Moral 3 - the debate rages on.

Okay, let's step back here a minute. I don't want this to degenerate any more than it has.

First, I don't think my initial post attacked you; I think it attacked your argument. It is not my intention to "attack" anyone, but if you feel attacked, I DO apologize for that.

Second, I did not generalize about the south. what I wrote, "where I come from, here in the south" refers to my little town and the people I grew up with. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Third, my criticism was not of critical thinking, but of the particular outcome of that process that you promoted. I'm a big fan of thinking, knowing, etc. No problem there!

Fourth and lastly, pertaining to your question about my "tactical" wisdom: Yes, it's valuable to think through scenarios, and learn from others' real world failures and successes. I've noticed, sadly, that there's a whole cult of folks completely infatuated with the term "tactical."

As far as the extent to which I would involve myself in those situations you mention, I think the general principle I espoused speaks for itself. Near as I can tell, most of the "tactical" possibilites have been thrown around ad infinitum, ad nauseum. It boils down to "fight, or not."

Then again, there's always "tactical insanity"...pull down your pants and start defecating on the offenders. Not very dignified, but could be effective under the right circumstances.

Course, I could always just chicken out, pull out my notebook, turn the whole thing into a study of mob mentality and pathology, and give the best police report ever.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>LawDog, Munro have either of you seen Gallipoli? Is there ever odds bad enough that you wouldn't charge head first into battle? Would you take on the looters in the LA/Watts riots single handedly?
Theres bravery, and theres ?[/quote]

I haven't seen the movie, although I hear it's rather good. I've read about it, though.

Take on the looters? No. Not over someones TV. On the other paw, if the looters start beating a truck driver over the head with bricks, or graduate to rape, I'll have to do something about it.

LawDog

[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited July 14, 2000).]
 
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil, is that good men do nothing.

How do you think this land became the shambles it is? Now imagine the signees of the Declaration of Independence didn't sign...because it was too risky. We'd be in even worse shape than we are currently...

Somewhere, if one is honest enough, one has to admit to mere rationalization instead of "noble inaction". Fine. Dither and whine. And, hope others have more moral fortitude than you, should you ever be caught in dire straits.
 
Lawdog, I can respect that. When it came to denny I also felt compeled to enter the fray though that might just have been emotion on my part, and a lot closer to home than some park on the other side of the country.Not to easy to figure out for me, still have to make up mind on issues like these. With family and friends it is an easy choice, with strangers it feels harder, I think law enforcement officers get used to helping people who dont give a damn about them, and get a little used to it, you got my respect.

Don, I think for the most part if you charged in and got beat down the majority of the crowd would use your beating as further justifying there lack of action. Though if you were lucky enough to have some of the fence sitters on this forum around you might provide the catalyst necessary to get them off the fence and come to help. It takes a lot of guts to be the first to charge in and I will be the first to admit that I am not 100% certain I would be the first to take on the whole crowd. I would assume no one would come to my aid, hence the hesitation. Were it 40 years ago I would be a lot less hesitant.
And I know this sounds contradictory on my part but it is the only way I can put into words my mixed view points on matters like this.

Damn I think the liberals have put a chip implant in me, I never used to view the world as shades of gray!


[This message has been edited by oberkommando (edited July 14, 2000).]
 
Glenn,

I personally do not have any beef with you.
The problem as I see it is that there are those who do not have the courage to fight for what they hold dear (you are specifically excluded from this group by your writings), and those who would give everything to protect those or that which they love.

The problem is that there are plenty of untested folks who are "sitting on the fence" and don't really know what they'd do. By making this silly fng concept accepted, we are in effect telling them that its ok to be a pusillanimous poltroon. We should promote heroism, not cowardice, as the example.

The cops in my story where decorated for restraint. Our silly chief, in his self-serving wisdom, made a statement some months before that he would never punish an officer for not shooting. They apparently took him at his word. They each got the medal of courage! How's that?!

Someone made the analogy about you against the Red Army. Well, not really much you can do there except sneak into their camp later and slit a few throats as they sleep. Things are rarely that simply slanted.

In my 15 years "downrange" a constant empirical( as in operator not administrator) finding keeps popping up. Those who surrender get abused, cooked, and eaten. Those who fight also sometimes get the bad end of things, but most often they do not.

