Much as I am opposed to the concept of mandatory training...

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For those of you who demand punishment what would you give? What is justice here? What would it take to prevent others from the, " transient lapses of judgment or attention" that fiddletown recently mentioned in another thread. Do you really think fear of punishment will do it? How many people are killed on the highways of our country each year because of a transient lapse of attention? How many hunters are killed because of a transient lapse in judgement? If punishment was such a powerful deterrent why are our prisons so full, and our crime rates so high?

I completely agree accountability for our actions is an important part of our social fabric, but arbitrary punishment for stupid, tragic accidents will not stop them.
 
We punish people for the lapse in judgement of driving under the influence. I believe this is just.

Here we have adults indulging in a legal activity which is known to lead to a condition where a judgement is impaired. We punish these people for making the poor judgment of diving while drunk even if they don't injure anyone.

Should we not punish drunk drivers?

We have a case of an adult choosing to posses a lethal weapon as should be his right. His responsibility should be to take reasonable care to make sure his right to carry does not interfere with another's right to live. If he fails in this, not in a freak accident but in complete disregard of basic safety rules should he be treated differently than a drunk driver? Why?
 
Drunk driving is a crime, and any damage done because of it a crime. Being stupid is not a crime. If it were many of us would be serving jail time. He had a stupid lapse of judgement that tragically resulted in a young woman being killed. It was completely preventable. What is your punishment for this "crime"? It is not a sarcastic question. I don't know what justice is here. I just don't see how imprisoning this guy will do anything but ruin more lives.
 
How many hunters are killed because of a transient lapse in judgement?
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My point exactly. How many hunters are punished for negligently killing another? It's always a "hunting accident". I thought that poor SOB dressed in orange was a deer. Oh, the guy had a brown coat so I thought he was a deer (does this guy know what a deer looks like?). "I took a "sound shot"". (This is not criminally negligent?).

To get back to the original topic, if a person who knowingly takes a firearm into a populated area, does not make sure it is clear of ammunition and even if he thought he did, points it in a direction where he has no idea what is beyond AND puts his finger on the trigger is not criminally or recklessly negligent then who is?

Why can we not demand better of our fellow gun owners? Why should they be excused of such idiocy?

I'm sorry, I think I've beat the poor nag into a red sludge. Please forgive me. I've always been dismayed by how completely irresponsible hunters could get away with murder and I don't feel people choosing to go armed should be given a free pass because they "made a mistake". If you choose to be armed you must choose NOT to make a mistake.
 
We're starting to get into the realm of fruitless speculations.

[1] We have very few details. We only have a general idea, based on news media accounts of what happened.

[2] In assessing legal liability and culpability, details frequently matter a great deal.

[3] And Zambrana's legal liability will decided based on Florida law.

[4] I have no doubt that Mr. Zambrana can be held legally responsible in some way. But whether it will only be a matter of civil liability or criminal charges will be brought and sustained remains to be seen.
 
Cascade you make a compelling case. You may be right. I have way more questions than answers, and I appreciate your serious reply.
 
Kmac, here's another question. Why is someone drinking making the stupid lack of judgment to drive a lethal vehicle committing a crime, even if he doesn't kill someone while a gun owner, making a whole cascade of poor judgements while possessing a firearm that results in another persons death is just an unfortunate accident? Please, explain the difference?

If we, the advocates of gun ownership and carry can not expect as much let alone better from people we are allowing to walk among us with deadly weapons than a any patron of a bar why should the people who fear gun ownership?

Goodnight and Goodluck
 
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Fiddletown, you are correct in all your points.

My posts have not tried to address the legal issue of the original case but more the philosophical idea of personal responsibility when choosing to exercise the right of going armed.

I don't want to turn this into a crusade so I'll leave it alone (unless directly addressed.)
 
Driving while drunk is not something that happens in a instant. It is a deliberate act of defiance of the law. Yes there was a series of mistakes made by Zambrano that culminated in the trigger being pulled on a loaded chamber. It was not deliberate violation of the law.

If we, the advocates of gun ownership and carry can not expect as much let alone better from people we are allowing to walk among us with deadly weapons than a any patron of a bar why should the people who fear gun ownership?
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An excellent question. My real concern is not in the expecting, but the enforcing.

EDIT: fiddletown I will leave it alone also. I do think it is a topic worthy of discussing and appreciate a place to do it.
 
Cascade1911 said:
...My posts have not tried to address the legal issue of the original case but more the philosophical idea of personal responsibility when choosing to exercise the right of going armed...
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And I completely agree that anyone who chooses to go armed in public needs to accept personal responsibility for his conduct (actually everyone should, but that's another story).
 
K_Mac said:
An excellent question. My real concern is not in the expecting, but the enforcing.
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We may all find common ground on expecting the best behavior of each of us in public. You do bring up an interesting question about the concern of enforcing... This is a point we all have (myself included) voiced different opinions on.

