Movie: The Patriot
- Thread starter Glamdring
- Start date
David Robertson, Clint Eastwood is only "kinda" pro-RKBA, insofar as he believes in HIS Right, but not necessairly "your's." He has an extensive collection of firearms, and a CCW. But he has stated in interviews in the L.A. Times (Pravda West), that he can't see why anyone would object to registering their firearms, and that he didn't think anyone "needed those assault guns."
By the way, according to the British Historian, M.S. Creasy, M.E., Professor in Ancient & Modern History in University College, London, and Fellow of King's College, Cambridge, in his book, "The Fifteen Decisive Battles Of The World, Marathon to Waterloo," published by Harper & Brothers, New York, 1851, the truly pivotal battle of the American Revolution was the battle for Saratoga.
Had the Colonists not completely defeated Gen. Burgoyne's British expedition at Saratoga, the British would have very effectively sealed off the New England colonies from the middle and southern colonies, and the war would have been over.
Yorktown was, of course, very important, but the battle of Saratoga was the king pin.
By the way, Shane Black, who wrote the original screenplay for "Lethal Weapon" knew virtually nothing about firearms. He just threw stuff in the script that he thought sounded "good," and then Dick Donner, a very anti-gun leftist Hollywood director, who has admitted that he hates the NRA, directed the flick as he saw fit.
FWIW. J.B.
By the way, according to the British Historian, M.S. Creasy, M.E., Professor in Ancient & Modern History in University College, London, and Fellow of King's College, Cambridge, in his book, "The Fifteen Decisive Battles Of The World, Marathon to Waterloo," published by Harper & Brothers, New York, 1851, the truly pivotal battle of the American Revolution was the battle for Saratoga.
Had the Colonists not completely defeated Gen. Burgoyne's British expedition at Saratoga, the British would have very effectively sealed off the New England colonies from the middle and southern colonies, and the war would have been over.
Yorktown was, of course, very important, but the battle of Saratoga was the king pin.
By the way, Shane Black, who wrote the original screenplay for "Lethal Weapon" knew virtually nothing about firearms. He just threw stuff in the script that he thought sounded "good," and then Dick Donner, a very anti-gun leftist Hollywood director, who has admitted that he hates the NRA, directed the flick as he saw fit.
FWIW. J.B.
My senior thesis was about the British view of the American Revolution. It was designed to give the British perspective, and while it taught me that many of the British's actions were understandable, they fell way short of justified. (I got my degree in history)
Quickly: Under the Mercantile system, the American colonies were granted in most part self rule. The purpose for the UK was not to rule over distant lands, but to provide land poor Britain with natural resources, and customers for British finished products. It was mutually beneficial by everyone's standards.
Then came the French and Indian War. Guess what? The Americans didn't do so good. The British had to send red coats across the Atlantic to help protect the colonies while they were trying to win the "real war" in the East.
After the war was over, the British decided it would be necessary to leave British regulars in the New World to help protect the colonies. They figured the Americans should help pay for it and support the soldiers.
In comes taxation (without representation). People complain. The Stamp Act is passed to tax (and therefore suppress) those who would complain publically using publications. The British removed the tax on East India Tea to promote its sales in the New World and therefore prop up the failing government owned company, while leaving the Townsend Act taxes on all other tea, giving East India an advantage over American tea merchants. (That's right, the Boston Tea Party was over the removal of taxes on British tea).
The bottom line: you could make an argument that the British were justified, or felt justified, in taxing the colonies to recoup French and Indian War debt and future expenditures. But the British really put themselves in a spot when they tried to suppress the dissent created by the new taxes, and further aggravated the situation my economically manipulating the colonists to the crown's advantage.
The colonists could not have their say in parliment (no representation), and the British foolishly tried to quell political opposition using force. The redcoats were quickly turned from an instrument of the colonists protection to an instrument to control the colonists themselves. At that point, the revolution was very justified.
And yes, we had alot of help from the French and some lucky breaks along the way, but we kicked the crap out of the British when it counted. Yes, they won most of the major battles, but we won every major battle in Vietnam and still lost the war.
Incredibly simplistic summary, but hopefully demonstrates the "middle of the road" as it regards the "baby stabbing" British during the AR.
Can't wait for Patriot.
frye
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"Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death" - Patrick Henry
Quickly: Under the Mercantile system, the American colonies were granted in most part self rule. The purpose for the UK was not to rule over distant lands, but to provide land poor Britain with natural resources, and customers for British finished products. It was mutually beneficial by everyone's standards.
Then came the French and Indian War. Guess what? The Americans didn't do so good. The British had to send red coats across the Atlantic to help protect the colonies while they were trying to win the "real war" in the East.
After the war was over, the British decided it would be necessary to leave British regulars in the New World to help protect the colonies. They figured the Americans should help pay for it and support the soldiers.