As far as the jail thing, yeah maybe you go to jail for a little while...so what. There's plenty of worse things.

Now in terms of Mr. Armstrong, isn't it time that he stepped up and defended himself. You seem to be a level headed man, but your defense of Mr. A is getting a little silly.

You ask about challenging your world view. I disagree that this is a necessary thing. Some things are not up for discussion. Some examples: Drug Use, Perversion, Communism, Freedom, etc. If you don't beleive in it, stop bringing it up and let its designer fight for it.

Few of us on Glock Talk, The Firing Line, or many of the other Forums upon which this battle has been fought agree much less condone this notion. I'm sure he's very busy - big deal, so are we all. In the past two months I have been in four states teaching good people how to be violent against bad people. In the off-time on the planes, I've written a couple of business plans and another book. I however am never too busy to respond to this stuff.

Lets leave this siliiness alone. Bottom line - Its better to be a successful hero than successful coward. The final judgement will be yours.

Gabe Suarez
HALO GROUP www.thehalogroup.com
 
I agree with Mr. Suarez. Do the right thing. Which sometimes makes you rather uncomfortable, and too often very socially unacceptable. My neighbors back in the land of bad things never would talk to me afterwards. Alas, but oh well. Sometimes the lawyers will let you pay on the installment plan, so be of good cheer and stand fast. Stay safe.
 
Training and discussion
are secondary to
opportunity.

Stand fast like the grass.
Defense and justice are
separate roads to travel.
 
Good Morning Everyone-

Thank God it's Saturday! :)

Spectre, I can see where you're coming from in terms of the "slippery slope" where we all need to do our part to prevent the BGs from running the show.

Spectre posted July 14,2000 02:10 PM:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>All that is necessary for the triumph of evil, is that good men do nothing.

How do you think this land became the shambles it is? Now imagine the signees of the Declaration of Independence didn't sign...because it was too risky. We'd be in even worse shape than we are currently...

Somewhere, if one is honest enough, one has to admit to mere rationalization instead of "noble inaction". Fine. Dither and whine. And, hope others have more moral fortitude than you, should you ever be caught in dire straits.[/quote]

Does this mean that all the "Heroes of TFL" should move to South Central Los Angeles, Harlem, Compton, and Camden? There would be plenty of opportunity "to do the right thing" there and encourage people to live in harmony.

If one were to "jump in to help" everytime they saw something bad happening in those neighborhoods, it would become a game of probability and statistics before your "number comes up" and you wind up dead.

At this point, Glamdring posts this suggestion on July 14, 2000 12:36 PM:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As to tactics if you have a mob attacking an individual and you know the mob is not acting lawfully or morally (some places and times it is legal(huh? -- Blue Jays) to kill, rape, beat people because of their skin color, religion, etc I think that is wrong). But in that situation you have a great disparity of force which COULD (possibly) justify IMO the use of area effect weapons (molotov cocktails, IED's, etc.) or using vehicals or whatever.[/quote]

Joining a local chapter of the Guardian Angels would also be a kind gesture to mankind, but once we become proponents of driving vehicles through crowded parks while tossing Molotov Cocktails out the windows...we ain't heroes anymore.

My point is this, people who are forced to live, work, and play in these "less desirable" urban locales should not have to corner the market on heroism due to lack of economic flexibility.

Oberkommando, you're totally accurate in your assessment of the situation. It's a matter of splitting hairs and making the right decision for the moment.

Gabe, in this view, I get the notion that your viewpoint doesn't allow flexibility. It seems that a person is either heroic or a coward.

"If a coward lives alone on a desolate mountaintop, does anyone know he/she is a coward?"

Several posters advocate moving away from the source of the trouble. What are we to do about this situation?

Regards to all,

~ Blue Jays ~
 
OK, my last post on this issue.

Blue jay, you mention that there is no flexibility here on heroism or cowardice. Yep, you are quite correct. This is not anything earth-shattering, as there is no compromise on things like right & wrong, and a few other things.

Compromise of morals and beliefs, tolerance of the weakening of the culture, and the appeasement of those who support these things, are the curses of our society. They are the same things that ruined every single empire throughout history.

