Moral chaos in Central Park, part 2.

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LawDog

Staff Emeritus
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Lawdog....I don't know whether its a Lawdog thing.....or a Texas thing.....but even though you are paid to serve and protect....what would it take for you to realize you are outgunned...or outnumbered...and just hunker down and wait for backup? How do YOU differenciate between foolhardiness and effective police tactics?[/quote]

It's a family thing. :)

As The Colonel says, "You're only outgunned if you miss."

Foolhardiness, to me, is that which causes or allows an innocent to be killed or seriously injured.

If you keep the damage you inflict minimal and restrict it to the critter side of the books, then you've used pretty good police tactics.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm curious for our LEOs, if you were standing with a group (including yourself) of 4 officers and saw a mob of 100 or so doing this, what would you do?

Clubs, OC, command shouts - what?[/quote]

Form a wedge and move into the crowd. Designate one rear officer to be the gun person. He/She stays in the centre of your wedge and prepares to shoot any critter who developes a streak of stupid. Look each critter in the eye as you meet him, use strong and firm vocal commands to part the crowd. Anyone who doesn't move quick enough should be shouldered aside. Anyone who shows signs of moving on the officers gets himself and anyone standing near him a dose of OC. If he decides to move on the officers with any kind of weapon, he gets centered by the gun officer.

Once you get to the site of the assault, two officers pull the victim into the centre of the group, while the other two officers liberally spray the area with OC. The victim stays close to the gun officer. Once you have the victim, anyone who isn't a gun officer extends and locks expandable batons and move out as quickly as the victims condition permits using the same path you used to come in.

LawDog


[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited July 11, 2000).]
 
That's a textbook 4 officer response.

As to what to do with only yourself:

Some could live with themselves merely witnessing the assault. I pray there are men of stouter stuff nearby, if ever a loved one of mine is in a nasty situation.
 
I pray I'm never in such a situation, and unless I am I can only state how I hope I'll react. As a non-LEO (and also old, slow, weak, & small) I wouldn't be quite as constrained with continuum of force issues as an LEO would be. Believe we'd step directly from verbal warning (with display of deadly force) to use of deadly force. I understand we're talking about a mob, but I can't help but think a couple of well-placed rounds would go far in defusing the mob mentality. Obviously this is a worst-case scenario, so it's really hard to say - I just pray I'll have the moral (& physical) courage to do something...

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"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
"Power corrupts. Absolute power - is kinda cool!"
Fred Reed

[This message has been edited by mk86fcc (edited July 11, 2000).]
 
Isn't it weird that the courage part isn't from dealing with the mob, it's from dealing with the prosecuter trying to paint you as a gun nut vigilante even though you may have saved lives by your actions ?
 
Quite a quandry this country has got itself into.
Anyone want to take bets that some guys who's girlfriends or wives were ravished in the park are now looking into some defense training? Would that they could have had the training/mindset before it happened.
The trend towards a childish dependence on someone else for what should be a basic personal duty sickens me. It seems the numbers of the warrior are in decline, which saddens me.
The decision is no longer simply whether one has the guts to do whats right, its whether one is willing to go to jail or be sued for it.

Come to think of it.. its still about guts.



[This message has been edited by Zensho (edited July 11, 2000).]
 
I don't believe in displays of lethal weaponry. Faced with a lethal threat, my weapon may be exposed, but only to lessen time to COM when the muzzle goes up. If the unfortunate recipient/recipient-to-be of an attack will survive the additional time to issue verbal warning, I will issue such warning to the perps (given distance and other factors). If I have no such time, no warning will be issued before lethal force initiation. And I will plan to sleep well that night, as I do every night, now.
 
I just finished reading all of part one, so I had some additional thoughts.

1) I consider myself a sensitive guy. So do most who know me. Would I stand by while innocents were raped? Never. I believe I would do my best to get police on the way before physical intervention, but I cannot see letting anyone- male or female- suffer such indignity and violence one instant longer, if I could stop it. Such sexism annoys me, and I would love to see one of several women I know step into the ring with this guy.

2) I have never been stomped or "beaten down" by a group, but my younger brother has. I know he would not have hesitated before diving into this particular issue. Even if it killed him. He's still young and adjusting to life, but I can say I'm damn proud that I know what his choice would be. I would be with him.

