Most powerful -06 length cartridge

Not a matter of opinion. A matter of experience.
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Not doubting your experience, only the impression you are giving that you have an unfavorable impression about the .458 as a cartridge because someone gut shot game with one.
 
Any elephant shot 29 times was not shot correctly the majority of the shots. It's a case of the Indian not the arrow failing to do the job. Nothing you have stated in your disdain for the .458 Win Mag has shown it's an inadequate cartridge, just that you've experienced the results of sub par shot placement.
 
I would suggest reading Capstick's books, particularly the parts where he tells of his experiences as an elephant cropping officer. He details his success and failures with a number of different rounds.

A lot of his elephant cropping was done with a model 70 .458 Win. Very good stuff.

The .458 isn't the be all, end all round, and did have its share of teething troubles, never fully living up to the original claims, particularly in velocity. But it has worked adequately if not superbly for a long time now, in the hands of competent shooters.

Plus, it fits in a standard length action, delivering nearly or approximately the power of several of the classic African double rifle cartridges in a magazine fed repeater.
 
Taylor I totally agree with the cross bolts in a wooden stock. I know that my Winchester 70 .458 Win. did not have but one lug. I am quite sure that my .460 WBY only had one lug, can't swear to that one though, it was many moons ago that it found a new home. They both had cross bolts. Winchester was big exposed one and wby was epoxied into the stock and hidden as much as possible in the finishing process. All that was visible was black dots.
 
44AMP, the man I used to work for hunted extensively in Africa for many years. His trophy room is unreal. He used the .458 Win mag and the .416 Rigby exclusively for the bigger animals. I remember him telling that the major problem with the 458 Win. was the original ammunition. He said that the original Winchester branded monolithic solids would not penetrate after hitting bone. The would horse shoe and deflect off the bone. He said they recovered some of them out of an Elephant they finally put down. With the advent of a proper bullet for the velocity, the .458 Win. was/is a wonderful cartridge.
 
If second recoil lug is needed or not isn't a big deal, the second lug just spreads recoil out over a larger area. I do know all current production Winchester Safari Express rifles use two recoil lugs. However, I don't think CZ or Ruger uses a two lug system in their big bores. It's really all boils down to personal preferences, and I think we both know where we stand.
 
the major problem with the 458 Win. was the original ammunition.
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This squares well with what I have heard. The original solids did not perform as well as they should have.

according to stories I have heard, things got changed after Joyce Hornady went on safari, and heard the complaints firsthand, from people who used them, and had no idea he was the guy supplying the bullets to Winchester for their .458 ammo.

When he went home, he redesigned the jackets and the .458 got much better.

Don't know if this is true, but it does make a good story. ;)

For solids to work right, not only do they have to be built right, but they also have to impact within the right velocity range. Too low, and obviously its not enough to penetrate the heavy bone (elephant skulls). But too FAST and performance also suffers. The bullets tend to glance off rather than punch through. The best range appears to be from about 1900-2200fps.

This is not a situation encountered in North America very often, although it does happen when things are just right. I was with a party once where a black bear was shot 5 times in the head with a .30-30 at close range. Every shot but the last one, the stars were in alignment for the bear, and the bullets glanced off, due to the angle and curvature of the skull. The last shot struck at the right angle, punched through and dropped the bear, a few yards from the shooter, who promptly returned to camp to change his pants...:D

I don't recall if it was in Death in the Long Grass or one of his other books, but I do remember Capstick telling of the time when as a cropping officer, his .458 failed, and only quick action by his gun bearer saved him.

He had made a habit of reloading over the last round in the mag. The idea being that if he got charged while reloading, there would always be one round there to use. The one time he actually did need it, he made his shot, bullet struck in the right spot, but didn't drop the elephant. His bearer distracted the beast with a water bag (high drought season), he rolled away, reloaded and dropped the elephant.

Now, that was impressive to me, but what really impressed me was that afterwards, to find out what happened, he fired 10 shots (as he had cropping that day) into a termite mound, reloading over the same round every time.

Then he looked at the "emergency" round and saw the bullet had been pushed deeper into the case by the battering of recoil in the magazine.

Compressed powder, higher than intended velocity, the bullet glanced off, rather than penetrated.

I love reading the stuff, because I will never live it. Besides the money, I simply don't have the guts to hunt Tantor like that.:D
 
Not to ruin the 458 win mag argument going back and forth here, it has great information.
But, I would like to ask a few more questions.
Can the 416 rem mag fit into a standard long action. I belive the coal 8s 3.6" compared to a -06 at coal 3.34 this would also bring up the questions about the 375 rum and 375 h &h
 
About a hundred years ago Westley Richards came up with a rebated-rim, large-case, non-belted Magnum cartridge they called the ".425 Westley Richards." It was designed specifically to feed through .30-06 length actions with a .30-06/8x57 bolt face.

The .425 meets Taylor's "Africa" spec; 400 grains at 2400 feet per second.

However, the .425 brass is unique and can't be made from anything else. There are some reproductions made now for several dollars per case. And the ".425" is actually .435" by modern measurements, meaning you're dealing with custom-made bullets. And custom loading dies. And a custom chambering reamer. And... it's way more trouble than it's worth, really... but every now and then I open my copy of "Cartridges of the World" and stare at it for a while.
 
Can the 416 rem mag fit into a standard long action.
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I don't think 3.6" rounds will fit in the standard long (.30-06) action.

There might be exceptions, possibly the US 1917 Enfield is one, I know it is a bit longer then the usual standard action, but don't personally know if it is long enough for a 375H&H length round.

Someone out there have one? maybe they would know..
 
@flashhole- interesting cartridge but little to nothing available for it. Loaded ammo over $8 a squeeze is more than I'm willing to spend on a rifle that will be a loud, painful toy to me.
I am actually considering the 358 norma now. It offer more possibility of use other than annoying others at the range. I think it still qualifies as obnoxious
 
For any/all cartridges that have been referenced in this thread it would be financially advantageous to learn to reload and save a butt-load of money.
 
I would rather shoot .458 WM in the average rifle suitable for the cartridge than .358 Winchester in the average rifle chambered for the cartridge. (One of my brothers may come along shortly and take offense to that.)
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No offense taken, I know my 250's are a little big for ya after those 87 grain 6mm's you're used to playing with.
 
For any/all cartridges that have been referenced in this thread it would be financially advantageous to learn to reload and save a butt-load of money.
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I reload for 3 cartridges now, have a few more planned. I will likely add more. But in the case of the 411 Hawk I cant even get factory brass. Typically I shoot factory ammo and pick up my brass, sometimes I will even use range brass if its in good condition.
 
You could just make it from 30-06 brass. I re-form 25-06 from 30-06 and use HXP headstamp brass (Greek brass). There are no markings on the brass indicating a specific chambering, just HXP and the year it was made. The bigger challenge would be bullet availability.
 
I like all those fancy cartridges. I guess they are wildcats, not sure if that the right name for them or not.
Anyway, I'm still relatively young and working 10-12 hour days 6 days a week and have children. Finding time to build rifles, load ammo and shoot isn't easy. So I don't want to add in any extra steps. I like the option of being able to order factory ammo when needed.
 
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