In comes taxation (without representation). People complain. The Stamp Act is passed to tax (and therefore suppress) those who would complain publically using publications. The British removed the tax on East India Tea to promote its sales in the New World and therefore prop up the failing government owned company, while leaving the Townsend Act taxes on all other tea, giving East India an advantage over American tea merchants. (That's right, the Boston Tea Party was over the removal of taxes on British tea).
The bottom line: you could make an argument that the British were justified, or felt justified, in taxing the colonies to recoup French and Indian War debt and future expenditures. But the British really put themselves in a spot when they tried to suppress the dissent created by the new taxes, and further aggravated the situation my economically manipulating the colonists to the crown's advantage.
The colonists could not have their say in parliment (no representation), and the British foolishly tried to quell political opposition using force. The redcoats were quickly turned from an instrument of the colonists protection to an instrument to control the colonists themselves. At that point, the revolution was very justified.
And yes, we had alot of help from the French and some lucky breaks along the way, but we kicked the crap out of the British when it counted. Yes, they won most of the major battles, but we won every major battle in Vietnam and still lost the war.
Incredibly simplistic summary, but hopefully demonstrates the "middle of the road" as it regards the "baby stabbing" British during the AR.
Can't wait for Patriot.
frye
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"Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death" - Patrick Henry
What's anti-gun about LW4? Hm, let's see:
First, and most obvious, is gun handling by several police officers that is not only dangerous, but illegal. Faced with individuals waving deadly weapons at me (without cause), I would shoot them.
Second, at the beginning, we have Mel's character suggesting that the individual with the assault rifle and flamethrower is "an NRA spokesman".
Third, we have a large poster with "no" slash through NRA in the police station.
Forth, we see one of the two main characters tell a citizen he "doesn't need a gun", and throw the citizen's licensed handgun over the side into the ocean.
Is that enough for you?
First, and most obvious, is gun handling by several police officers that is not only dangerous, but illegal. Faced with individuals waving deadly weapons at me (without cause), I would shoot them.
Second, at the beginning, we have Mel's character suggesting that the individual with the assault rifle and flamethrower is "an NRA spokesman".
Third, we have a large poster with "no" slash through NRA in the police station.
Forth, we see one of the two main characters tell a citizen he "doesn't need a gun", and throw the citizen's licensed handgun over the side into the ocean.
Is that enough for you?
Steve Smith
New member
RikWriter, you and I have our differences, but there are more important things than whether we like certain brands, and, at the possibility of having the thread close and possibily lose my ability to post here, I will stand with you shoulder to shoulder and defend history. A reading of the Declaration of Independence will explain to any fool that we were being treated like crap, and we decided to stop taking it.
This was kicked around at AR-15 a while back. What I got from it is Mel is a good guy. He collects handguns btw. More importantly the only anti-gun stuff I have ever seen from him were in the LW series. The Patriot is gonna make 2 pro liberty movies he has worked on not in but on. Screenplay and production. My take is a contract was signed for LW 1 saying you appear in so so sequals or whatever. Couldnt get out of it. Hollywood is so blantantly anti-gun not a chance of him reworking the script at all.
While I was in Washington showing the million mommys the longest finger and 2 buttcheeks, my brother saw a interview with Bo Derek who said she was told in so many words she will never work again if she kept up with her conservative views.
Mel is not listed in the NRA's den of thieves so that along with a couple of pro freedom movies is enough for me to give him the benefit of the doubt.
While I was in Washington showing the million mommys the longest finger and 2 buttcheeks, my brother saw a interview with Bo Derek who said she was told in so many words she will never work again if she kept up with her conservative views.
Mel is not listed in the NRA's den of thieves so that along with a couple of pro freedom movies is enough for me to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Scaramanga
New member
Spectre: Ease up sparky. Don't get your panties in a bunch. I asked a legitimate question since I didn't pay too much attention to the movie when I saw it. Besides, some of that can be viewed as just plain ignorance/idiocy and not specific anti-RKBA. Thanks for the info.
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Strength does not come from physical capacity.
It comes from an indomitable will. -- Mahatma Gandhi
[This message has been edited by Scaramanga (edited June 01, 2000).]
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Strength does not come from physical capacity.
It comes from an indomitable will. -- Mahatma Gandhi
[This message has been edited by Scaramanga (edited June 01, 2000).]
