Most authentic SAA clone?

I have handled a fair number of "First Gen" Colt SAA's, and owned a few over the years, but somehow the new Colts just don't feel right. It is not the mechanism, it seems to be more of the way the grips are made and fitted and maybe the angle of the grip. I can't really see any differences, and it is possible that it is just my imagination, but I believe there is a difference. The USFA guns have that "right" feel; the modern Colts do not.

As for Rugers, they are fine guns, but no one ever claimed them to be copies or clones of the original SAA. They are modern, well designed and well made single action revolvers; they are not, and were never intended to be, correct copies of the old guns.

Jim
 
Thanks pards! I'm looking keenly at the Uberti made Cimarron old model... but I looked on the Cimarron website and it said the gun has a "cowboy comp action than elimanates the weakness of the 19th century design" or something to that effect.

What does that mean?? :confused:

Does that mean it has newer style parts? Honestly I don't care about the "weaknesses" of the old design. I'm not a cowboy action shooter and don't compete in a any way. I want something that is as close to an early Colt Single Action Army as I can get south of $700 or so, inside and outside!

Do you fellers know what the heck a cowboy comp action is?
 
I'm not sure what they do to that one. I know models like the El Patron have hand honed actions, Wolff springs and the rear sight is widened. I have a model P from when they were in Houston. It has Wolff springs but they are aftermarket. I do recommend them because I had a Cattleman and the springs in it were a lot heavier. The Wolff springs make it feel and sound more like an original Colt. The hammer clicks are a lot softer than the Cattleman. One thing that is not historically accurate is the hammer block safety that prevents it from firing if the safety notch gets broken but its not too obvious.
 
Okay cool, are the Wolf springs the same type spring as the originals? I'm just a little confused. I sure wish one of these companies would just make a SAA that was truly the same as the original guns... but I can easily understand liability and legal issues and most of these are bought by CAS guys who probably want a little more reliability etc.
 
The Wolff mainspring is still a leaf spring but is thinner and lighter than the Uberti Cattleman and the bolt/trigger spring is music wire. The Cattleman has original style springs but they're a little heavier. I'm about as much a purist as they come but I like the Wolff springs and its not like you can see them until you tear it down. I guess it comes down to do you want it to look original when you tear it down or feel original when you shoot it. One more thing the Cimarron has their name and address tastefully roll stamped on the barrel Colt style where the Cattleman has it in stamped in block letters. Both have the Colt's patent dates. The Cimarron has all Italian markings hidden under the ejector rod housing except for the cat. number which is required by Italy for export. If it was me I would definitely go with a Uberti Cimarron with the bp frame.



 
Call Cimarron (830) 997-9090 and order a MP512, MP513, or MP514.
These guns are made by Uberti and the only difference in them is the barrel length 4 3/4, 5 1/2, or 7 1/2 .

I have the model MP512, 4 3/4 and I love the gun.
I have over 7000 tier two loads through the gun and it's still tight and accurate.

The info Driftwood Johnson gave you is on the money especially about the sights, they are a little hard to use with old eyes.
That being said here's a little trick I did to my front sight blade.
I polished the blue off the tip ( just the tip) of the blade leaving it a bright polished steel.
In that shallow V rear sight it shines like a new silver dime in a black goats rear end.

I can now see the sight as good as if I had 20 year old eyes and I find that shallow V along with the tapered blade front is a good combination for some accurate shooting.

I was so impressed with my MP512 that I ordered another Cimarron Uberti.
It's a model CA613 Bisley model with 5 1/2 inch barrel, the front sight on this one is wider with a wider rear notch.
I like the sights on my MP512 better.

I have a couple of other Cimarron Uberti models I'm going to get as soon as I get my Rugers sold.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
 
Is it possible to change the bolt/trigger spring to an original leaf spring?

I am really "gunning" for the Cimarron old model w/ a 5 1/2" bbl and in standard blue finish.

Thank you guys so so much for helping me, I am learning so much about a subject that I really don't know all that much about!
 
Model12Win said:
I sure wish one of these companies would just make a SAA that was truly the same as the original guns...
As already posted -- Uberti and Pietta.

