More than one Attacker...
- Thread starter mav88
- Start date
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Good, we all agree that we all agree.
Let's not fight over our agreement.
Let's not fight over our agreement.
David Armstrong
Moderator
Like Glenn said, we shoot CoM because that is the easiest to hit. If someone is partly behind cover, we shoot CoM of what is available. Let's be honest, as you say it. If pulling out the gun and yellin "BOO!" loudly stops the BGs threat, that is all we are after (or should be all we are after). Whether the BG lives, dies, or colors his hair green should be totally irrelevant to us in a CCW DGU incident.
My 2c worth
Shooting and wounding someone can lead to you paying the victims medical bills for a very long time if you are proven in court to have been in the wrong
Drawing your gun might deter him if you feel you really are in serious danger, planting a shot in the lawn in his general direction would make him think twice (very quickly) and also draw neighbours attention to your plight and also give you possible witnesses to say that you did warn him verbally, and fired a warning shot, in case things get UGLY
Trouble is, hoodlums like that knowing you are armed, might attract their retaliation at a later date, and they might come armed next time, to show you a thing or 2
IMO, showing your hand "gun" I believe is the last (but not too late) thing you should do. Probably you should have made sure your Gf got to the door and opened it safely, then you follow, lock the door and call the cops
However, I wasnt there, so what would I know?
Glad you were ok & it worked out ok 4U
Muzza
Shooting and wounding someone can lead to you paying the victims medical bills for a very long time if you are proven in court to have been in the wrong
Drawing your gun might deter him if you feel you really are in serious danger, planting a shot in the lawn in his general direction would make him think twice (very quickly) and also draw neighbours attention to your plight and also give you possible witnesses to say that you did warn him verbally, and fired a warning shot, in case things get UGLY
Trouble is, hoodlums like that knowing you are armed, might attract their retaliation at a later date, and they might come armed next time, to show you a thing or 2
IMO, showing your hand "gun" I believe is the last (but not too late) thing you should do. Probably you should have made sure your Gf got to the door and opened it safely, then you follow, lock the door and call the cops
However, I wasnt there, so what would I know?
Glad you were ok & it worked out ok 4U
Muzza
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
No one really knows what effect a shot will have when they let off the round.
The position is that we let off the round or rounds to stop the bad thing that is happening. I don't mean to overinterpret but it is a fault of Internet debates to assume that a fired round will be a decisive stopper or even killer.
If one claims that, then it is bravado or ignorance of the effects of the typical firearm and their interaction with performance variables under stress.
Also claiming that you wish to kill as compared to stop does increase your potential liability in an ambiguous shoot or if the DA wants to make a test case of you.
The position is that we let off the round or rounds to stop the bad thing that is happening. I don't mean to overinterpret but it is a fault of Internet debates to assume that a fired round will be a decisive stopper or even killer.
If one claims that, then it is bravado or ignorance of the effects of the typical firearm and their interaction with performance variables under stress.
Also claiming that you wish to kill as compared to stop does increase your potential liability in an ambiguous shoot or if the DA wants to make a test case of you.
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scottaschultz
New member
Yes, but as a veteran LEO, I am sure you have had many more hours of training specifically geared towards handling these situations than most civilians. Plus I am assuming (which is a very dangerous thing to do!) that you have had some sort of psychological screening that demonstrates you are fit to carry, something civilians are not required to do before buying a firearm and frankly, sometimes that scares me... A LOT!
And I agree that if you ever are in a situation where you draw your weapon, you are certainly not obligated to discharge it. I guess my less-than-subtle point was that if you just want to subdue an aggressor, use something like pepper spray. This may be a "Well duh!" comment, but a hand gun of any caliber is a lethal weapon and you should be prepared for the very real possibility that discharging it in the general direction of something or someone can lead the its destruction. In the case of a living creature, that means killing it. There is no way to sugar-coat that.
No matter how much you train at the range, most of us are not good enough to shoot to simply wound or subdue, especially under an extremely high stress situation when you may only have a fraction of a second to make you choice.