RikWriter,
Yes indeed, but I believe the movie U-571 represents the first (and thus most significant) capture as being by the US, this is a blatant falsehood. Also, only the British proved capable of deciphering messages generated by 3 and 4 spool Enigmas at their Bletchley Park complex, also known under its codename of Station X, under the guidance of the genius head cryptographer Alan Turing. You could argue that it was more in the interests of the British to crack the enigma code since it was their people who were starving as a result of the U-Boat blockade of the North Atlantic, but that would be to deny the facts, and those are that the British both recovered the first enigma, and were the only allied nation who proved capable of cracking the codes so generated. Perhaps the most telling chapter of the story from our point of view is that the US sent a cryptography team to Station X, and, as a result modelled the American cryptography division on the British example. To deny the British anything but total credit for both the recovery of the first enigma machine and the cracking of the enigma code would be like crediting the British with the conquest of Iwo Jima and Tarawa. How do you think we'd like it ? For crying out loud can't we make crappy movies about some other nation, how about France, now there is a nation worthy of Hollywoods worst excesses.
Mike H
Yes indeed, but I believe the movie U-571 represents the first (and thus most significant) capture as being by the US, this is a blatant falsehood. Also, only the British proved capable of deciphering messages generated by 3 and 4 spool Enigmas at their Bletchley Park complex, also known under its codename of Station X, under the guidance of the genius head cryptographer Alan Turing. You could argue that it was more in the interests of the British to crack the enigma code since it was their people who were starving as a result of the U-Boat blockade of the North Atlantic, but that would be to deny the facts, and those are that the British both recovered the first enigma, and were the only allied nation who proved capable of cracking the codes so generated. Perhaps the most telling chapter of the story from our point of view is that the US sent a cryptography team to Station X, and, as a result modelled the American cryptography division on the British example. To deny the British anything but total credit for both the recovery of the first enigma machine and the cracking of the enigma code would be like crediting the British with the conquest of Iwo Jima and Tarawa. How do you think we'd like it ? For crying out loud can't we make crappy movies about some other nation, how about France, now there is a nation worthy of Hollywoods worst excesses.
Mike H
During the Revolution, a British officer ordered a boy to clean his boots. When the boy refused, the officer slapped the boy in the head with a sword, opening a large gash. Years later, the British made a habit of impressing our sailers into their navy, and we went to war again.
In New Orleans, the boy that was slapped commanded the American army that handed the British a huge defeat, and we've had no trouble with them since. The boy became General Andrew Jackson, and you can see the scar on his forehead in the portraits.
[This message has been edited by Matrix (edited June 01, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Matrix (edited June 01, 2000).]
In New Orleans, the boy that was slapped commanded the American army that handed the British a huge defeat, and we've had no trouble with them since. The boy became General Andrew Jackson, and you can see the scar on his forehead in the portraits.
[This message has been edited by Matrix (edited June 01, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Matrix (edited June 01, 2000).]
Jeff Thomas
New member
101_proof, I'm with you ... I'm giving Mel the benefit of the doubt, and I've got my fingers crossed.
Hopefully, The Patriot will be wonderful affirmation of liberty and freedom, and their benefits for human civilization. Wouldn't hurt if he makes it clear that 'gun control' sparked the conflict as well.
Regards from AZ
Hopefully, The Patriot will be wonderful affirmation of liberty and freedom, and their benefits for human civilization. Wouldn't hurt if he makes it clear that 'gun control' sparked the conflict as well.
Regards from AZ
tackdriver
New member
Andrew Jackson, that's someone to be proud of 
wait... wasn't he the the one that got impeached, yo hablo trail of tears? What a facist.
Anyway, I acknowledge the fact that the french whooped up at Yorktown and that we'd probably be speaking with a british accent if it weren't for them.
LaFayette is my boy
I wasn't trying to turn this into an anti-british thread. History IS history and I'm sorry if I'm slightly resentful of the fact that during HISTORY the british have crapped on my family. They crapped on the Irish, they crapped on the Scottish, they crapped on the French and they crapped on America. I don't believe in holding this against current brits any more than I believe in white guilt.
I think I'm still allowed to be bitter though.
God Save the Queen
[This message has been edited by tackdriver (edited June 02, 2000).]
wait... wasn't he the the one that got impeached, yo hablo trail of tears? What a facist.
Anyway, I acknowledge the fact that the french whooped up at Yorktown and that we'd probably be speaking with a british accent if it weren't for them.
LaFayette is my boy
I wasn't trying to turn this into an anti-british thread. History IS history and I'm sorry if I'm slightly resentful of the fact that during HISTORY the british have crapped on my family. They crapped on the Irish, they crapped on the Scottish, they crapped on the French and they crapped on America. I don't believe in holding this against current brits any more than I believe in white guilt.
I think I'm still allowed to be bitter though.
God Save the Queen [This message has been edited by tackdriver (edited June 02, 2000).]
Jeff Thomas
New member
A friend gave me a clipping from US Weekly magazine - 5-29-00, titled "The Heros of Summer: The Real Mel Gibson", pages 60 - 63.