However, both companies (and moreso Uberti) make a wide variety of models, some sold under their own names and some labeled for other vendors (such as Cimmaron). For example, some (not all) Ubertis have a funky sliding hammer block gizmo built into the hammer; other models do not. So you have to know what comes on what models if you're aiming for the most accurate clone possible.

Someone has already mentioned the black powder frame. Do you know what that means? Look at the photos in Hawg's post (above). See anything missing?

Now look at this one:

ColtSingleActionArmy.jpg


Do you see the small, round plunger just ahead of the cylinder and below the barrel? That's the spring-loaded plunger that retains the barrel pin. Like the one in Hawg's post, the black powder frames didn't have that plunger. They used a set screw that went in from the front of the frame and pointed up to lock the barrel pin.
 
Mod12Win, yes, you can take the wires out and put in the correct combo. spring (tuned of course!). That (and some other stuff) is what I did as soon as I got my El Patron Comp. home. It's the finest "clone" I've ever owned.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
 
Thanks Mike! You once did a Colt Navy up for me that is a damn fine shooter now. Didn't know you were on this forum! :)

Aguila Blanca, yes I know what the black powder frame is, and I want one. :D

Does anyone know if the Cimarron old model comes WITHOUT the hammer block safety? This model: http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/ca...model-p-5-1-2-45-lc-5-1-2-in-model-mp513.html

I would prefer that it didn't have the modern safety... again I'm going for total 100% authenticity to a true early version SAA, or as close as I can possibly get. Really I'm going for about an 1875 dated gun because (correct me if I'm wrong) that is the year this 5 1/2" barrel came out? If so then I'd like all the other features and construction of the gun to match one of that vintage.

Also, how authentic is this Cimarron gun in terms of finish? I plan to get the standard bluing job. Did they originally come this way, also with the case hardened frame? Where the wood grips of the same appearance as this Cimarron model?

Thanks again all, this is really fascinating stuff and though I've tried to find as much info as I can I've come up short.
 
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The model numbers I listed for the Cimarron guns is what's called the black powder frame.
Mine came with two different screws that can be used to retain the cylinder base pin, I use the screw that fits flush in the frame.

My gun has no transfer bar safety like some models have.
The finish on my gun is very excellent bluing, a color case hardened frame and the one piece Walnut grip.

The only bluing wear my gun shows is a little at the very end of the barrel and a little wear on the grip frame by the trigger where my finger rubs.
As much as my gun has been in and out of a holster along with 7000 rounds of ammo shot through it the little bit of bluing wear is what I consider normal.

It has yet to develop a turn line on the cylinder, to me this says a lot about the fitting of the gun.
As a matter of fact I was so impressed with the fit and finish on mine that I immediately decided I would be purchasing more Cimarron Uberti revolvers.

By the way mine came with a 2 1/2 pound trigger pull that's as clean and crisp as any custom tuned trigger pull that I've ever shot, this was right out of the box.

Cimarron also sells Pietta revolvers but I prefer the Uberti guns, the model numbers I listed are for Uberti guns at Cimarron.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
 
Just for the record, Uberti Single Actions are found with either one of two types of safeties, the hammer block, and the Swiss Safe. Each can be removed by replacing the part, the hammer or the base pin. Each are readily available, and usually require no fitting.

Bob Wright
 
Okay thank you, so if I got with the Cimarron MP513 I will have to change the hand spring to a leaf type, and also the mainspring which is a Wolf spring as it comes.

I will also have to disable the Swiss safety because like Hunter Customs said, this model doesn't come with a hammer safety.

So now I will have to research what the Swiss safety entails and how to remove it! :)

Thanks guys I really feel like I'm zeroing in on this project, going to buy/make exactly what I want.

One quick question: is the wood finish on the Cimarron MP513 and other old model Ps the same appearance as the ones Colt made in the early 1870s? I understand the bluing and case hardening are period correct, but not sure if I should try and refinish the wood grips or not if I get that gun.
 
So now I will have to research what the Swiss safety entails and how to remove it!

