios I can envision where I would have the weapon out, . . . and nothing happen other than my putting it away.
I made my mind up early in this that if necessary, . . . I'd much rather be charged with a "brandishing" charge, . . . than visit my local undertaker. That is MY decision, however, . . . and may very well not be good for everyone.
May God bless,
Dwight
If you reasonably feel that your life could be in danger from threat of an attack, then either 1) get ready to draw your gun from concealment or 2) draw your gun from concealment and have it ready to fire. The circumstances, distances, number of potential attackers, etc. will dictate which action to take.
It's really not that complex.
I was at a gas station last night pumping gas. Its in an area known to for the occasional hold-up (not a real bad area of town, but stuff happens there). I get gas there from time to time and have seen "hinkey" people hanging around. Several guys on motorcycles (I have nothing against motorcycles, I've got one) pull up. I'm standing at the pump, just observing them, all the while my hand is in my pocket resting on the butt of my LC9 while I'm waiting for my tank to fill up. I'm just standing there, so I run some scenarios through my mind - just good practice to do this. As usual, nothing happens and my gun remains concealed. But, I know in my mind that I was prepared if something were to happen.
For me, being prepared for a potential attack is a way of thinking. It's like playing chess: what moves can your potential attacker make; how can you counter; what will be the possible reactions; what are your options; what outcome do you want? In the game of life, I'll go for a stalemate every time.
It's really not that complex.
I was at a gas station last night pumping gas. Its in an area known to for the occasional hold-up (not a real bad area of town, but stuff happens there). I get gas there from time to time and have seen "hinkey" people hanging around. Several guys on motorcycles (I have nothing against motorcycles, I've got one) pull up. I'm standing at the pump, just observing them, all the while my hand is in my pocket resting on the butt of my LC9 while I'm waiting for my tank to fill up. I'm just standing there, so I run some scenarios through my mind - just good practice to do this. As usual, nothing happens and my gun remains concealed. But, I know in my mind that I was prepared if something were to happen.
For me, being prepared for a potential attack is a way of thinking. It's like playing chess: what moves can your potential attacker make; how can you counter; what will be the possible reactions; what are your options; what outcome do you want? In the game of life, I'll go for a stalemate every time.
Crankgrinder
New member
large roving hordes of gang members was the ops original post.
and we all know what gangs and gang members are known for. I certainly am rolling the dice on this one but it has been brought to my attention quite a few times at least here in Texas that any more that three (3) individuals behaving violently constitutes gang violence and also Texas is a no retreat state if someone is threatening you you have the right to plant your boots where you stand. There have been too many instances where one was mugged, complied and was shot anyway, there have also been gang initiations where people have been shot at random with no provocation. If i were mugged by a gang of individuals, armed as usual with the same number of shots i might take my chance that a couple might be pretty mean, the rest just prospects put up to the job to prove themselves, i might also take the chance that they are not combat vets and when they see a head or two come apart theyll remember that they dont want to die.
and we all know what gangs and gang members are known for. I certainly am rolling the dice on this one but it has been brought to my attention quite a few times at least here in Texas that any more that three (3) individuals behaving violently constitutes gang violence and also Texas is a no retreat state if someone is threatening you you have the right to plant your boots where you stand. There have been too many instances where one was mugged, complied and was shot anyway, there have also been gang initiations where people have been shot at random with no provocation. If i were mugged by a gang of individuals, armed as usual with the same number of shots i might take my chance that a couple might be pretty mean, the rest just prospects put up to the job to prove themselves, i might also take the chance that they are not combat vets and when they see a head or two come apart theyll remember that they dont want to die.
hangglider,
There are some NRA courses that you ought to read up on.
http://www.nrainstructors.org/CourseCatalog.aspx
Use the above link and read the course descriptions of the three listed courses below.
You might want to progress through those three. The "Basic" course is a prerequisite for the "In the Home" course, which is a prerequisite for the "Outside the Home" course.
NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Course
NRA Basic Personal Protection In The Home Course
NRA Basics of Personal Protection Outside The Home Course
Both the "In the Home" and the "Outside the Home" courses have an hour taught by either a lawyer or a LEO who is competent to teach the relevant legal issues pertaining to the two courses.
Once you have completed all three courses, you have been exposed to the many factors which you should consider before venturing forth armed in your jurisdiction.
These courses are not meant to be training like you get at Gunsite or Thunder ranch. Actual range time for all of the three noted NRA courses is a small portion of the courses.
There are some NRA courses that you ought to read up on.
http://www.nrainstructors.org/CourseCatalog.aspx
Use the above link and read the course descriptions of the three listed courses below.
You might want to progress through those three. The "Basic" course is a prerequisite for the "In the Home" course, which is a prerequisite for the "Outside the Home" course.
NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Course
NRA Basic Personal Protection In The Home Course
NRA Basics of Personal Protection Outside The Home Course
Both the "In the Home" and the "Outside the Home" courses have an hour taught by either a lawyer or a LEO who is competent to teach the relevant legal issues pertaining to the two courses.
Once you have completed all three courses, you have been exposed to the many factors which you should consider before venturing forth armed in your jurisdiction.
These courses are not meant to be training like you get at Gunsite or Thunder ranch. Actual range time for all of the three noted NRA courses is a small portion of the courses.