On page 63: "Ironically, Gibson, a staunch believer in the right to bear arms, has taught his own children how to use guns. 'They love going in to the woods with those guns that shoot paint balls.' he told Premiere in 1997. 'We crawl around in the bushes and nail one another. The merciless one is the youngest: He's a 6-year-old killing machine.'"
The article goes on to say he doesn't apologize for his views, and sometimes takes unpopular stands.
Since we all deal with the RKBA, we're pretty jaundiced towards the press ... when they're not lying, it is because they are misinformed.
So, who knows if this story is on the level.
But, it is interesting.
Regards from AZ
[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited June 02, 2000).]
On page 63: "Ironically, Gibson, a staunch believer in the right to bear arms, has taught his own children how to use guns. 'They love going in to the woods with those guns that shoot paint balls.' he told Premiere in 1997. 'We crawl around in the bushes and nail one another. The merciless one is the youngest: He's a 6-year-old killing machine.'"
The article goes on to say he doesn't apologize for his views, and sometimes takes unpopular stands.
Since we all deal with the RKBA, we're pretty jaundiced towards the press ... when they're not lying, it is because they are misinformed.
So, who knows if this story is on the level.But, it is interesting.
Regards from AZ
[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited June 02, 2000).]
Correct me if I'm wrong but Mel was American born but him and his family moved to Australia to dodge the draft during Vietnam. Then he got into Aussie movies like Tim and Madmax. Madmax sequel, Road Warrior, was an American film and he's been here ever since.
If this is all true I'm no Gibson fan.
I also want to say the Administrators do a good job.
Thanks!
Shok
If this is all true I'm no Gibson fan.
I also want to say the Administrators do a good job.
Thanks!
Shok
Well, the Polish provided the actual ground work for breaking the Enigma Code. Yet, the British take all of the credit. No one ever mentions the Polish contribution.
Unless, you've seen the silly submarine movie, you'd know that history is wrong and the Americans broke the code. By the way, I only believe what I see at the movies!
Unless, you've seen the silly submarine movie, you'd know that history is wrong and the Americans broke the code. By the way, I only believe what I see at the movies!
Agent Orange
New member
Everything that I have read about Mel Gibson's personal life leads me to believe he is a true conservative: RKBA, anti-abortion, devout Catholic (as a result, he has lots of children). I don't care what his father did (dubious claim of draft dodging). I wil not visit the sins of the father upon the child.
I saw the Bo Derek interview, and I couldn't believe what I saw and heard. My mistaken impression was that she would be a typical Hollywood Blonde actress nitwit. She displayed actual intelligence and was surprisingly articulate. Bo was advised that it would be wise for her to keep her conservative values to herself if she wanted to find employment in La-La Land.
Bill Maher of Politically Incorrect has said that it is difficult for him to get conservative actors and actresses (there are several according to Maher)on his show because they are afraid they will be blacklisted or that being a guest on the show would make it difficult for them to find work. The left does not tolerate dissent.
[This message has been edited by Agent Orange (edited June 03, 2000).]
I saw the Bo Derek interview, and I couldn't believe what I saw and heard. My mistaken impression was that she would be a typical Hollywood Blonde actress nitwit. She displayed actual intelligence and was surprisingly articulate. Bo was advised that it would be wise for her to keep her conservative values to herself if she wanted to find employment in La-La Land.
Bill Maher of Politically Incorrect has said that it is difficult for him to get conservative actors and actresses (there are several according to Maher)on his show because they are afraid they will be blacklisted or that being a guest on the show would make it difficult for them to find work. The left does not tolerate dissent.
[This message has been edited by Agent Orange (edited June 03, 2000).]
"Correct me if I'm wrong but Mel was American born but him and his family moved to Australia to dodge the draft during Vietnam. Then he got into Aussie movies like Tim and Madmax. Madmax sequel, Road Warrior, was an American film and he's been here ever since"
Mad Max more or less bombed when released in America but did well everywhere else it was released. The Road Warrior (aka Mad Max 2) was entirely an Aussie production (with a bigger budget and some Joseph Campbell hero/myth symbology).
The third Max may have had some American input - it also weaves a colorful tapestry of characters and situations but lacks the edge of the first two movies.
Gibson gave a hilarious Playboy interview several years ago. I think his father disapproved of the Vietnam war and that may have had something to do, in part, with all the moving.
Jeff
Mad Max more or less bombed when released in America but did well everywhere else it was released. The Road Warrior (aka Mad Max 2) was entirely an Aussie production (with a bigger budget and some Joseph Campbell hero/myth symbology).
The third Max may have had some American input - it also weaves a colorful tapestry of characters and situations but lacks the edge of the first two movies.
Gibson gave a hilarious Playboy interview several years ago. I think his father disapproved of the Vietnam war and that may have had something to do, in part, with all the moving.
Jeff