I believe what's being referred to as the Swiss safety is the extra notch on the cylinder base pin.

The base pin has two notches along with the pin being long enough to block the hammer when the retaining screw is placed in the forward notch.

The easiest fix is to shorten the base pin so it will no longer block the hammer, then use the forward notch to retain the base pin.
This should not be difficult to do with a file, or if you have access to a metal lathe it would be a breeze.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
 
I'd also recommend you look at the different Pietta revolvers. The version sold by EMF as the Great Western II Californian is a pretty faithful clone.

Pietta makes other variants with features like transfer bar ignition or longer grip frames so watch the specs.
 
Howdy

Curious as to where you got that date of 1875 regarding 5 1/2" barrels?

The best I have been able to come up with is that barrels other than 7 1/2" were relatively rare for early Colts. Kopec makes reference to a shipment to a dealer in London which lists some 5 1/2" barreled models, but he also says, 'in this chapter's serial number range (1-30000), original barrels shorter than 7 1/2 inches are unusual'. As far as I know, the 5 1/2' barrel became popular with the so called 'Artillery Models'. Artillery Model is a collector's term, not an official Colt designation. During the period from about 1895-1903 a number of well worn 7 1/2" military Colts that had been in use by the Army for some 20 years were returned to the Colt factory and the Springfield Armory for refurbishing. Because of extreme wear at the muzzle, many of these guns had their 7 1/2" barrels cut down to 5 1/2". Many of these newly refurbished guns, most of which had mismatched parts, were issued to artillery units, hence the name. Coincidentally, many of these guns saw use in Cuba during the Spanish American War.


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Don't get too hung up on this business of buying 'total 100% authenticity to a true early version SAA'. The last thing you want to do is to be proudly showing off your new purchase to one of your pals at the range, and have him inform you that some particular feature is incorrect for the date you are trying to portray. You might want to buy a few books and read up about the old Colts, rather than relying on what you may find on the internet. That applies to my advice too. Another great source of information is attending a large gunshow where collectors have some originals for sale. Many true collectors are very friendly and do not mind you handling their treasures. Of course, ask permission before you cock the hammer, and NEVER drop the hammer on an antique that does not belong to you. Handling the originals and asking questions is a great way to start to understand some of the subtle differences between the originals and the current replicas.

The truth is, the SAA underwent numerous minor design changes almost from Day One, so being 100% authentic to the originals is just about impossible. Nobody is producing a copy of the early 'pinched frame' Colts today. USFA used to make one, but they are no longer in the business of making replicas of the SAA. Nobody is producing any replicas today with the early conical style firing pin, the 1st Generation cylinder ratchet teeth shape or the hand style that went with it, which would have been in the early gun you are seeking to replicate. Another thing to check out is a lot of the imports are being made today with a coil spring and plunger for the hand, instead of the original leaf type spring. The coil spring sits in the left screw hole next to the hammer, underneath the grip screw. The old leaf style hand spring was one of the springs that often broke on a SAA, so many modern replicas are being made with the coil spring today. And no, you cannot substitute a leaf spring for the coil spring, without cutting a slot into the hand to receive the spring.

Regarding the hammer block safety or the double groove cylinder pin, it is a requirement of the US government that single action revolvers imported from other countries have some sort of safety device to prevent discharge if the hammer is accidentally struck with a live round under the hammer. So anything you buy today that has been imported will have one or the other types of hammer blocks in them. The double groove cylinder pin is the easiest to alter, you can either grind off the rear of the pin, or replace it with an after market pin like the ones made by Belt Mountain. Grinding the rear of the pin off is the standard solution in CAS circles, I think you would spend a week trying to worry it off with a file. I have Belt Mountain pins in several of my Single Action Armies and the one Cimarron Cattleman that I still own. Luckily, domestically produced single action revolvers are not required to have such a safety device in them.

One quick question: is the wood finish on the Cimarron MP513 and other old model Ps the same appearance as the ones Colt made in the early 1870s? I understand the bluing and case hardening are period correct, but not sure if I should try and refinish the wood grips or not if I get that gun.