The attitudes from some- the "let's compare rape to domestic violence", or the "I wouldn't interfere, because it might have some negative impact on my life"- leave a bad taste in my mouth. Subjugation starts in the mind, and I can see some of you are conquered already.
 
Wow. THis thread has taken on a life of its own.

I dunno what I'd do. I like to think I'd jump right in, but that was NYC, and I'd go to prison for perhaps the rest of my life. My family would be destitute. If I look at the big picture (huge intoxicated ETHNIC crowd, in public, daylight, NYC, cops all over), I don't feel comfortable saying that I'd intervene.

Bummer.
 
There is some chance that the 4 officer response might work, assuming they had worked together previously in this type of scenario. The idea that any private citizen, even armed with a handgun, would have been able to accomplish anything by intervening is ridiculous. If you had an AR-15, several magazines, and were quite willing to immediately kill a number, let's say 3 or 4 minimum, of the thugs right off the bat, no warning or anything, then the odds of success go up. Grenades would be also be helpful.

Short of that, YOU WOULD FAIL. Without that level of weaponry and willingness, the best you could hope for would be that your wife would recognize the remains of your face while you were laying in the hospital. Don't even begin to believe that none of the thugs were armed, nor should you believe that you would be treated anywhere near as well as the women were.

As was mentioned in Part I of this thread, there were at least several dozen of those *******s. Many of them have spent more hours fighting on Rikers Island and the Pen than most of us have spent at work. Even if you're a real dojo ballerina, you're not any match for them, because they are used to fighting for real to keep from getting sodomized every day for months or years.

And if by some chance, you did whip out your trusty heater, kill a few of them, and run them off, what then? Do you think those women are going to come to your trial and tell the jury what a wonderful person you are? If you do, then you don't know New Yorkers very well. What would happen is that Guiliani's prosecutor would throw the book at you, win, and then you would get the experience level of the mob members who have spent all that time learning how to (hopefully) avoid getting sodomized every day for years. And then maybe at the end, you get to breathe the gas.

There's misdemeanor stupid, felony stupid, and capital stupid. Anything but calling 911 in this situation is one of them.
 
Good Evening Everyone-

As mentioned in Part I of the Moral Chaos in Central Park thread, it's my belief that Mr. X, EAF, and HeadHunter have proposed the most realistic, prudent, and truly effective ways of providing assistance in this nightmare scenario.

What is it with this misguided warrior sentiment of: I'll just run in there waving around my pistol to rescue the innocents, and if I die...I die proud stuff?

Please re-read your posts before clicking on the "Submit Reply" button and consider the hardships placed upon your collective wives, girlfriends, husbands, boyfriends, sons, daughters, nieces, nephews, friends, and other relatives. By jumping into the fray, you are selfishly committing suicide and leaving your friends and family to pick up the pieces.

My friends, there were dozens and dozens of street-hardened, prison-finished, sociopathic thugs in that mob who have no concept of "tomorrow." They would kill you with only the slightest provocation and then go out and have lunch without giving it a second thought. These animals do not go to work each Monday morning as bank tellers, computer programmers, automobile mechanics, or plumbers repairing leaky pipes.

These are dangerous people who hone their mayhem-making skills everyday at the expense of society.

HeadHunter is right on the money with the response from the government authorities, too. If you went in there with your trusty Glock, the next thing the women would report is that they "Looked up to see a man with a large, scary black gun with a crazed look in his eyes running straight at me! We were only messing around with those guys until this nut came along."

As sure as God made apples, the prosecutors would find every law on the book with which to charge you. Prosecutors don't make a career out of winning cases against dirtbags who everyone knows belong in jail. They wait (salivating) to try a case against a "gun-wielding, mass-murderer-to-be who came in from Scarsdale looking to kill Puerto Rican nationals celebrating their heritage." It gets press, sells newspapers, and places a spotlight on people. You wouldn't be labeled a hero, you would be labeled a "kook."

Do the right thing:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> Assume a defensive position and unsnap the thumbreak on your holster. Be ready and able to move.
<LI> Call 9-1-1 and shout for help.
<LI> Concentrate on being a good witness. Open your eyes and ears and remember everything possible.
<LI> Give the best police report of your entire life.</UL>

Beyond that, you're setting yourself up for your own homicide. That's something we DON'T want to read about on TFL someday.

Regards to all,

~ Blue Jays ~


[This message has been edited by Blue Jays (edited July 12, 2000).]
 
As to the idea that all criminals/ex cons are walking death I would have to say that just isn't so.