Scott
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skydiver3346
New member
What would I do in this situation?
To each his own I think, as it would depend on what was actually happening at any particular moment of this confrontation.
Bottom line, you have the right to come home to your residence at anytime you so desire. You and your girlfriend should not be intimidated or worry about being mugged, or worse by a bunch of scum bags like you describe.
This is what I feel I would do in this situation:
1. If carrying a weapon, it is your duty to retreat as far as you can from any danger. You are now in your own yard. Don't discuss anything with them anymore and no threats, etc. Try and enter your home where you can call 911 immediately. If you are trying to enter your home and you are still being threatened or they block you from entering your home, then this is a completely diferrent situation
2. Tell them in a firm and louder voice to remove themselves from your property immediately and continue to try and enter your home.
3. If it continues to escalate to the point that your fear for your life and/or your companion's life, I would place my hand on my gun (in my pocket) and inform the intruders that you will use force if needed to defend yourself and that they are making you feel threatened. Leave now or else........
4. If they continue to come at me, I pull my weapon (not aiming at him at this time) and let them see your intentions.
5. If he or others in the group still close the distance anyway, then at that point you have done all you can. Time to take aim and pull the trigger!
Bottom line, is all this can be done pretty quick (just seconds) but you need to have some sort of sequence of events to explain to the authorities that you tried to retreat but they would not let you. That you did everything you could to prevent this "unfortunate" circumstance but that you were in fear for your life. Of course its easy for me or others to say what they would do in a situation like this but I believe that I would follow this sequence.
To each his own I think, as it would depend on what was actually happening at any particular moment of this confrontation.
Bottom line, you have the right to come home to your residence at anytime you so desire. You and your girlfriend should not be intimidated or worry about being mugged, or worse by a bunch of scum bags like you describe.
This is what I feel I would do in this situation:
1. If carrying a weapon, it is your duty to retreat as far as you can from any danger. You are now in your own yard. Don't discuss anything with them anymore and no threats, etc. Try and enter your home where you can call 911 immediately. If you are trying to enter your home and you are still being threatened or they block you from entering your home, then this is a completely diferrent situation
2. Tell them in a firm and louder voice to remove themselves from your property immediately and continue to try and enter your home.
3. If it continues to escalate to the point that your fear for your life and/or your companion's life, I would place my hand on my gun (in my pocket) and inform the intruders that you will use force if needed to defend yourself and that they are making you feel threatened. Leave now or else........
4. If they continue to come at me, I pull my weapon (not aiming at him at this time) and let them see your intentions.
5. If he or others in the group still close the distance anyway, then at that point you have done all you can. Time to take aim and pull the trigger!
Bottom line, is all this can be done pretty quick (just seconds) but you need to have some sort of sequence of events to explain to the authorities that you tried to retreat but they would not let you. That you did everything you could to prevent this "unfortunate" circumstance but that you were in fear for your life. Of course its easy for me or others to say what they would do in a situation like this but I believe that I would follow this sequence.
I'll add one bit of advice, if 4 BG's are walking in front of my house as I pull up in my car, it might make better sense to drive around the block once or wait in a running car to see what they are doing etc. If they are standing on my front yard waiting for me to exit my car, I'd call police, and drive down the block and wait for the police. Situational awareness- four against one ain't good odds. I'm not knocking what you did, but if you could have avoided the confrontation, that would have been the best move.
LoneWolf22056
Moderator
If it were me, I would've walked past the entryway, and crop dusted them with the most vile fart I could muster. It's the universal crowd dispersant!
J/K
I live in orlando (which has a fairly high crime rate) and I have people asking me for money all the time. Rather than answering them and making it a personalized confrontation, just don't answer at all. Keep walking. If they touch you or otherwise physically contact you, begin the implement of force. All I need here in FL is to feel a threat. If it's just a beggar asking for money, they'll likely realize that you're not interested and they'll start looking for someone else to ask. If it's someone who wants to take your belongings by force, they'll be persistent.