The one piece wood grips that come on most of these guns are a pretty good representation of the grips on the originals. They are fit the same way the originals were, by sanding and grinding the wood in place on the backstrap, so both the wood and the backstrap will be flush to each other. Because of this, one piece wooden grips both today and in the old days were custom fit to each other, and may not fit so well to a different gun. The wood the Italians are using is European Walnut, a slightly different species than the American Black Walnut that American gun makers were using. It is slightly less dense, and tends to be not quite so dark as American Black Walnut. The Europeans often put a stain on their wood that makes it a bit redder than typical American stocks. Now I am not 100% sure of this, but I believe the originals had a rubbed oil finish, rather than the relatively heavy coat of varnish or lacquer that the Europeans are using. That gets to cost, it is cheaper to spray on a surface finish than to hand rub an oil finish.

Other than nickel plating, the standard finish for the SAA was old fashioned bone Case Hardening on the frame, and hammer, with the balance of the gun being blue. The very early SAAs had malleable iron frames and cylinders, not steel. The Italians make a good effort at reproducing the colors of true bone Case Hardening, but if you hold them next to a quality Case Hardening job by Turnbull you will see that despite how brilliant the colors can be on the Italian guns, they usually appear rather blotchy.

The blued finish you get on the Italian imports is a tougher, more robust finish than the blues applied during the 19th Century. I used to have a Cimarron/Uberti Cattleman that sported their Charcoal Blue finish. Absolutely beautiful to look at, but not robust at all. After just one year of CAS, the salt and sweat of my palm had completely worn away the blue off of the backstrap and reduced it to gunmetal gray. Modern blues are chemically different than the 19th Century blues and are much more robust. It takes more than that to rub them off.

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/cartridge-revolvers/finish-options-hand-guns-1.html


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Wolff makes a large variety of springs.
http://www.gunsprings.com/

Many guys in CAS substitute Wolff reduced strength springs in their guns because the lighter springs, together with a quality action job, make for a more finely tuned gun. I have a 2nd Gen Colt that came with a mainspring that could have substituted for a suspension spring on a Mack truck. It has a Wolff mainspring in it now, in addition to a quality action job by a great SAA gunsmith. It is like a Swiss watch now. I have a 1st Gen Bisley Colt that still has its original 'Mack Truck' mainspring in it because I do not want to mess with its original configuration. The reason for the wire combination bolt/trigger springs is that, just like the hand spring, the old leaf style trigger/bolt springs were prone to breaking. It has to do with how stress risers are created in the spring as it flexes many, many times. Springs made of wire are virtually indestructible, they almost never break. I did have a wire trigger/bolt spring in that 2nd Gen Colt, but I took it out because it reduced the trigger pull more than I wanted.

Here is what a broken trigger/bolt spring looks like. The spring at the top of the photo is a spring from one of my 2nd Gen Colts, and is typical of the way they tend to break, right across the base of one of the legs. Not saying they break all the time, but they do break sometimes. Wire trigger/bolt springs never break.

brokenspringandbolt.jpg


The part at the bottom of the photo is a broken 2nd Gen bolt. Broke right at the point of most stress, right across the screw pivot hole. Breakage of this part is much less frequent than the flat springs, but it can happen. Yes, Uberti bolts are made basically the same as a Colt bolt and it is possible for them to break too. But take heart, I have never heard of the leaf mainspring breaking on either a SAA or clone.
 
Driftwood Johnson: thank you so much for that very detailed post! I learned a great deal from it!

I believe I was reading a Mike Venturino article about the SAA where he said the 5 1/2" barrel was released in 1875 or 1876 but I could easily be wrong.

I am used to cap and ball revolvers so leaf springs breaking are not news to me. I will try and get a leaf style hand spring installed in the gun I get... still doing my research and am open to lots of options but I'm leaning toward the Cimarron old model P... not sure of the bbl length. I will choose the 5 1/2" if it is historically correct, if not I will get the 7 1/2" one. That's the barrel length Marshall Dillon carried and as a matter of fact my father named me after him so it would work out swell, and I like long barrel revolvers too!
 
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