Many do develope an effective mindset. But few of them have extensive knowledge of fighting, they are more used to hunting/ambushing people than fighting them.

I have worked with and supervised ex cons on my second job...and talked to them about fighting. Attitude seems to be the most important thing.
 
Blue Jays, that is a well thought and completely rational post.

Unfortunately, I couldn't do it.

I know you stated, "consider the hardships placed upon your collective wives, girlfriends, husbands, boyfriends, sons, daughters, nieces, nephews, friends, and other relatives", but I also say consider the hardships I would have living with myself if I did not render assistance.

The cost of doing nothing would be my very soul.

These victims are our fellow man and neighbors - and what these criminals are doing is just plain wrong. Isn't that enough reason to help?

CMOS

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NRA? Good. Now join the GOA!

The NRA is our shield, the GOA will be our sword.
 
This is real close the blazing Futile Noble Gesture debate on Glocktalk based on an article by a friend of mine.

Do you die or become seriously injured when you cannot affect the outcome?

Blue is on the money. CMOS expresses the affective helplessnes of when your cognitions tell you that you have to not do it.

How about this take?

You arrive at a house in flames. The Dad staggers out with some kids. Looking around,
he says: Oh, my - my other kid is in there.

The house is now totally engulfed. He starts towards the door.

Do you grab in or let him charge in?

It's the same in a sense.

He might get to the kid - odds are he dies
horribly and orphans the survivors.

You see the mob. You might plunge in.
I don't think we approve of shooting your way from the periphery - do we?

When you plunge in - they might all flee your single righteous wrath or they might whoop you.

So does the cognition override the emotion and you deal with the PTSD later?

Great posts in this latest stream!
 
Truly surprising, especially here. I could almost understand some forum members saying they would opt to stay out of a situation they didn't understand and call 911 (maybe that other woman you dont have a clue about would rather be lightly ravished than have you play hero and make it worse!) But if it was your wife, girlfriend, or a woman you knew? say it isn't so :(
 
Is the is situation better with:

1. The victim asaulted
2. The victim assaulted and you are dead or
injured also.

It's a complex debate and not one for just an emotional response.

Bummer, isn't it?
 
It's all taking on a "Kobiashi Maru" (sp?) quality...

------------------
"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
"Power corrupts. Absolute power - is kinda cool!"
Fred Reed
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMOS:
I know you stated, "consider the hardships placed upon your collective wives, girlfriends, husbands, boyfriends, sons, daughters, nieces, nephews, friends, and other relatives", but I also say consider the hardships I would have living with myself if I did not render assistance.

The cost of doing nothing would be my very soul.

[/quote]

Or look at it this way the victums are someone's loved ones...I would hope that if one of my sisters or what have you was being sexually assaulted in public that someone would help them.

The other thing is I don't believe that one against many is a absolute lost cause.Using a car or something drive them off or to effect extraction is certainly withing the realm of the possible. Or simple start eliminating goblins on the edge.

Since this was in NY I assumed I would not have a firearm to use in the first place.
 
Glenn E. Meyer, your example of the burning house is vastly different.

A father running back into a burning house has a made a personal chioce to re-enter.

The victim of a crime has none. We, in turn, also have a simple choice - to help or not.

CMOS

------------------
NRA? Good. Now join the GOA!

The NRA is our shield, the GOA will be our sword.
 
What are the laws in NYC on carrying OC or other type of irritant spray? The thread seems to be polarized between doing nothing or blazing away at everyone in sight. What other alternatives are there?
I realize that sprays don't always work but it could open enough room for you to duck in, grab the victim, and head for the horizon whistling the theme to Looney Tunes. I was wondering why none of the women involved were packing vermin spray... or were they? Help me out with this one. If I were a woman in NYC I would carry a big can of spray and a lighter. If the spray didn't look like it was working I'd light it and see if that improved its performance. Thoughts?


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Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules.Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt- Sun Tzu, The Art of War

[This message has been edited by Apple a Day (edited July 12, 2000).]
 
CMOS - huh.

What I was saying was that the father charging into a building may do no good for his loved ones. But emotion moves him to do it and perhaps die.

You charging into a crowd that can easily disarm and stop you is the same.

The victim of the fire or the crime has no choice. We are talking about intervention choice.

Would you stop someone from charging into the house? That is the same as us now saying to someone not to charge into the crowd.

Maybe I'm missing something, sorry.
 
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