While this will be up to the jurisdiction having authority in florida to investigate and to go from there as far as any charges, perhaps maybe we should look at this another way. As a law abiding firearms owner, if this had been your or my daughter, would it make a difference, or help to provide any closure, etc, if charges are not filed, or are filed?

While many here speak of how the person who fired the firearm has to live with this on his mind, so does the young lady's family/friends.

Also, as with others, I too will with hold any further comments unless asked specifically
 
I just read through the thread. I think back on page 1, Peetzakilla summed it up: one bad choice would not have caused that young woman to be shot, but one *good* choice could have prevented it. This is so sad.
 
The irony of that linked article, younggunz4life, is that the accompanying picture shows a Browning Hi-Power, a gun that (unmodified) has a magazine disconnect safety. Odds are that is not the type of gun the guy in that article was using (shot himself after removing the magazine from whatever gun he had).

The article didn't really describe the environment in which that shooter was performing his demonstration.

In the case under discussion in this thread, though, Zambrana was manipulating a gun in an occupied building.

While fiddletown is correct, in that a court will decide if it was simple negligence or something more culpable, my opinion is that the closest traffic parallel would be a guy showing off a car he was trying to sell by gunning the engine and speeding in a residential neighborhood.

To me, neither would be "simple negligence," if injury or death to a bystander were to occur.

I think the thing that may help Zambrana most is that the victim's family seem to want to treat this as an unfortunate accident. I would not fault the prosecutor for honoring the family's wishes, and taking a more compassionate approach.

But I also wouldn't fault him if he went for negligent homicide or involuntary manslaughter.
 
I wonder what punishment each of us would deserve if our "stupid thing" had killed someone rather than, by sheer luck, having got away with it?

Because we have each done something negligent that could have killed someone if we'd won the "bad luck lottery".

I wonder if we'd be calling for charges? Saying "Nope, no, I was negligent. Charge me with homicide!"?

Did Zambrana do a really stupid thing? Yep. He sure did.

When I was in my teens and early 20s, I participated in MANY illegal street races. I drove 50-70 mph on downtown city streets. I specifically remember one time going almost 90 in a 45. I once passed an unmarked car on the highway going 120+. Almost killed my best friend in an accident. (Yeah, it was even an accident caused by negligence!)

I could have EASILY killed someone. I got LUCKY and didn't.

Zambrana got UNlucky and did.

He didn't do it on purpose any more than I would have.

He has and will suffer enough. He didn't push a drunk homeless guy into a canal and watch him drown, which is what a guy who applied for a job with me had done. HE got Criminally Negligent Homicide, and deserved it.

Zambrana had a really, really, really, worst possible kind of bad day that will lead to a really bad life for a good long time.

Leave the poor man alone.
 
If you did kill someone do you feel you should not have been punished?

I wonder if we'd be calling for charges? Saying "Nope, no, I was negligent. Charge me with homicide!"?
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Do you really think that statement is any kind of argument against punishment for recklessly negligent acts?

Zambrana got UNlucky...
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Nope, Hannah Kelley got unlucky, Zambrana was criminally reckless.

Zambrana had a really, really, really, worst possible kind of bad day that will lead to a really bad life for a good long time.
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No again. Hanna Kelley had the worst possible kind of bad day and will have no more. Zambrana had many choices and many chances to NOT kill Hannah Kelley. Hanna had no choices. What leads you to say Zambrana have a bad life for a long time. I don't know the guy. He obviously did not have a high regard for his neighbors safety before the incident, why should I believe that has changed now? Because he said he didn't mean it, feels really bad and is really, really sorry?

How is it "bad luck" to take a fire arm into a closet in a public place, fail to unload it, point it in a direction you don't know is safe, put your finger on the trigger and pull the trigger? You call that "bad luck"? Hanna had bad luck. Zambrana had choices, many of them.

I know I said I was going to drop this but when the perpetrator becomes the victim, I could not stay away.
 
The perpetrator is not the victim.

I'm really glad that I got away with my stupid things.

I refuse to be unmerciful to those who did not.
 
PK, I have family members who've been injured by drunk drivers (facial reconstructive surgery required) and idiot street racers (two herniated disks in the neck, one in the lower back, plus shoulder injuries).

I can assure you that, as merciful as you may wish to be toward people who "have a bad day" when they are doing something that truly stupid, I am equally inclined to not be so merciful.

People being merciful toward these idiots when they did similar things in previous incidents is why the same idiots were able to injure my family.
 
can I add on a slightly un-related note that I like qualifying, and I wish more instructors for CCW courses were gung-ho about it?

I'm all for giving the nervous people a second chance, if they couldn't get most of their 10 shots in a pie plate at 10 yards.

I'm not for arming people who can't hit what they are aiming at.

I know it's a little ot, but it is mandatory training I'm all in favor of...make your 80 (Or whatever it is where you live) or shoot until you can.
 
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