You might say that this is an overreaction. In my case, I do not think so. I'm a big man, and a normal beggar looking for change is not going to press the issue out of self preservation. If someone really intends to do me harm, they aren't going to say a word, they're just going to spring on me. So that's how I prepare. Anyone risking physical injury by laying hands on me is not somebody who wants my change. They want to cause me physical harm.
J/K
I live in orlando (which has a fairly high crime rate) and I have people asking me for money all the time. Rather than answering them and making it a personalized confrontation, just don't answer at all. Keep walking. If they touch you or otherwise physically contact you, begin the implement of force. All I need here in FL is to feel a threat. If it's just a beggar asking for money, they'll likely realize that you're not interested and they'll start looking for someone else to ask. If it's someone who wants to take your belongings by force, they'll be persistent.
You might say that this is an overreaction. In my case, I do not think so. I'm a big man, and a normal beggar looking for change is not going to press the issue out of self preservation. If someone really intends to do me harm, they aren't going to say a word, they're just going to spring on me. So that's how I prepare. Anyone risking physical injury by laying hands on me is not somebody who wants my change. They want to cause me physical harm.
These are just my thoughts, right or wrong, just an average guy.
Quote: "Also claiming that you wish to kill as compared to stop does increase your potential liability in an ambiguous shoot or if the DA wants to make a test case of you."
Very True !
Well, here lies the magic sentence that we all agree on. Now lets not confuse it with "Mind-Set" of the shooter/defender/YOU. If someone or something requires you to use deadly force to stop the life-threat, YOU had better enter that encounter committed to the fact that "Killing" may be the only way to win.
You can rest assurred that the BG is there to hurt/kill YOU; I will not press the "pause button" on him; I will not allow him to "tap-out" when his plan fails. He will never be a threat to my family or yours ever again.
Quote: "Also claiming that you wish to kill as compared to stop does increase your potential liability in an ambiguous shoot or if the DA wants to make a test case of you."
Very True !
Well
, here lies the magic sentence that we all agree on. Now lets not confuse it with "Mind-Set" of the shooter/defender/YOU. If someone or something requires you to use deadly force to stop the life-threat, YOU had better enter that encounter committed to the fact that "Killing" may be the only way to win. You can rest assurred that the BG is there to hurt/kill YOU; I will not press the "pause button" on him; I will not allow him to "tap-out" when his plan fails. He will never be a threat to my family or yours ever again.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
That is called the question - you must be willing to take an action that has a real chance of lethality. That is different than stating you 'want' a lethal outcome.
What does 'tap-out' mean? You shoot the COM shot and the BG falls but is still breathing, or is still standing and assumes a surrender position - are you going to continue firing?
One continues to fire until the threat ceases being a threat. Subtle isn't it?
Saying you don't want him to be a threat again - are you saying you will continue to fire at an obviously surrendering opponent?
What does 'tap-out' mean? You shoot the COM shot and the BG falls but is still breathing, or is still standing and assumes a surrender position - are you going to continue firing?
One continues to fire until the threat ceases being a threat. Subtle isn't it?
Saying you don't want him to be a threat again - are you saying you will continue to fire at an obviously surrendering opponent?
Quote: "Saying you don't want him to be a threat again - are you saying you will continue to fire at an obviously surrendering opponent?"
Glenn,
No that is not what I said. Will I answer this question( on open forum) any more specific than I have, NO I won't.
"Surrendering" was your choice of words, Glenn.
Glenn,
No that is not what I said. Will I answer this question( on open forum) any more specific than I have, NO I won't.
"Surrendering" was your choice of words, Glenn.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
The point is that bad guys kill people on purpose. Good people don't.
Defending yourself may or may not result in the death of the other party. I might have to shoot him in the head. I still am not trying to kill him. Will it kill? Probably, but that's NOT the point.
The point is that his death is NOT the goal.
I DO NOT kill on purpose. That's the point.