As far as the heroism/cowardice thing, only you can know for sure. Only you can live or die with your choices. Choose wisely...you can't recall the decission.

Gabe Suarez
HALO GROUP www.thehalogroup.com www.gabesuarez.com
 
I've tried to stay out of this, I think everyone either knows what they will do, or they will find out someday. It is inevitable that you will sometime, someplace, bear witness to something like this.

Just one little point, then back into lurk mode.

Mr Suarez, you stated a couple of posts back,

"As far as the jail thing, yeah maybe you go to jail for a little while...so what. There's plenty of worse things."

Well, a couple of *So Whats*

For one thing, unless you are just flat made out of money, that felony conviction is going to stick. No more civil rights, gone, done.
You are now a minion of the state, hopefully, and not of Federal Government, which is planned for all "crimes" involoving arms.
The "get tough on crime" folks have really upped the ante on this one. Once upon a time I would risk going to jail over such an issue, heck, once upon a time I *did* risk going to jail over such an issue, in fact I did go, for a few hours until I made bail. Came down to the sherrif's office on monday and got my weapon back, (before the trial) and the charges were dismissed as the judge chatted briefly to the state and the arresting officer and ruled self-defense comming to the aide of another. I didn't even have to speak my piece. That was then, this is now. Now you go down.

It's not the jail time, It's the felony conviction that hangs you. All rights stripped away.

It is a real deterrent.

back into lurk mode
 
Blue Jays,
You are overlooking one thing in your statement:
"If one were to "jump in to help" everytime they saw something bad happening in those neighborhoods, it would become a game of probability and statistics before your "number comes up" and you wind up dead."
Which would run out first, good guys or bad guys? If people got involved every time right from the start then how many of these situations would be prevented? How many of the cowardly turds in that mob would have joined in the festivities had the last several sets of perpetrators been carried off in buckets or spent the rest of their days crapping into a colostomy bag?
Do you think that this incident (and subsequent lack of penalties) increased or decreased the chances that it will happen again? Would the chances be different if angry citizens had stepped in and stopped them?
Ponder.

------------------
Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules.Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blue Jays:

At this point, Glamdring posts this suggestion on July 14, 2000 12:36 PM:

As to tactics if you have a mob attacking an individual and you know the mob is not acting lawfully or morally (some places and times it is legal(huh? -- Blue Jays) to kill, rape, beat people because of their skin color, religion, etc I think that is wrong).
~ Blue Jays ~
[/QUOTE]
Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant that certain ethnic or religious groups have been legal prey in various parts of the world. Or even in places like the US at certain times [Native Americans, Chinese, etc.]. And that women and children are still treated as "things" more than people in many ways [domestic abuse for example].
 
Good Evening Everyone-

Dog3, wow, what an interesting story. Glad to hear you made it back out into society without losing your sidearm and all the rights that we take for granted. You've painted a good picture of why it is so critical to determine when the exact moment has arrived that it is appropriate to intervene with a drawn firearm. Thank you for the realworld narrative.

Apple a Day, you make an excellent point that can be compared with the old saying, "The longest journey begins with a single step."

You're right, if the BGs could consider some of their friends who wound up in the hospital or the morgue, it might slow them down a bit. The text of your post was a bit more colorful though: :)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How many of the cowardly turds in that mob would have joined in the festivities had the last several sets of perpetrators been carried off in buckets or spent the rest of their days crapping into a colostomy bag?[/quote]

Here's the catch though: Let's say it is going to take 1,000,000 justified shootings to "make the world see the light" on the use of legally-owned firearms and their ability to prevent crime. In the current socio-political environment, does someone wish to be shooter #34 or do they prefer to be shooter #999,999?

Friends, we have to stay in the game to get people to see things from our perspective.

Anyone who wants to be on the edge of cutting-edge societal evolution, step right up and start shooting into mobs, swimming pools (remember that inner-city problem a few years ago?), late-night city streets, or anywhere where crime is detected/perceived.

It'll take a few years, we'll pay some high prices (perhaps even the ultimate price), but we'll accomplish our mission. Who wants to go first?

Thanks, but I'll continue to keep my pistol holstered until my family, my friends, or I am threatened. Too many variables otherwise.

Thanks for the insights. Regards to all,

~ Blue Jays ~
 
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