More practical than a bug, pepper spray/mace

I had a policeman I know demonstrate what to do, but you have a good point. I should consider asking if the people I'll be taking my handgun classes from know of somewhere to get training for this. His main point is that you can't just spray away and hope to disable an attacker -- you have to go for eyes, nose, open mouth. He recommended spraying forehead and eyebrows if your attacker is wearing glasses because it will drip down into his eyes.

But I could definitely use some more pointers.
 
*That* is what I don't think I need, but do think other people might need -- especially people whose job it is to go into harms way deliberately instead of avoiding it wherever possible.
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Perhaps, but most lethal force encounters involve people who never had an intent to go deliberatly into harm's way, but found themselves there anyway. Obviously, one assumes more risk if it's a deliberate habit.
 
MLeake said:
But without a chance to try the stuff out, see how it patterns, what the range would be from the type cannister I might carry, etc, I don't know that I'd carry it.

Where would one train to use pepper spray?
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That's an excellent question, and worth a thread of its own (that's a hint ;) ).

Most good pepper spray companies offer inert "trainers" for their spray -- that will typically be a vegetable dye driven by the same propellants as their pepper sprays, in the same size cans etc -- so that you can ask and answer those types of questions without necessarily getting exposed to the spray yourself.

A lot of firearms schools also offer pepper spray classes, and I'd really recommend taking one if you're going to carry the stuff. Also check out your local cop shop; chances are good that you can find a police department which either offers OC classes through a "citizen's academy", or which will allow you to sit in on that portion of their training. Such classes typically offer students the opportunity to get sprayed with OC themselves, to see how they react -- and I'd highly recommend doing that if you're going to carry it. If you do not know how your body responds to the stuff, you'll be at a significant personal disadvantage if you ever need to use it, since it's pretty much a given that you'll be exposed to it when you use it. Best to know what to expect and how to cope with it.

More here: www.corneredcat.com/Gear/pepperspray.aspx Hope it helps.

pax
 
Such classes typically offer students the opportunity to get sprayed with OC themselves, to see how they react -- and I'd highly recommend doing that if you're going to carry it.
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Excellent advice. However I'd also like to post an IMPORTANT SAFETY NOTE

DO NOT try spraying yourself at home to see what it's like. Odds are you'll have an unpleasant event and that will be all, but there is a small chance that you could be one of those "highly reactive" folks so for your own safety you absolutely should not spray yourself or be exposed without proper medical personnel available on site.
 
Haven't been exposed to pepper spray, per se...

... but did get locked in a CS gas chamber during one portion of training, years ago...

Picture a bunch of guys, afterward, in the back of a 2.5 ton truck, hanging heads over the rails to get our faces in the breeze, trying to flush our eyes, as lines of tears and snot flew back behind us.

Picture, too, the laughter of the gunny and the staff sergeant from the cab of the truck...

It wasn't really that bad, in the sense that breathing and vision returned to normal within ten minutes or so. While it was never truly disabling, I am pretty sure I could not have chased anybody down during that timeframe.

Not sure how the new stuff is, but if I ever do try it out, I'll wear something I don't mind getting quite dirty.
 
I see no reason for a BUG so therefore no need for spray.


I would carry it if I was a postman or door to door kinda work.
 
Civilians are NOT obligated (as police officers may be) to follow the force continuum doctrine, to do what police officers do. period.
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It is true that civilians do not have the duty to apprehend a suspect, or to restrain someone who is acting dangerously. Sworn officers have that duty and must do so without using deadly force except under dire circumstances. Hence, the continuum of force concept is an essential part of their strategy, and they thus carry tasers and the like. They cannot just go away unless they themselves are under attack. That's not what we pay them for.

Civilians, on the other hand, usually have only the responsibility to defend themselves or persons with them; they do not need to subdue or sequester anyone. If they are not under immediate attack themselves, they can and usually must just go away. (There some exceptions involving prevention of serious felonies in some jurisdictions).

That does not mean that civilians can jump immediately to the use of deadly force when a threat presents itself.

It even may be more dangerous for them to do so .... e.g., drawing pepper spray when an assailant, who approaches, may have a knife or blunt instrument, is an example that comes to mind.
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I don't think I agree. If the assailant does in fact have the ability and opportunity and puts a defender in jeopardy, and deadly force is immediately necessary. that's one thing. But unless size, numbers, or infirmity create a disparity of force, I think that the idea that a person "may have" a blunt instrument or knife might not meet the threshold.

Of course, everything will depend on how things turn out. Shoot someone who appeared dangerous but who turned out to be unarmed and the folks assigned to determine after the fact whether your fear had been reasonable may decide that it was not.

I can, however, conceive of situations in which the use of an effective less than lethal force option may be indicated if the defender reasonably believes that serious danger is immediately present but cannot know whether the A.O.J threshold is met.

Lay opinion.
 
Remember The Boy Scout Motto "Be Prepared" and The Coast Guard Motto Semper Paratus (Latin, "Always Ready")

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It doesn't cost or weigh that much to possibly save your life or your loved ones.
 
Oldmarksman: I can see your point. I've carried OC, before. Just know its limitations as reasonable non-deadly force against assailants, who may or may not be able to close the distance and make contact with a deadly weapon, before you can 'beat feet'.

Depending on the circumstances, I do treat people whose hands are unaccounted for, with extreme caution, however. And, as I mentioned in the earlier post, reasonable fear of imminent threat of death or serious injury to one's self or a third party, is not evaluated from the perspective of 20/20 hindsight, e.g., from the fact of what the assailant 'actually' had in his pocket(s), but from the perspective of the defender, i.e., what the defender had reason to believe, at the time of the shoot. No need to further discuss this issue, not enough facts. But there's no doubt one would rather not have to have this argued in court, after an arrest, indictment, and the hiring of both a criminal defense attorney and a plaintiff's attorney (to sue the assailant/family).

OC instead of a BUG? Probably not. OC, in addition to a BUG? Maybe. Know your state/municipal laws regarding OC possession (as to capsacinoid content, and/or as to overall amount).

Asps/batons and knives are also alternatives, but those also require some research into their legality for concealed possession within the jurisdiction, not to mention the requirements of training to become proficient in their use.

BTW .... I've had plenty of encounters with homeless, belligerent drunks, and bat-poo crazy folk in my lifetime, and nearly all of them without serious incident or resort to the use of dangerous instrumentalities.

And I'm certainly not suggesting that because one decides to carry a BUG, and decides, further, to leave the spray out of his/her kit, that he/she is out looking for people to shoot when they don't comply with orders to keep their distance. Not enough facts, so I'm not going to generalize.

Do what you need to do to be prepared.
 
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Actually, I don't carry the spray but it wouldn't be a bad idea. Certainly not saying one couldn't carry both a bug and the spray - but we have to make compromises. Any thoughts?
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I always have a small canister of Fox labs in my pocket. I
think it's always good to have other tools in the toolbox.
Say it's a drunk getting out of hand..you don't need lethal
force here.

Pepper spray is just another tool in the toolbox. If all
you have is a hammer then everything will look like
a nail :D
 
I had to spray three dogs while biking one day ,the spray was very effective in stopping the dogs. I wouldn't had shot the dogs if I had no spray unless they had already chomped me.

I believe pepper spray is a very effective tool for self defense and bugs are unnecessary. Well, that depends on what your job is. :)
 
I carry spray because it gives me an economic advantage in self defense. The use of a firearm in CA is very likely to result in a lawsuit. These are crushing to the spirit and to the bank account. If it is possible to escape unharmed cheaply then I would do it. In some cases nothing but a gun will suffice, but most cops use the pepper spray frequently and seldom fire the gun.
I also think it is important to get past the idea that you are going to teach someone a lesson, or right a wrong. There is little justice in this sweet world of ours and it is not your place to press justice on the street. If you get into a gunfight you will wind up broke, lonely and angry. That is probably how the street criminal feels at the time of the attack. Many of these criminals go virtually unpunished in the court system. Killing one bad guy won't help in the long run (it might help you survive another day).
There is a small town nearby with a population of 51,000 and 900 of them are gang members. Many are third generation in the gang. If you use pepper spray or a gun you might live another day but the pepper spray is cheaper. 899 gang members remain!
 
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