Moore on America

myopicmouse,
Maybe people should review some of the comments and not dismiss them out of hand just because it happens to be Moore saying them.
There's some truth to that. But it would be difficult for some of us, for some of the same reasons we remain ignorant about Europe's goings on, as a rule. Firstly, for many years now, I've pretty much read the same thing. It never changes and I don't agree with much of the politics over there. Secondly, if you have a Liberal Socialist society at it's root, and I know what that means, I'm pretty much demotivated to read and understand some more about it. It is predictable to nauseousness. Really.
But on the whole Americans remain ignorant on european matters, very ignorant and should probally take the time to read non-American litriture - In europe it is true for Moore to say that Americans are a running joke, and have been for many decades.
Most Americans remain ignorant on American matters. For that matter, most Europeans are ignorant on European matters. I assume we are talking about political matters? What if it turned out, economic interdependence notwithstanding, that the European view of Americans was just, well, wrong. Because I will tell you that I know that the impression given out by our conservative press of, say, the average German or French or Brit citizen is anecdotal-based, i.e., the "an American was a customer at a French sidewalk cafe and was insulted by the arrogant French waiter" story. I mean, there are overbearing types from both sides of the water that preach to the "locals" when they are in town as guests or visitors. That is just as bad as overbearing behavior in the host. Just reading some non-American literature is only a start. I'd venture to say that the average European interested in what America thinks doesn't read American literature to find out, but reads the press instead. Well, so do we for the most part.
 
sensop- Well written reply, I don't think there is anything in your post that I dont agree with. I suppose it's a case of it's always the 'loudest' people that get noticed, and normally if they have to be loud to be heard, no-one listens to them in the first place so what they have to say is normally rubbish, and with the high % of tourists to UK & Ireland that means the more loud people we are likely to meet. Though probally most important, is our unfortunate reliance on the media, I mean we see how wrong/stupid they are on firearms related things, so why should they be any more compident in reporting world affairs. Defiantly a great post of yours {referance to my earlier comment on another thread about "reasonable arguments" being able to change others opinions/bias.}

-thanks for posting sensop.
 
Seems like MM, that big, fat, stupid white man might be in some trouble in Canada. The following from National Review on-line.


July 16, 2004, 9:46 a.m.
Moore Madness
Canadians fight back!

By Peter Jaworski

Michael Moore might be in trouble in America for violating the McCain-Feingold campaign-finance rules. Fahrenheit 9/11, a movie lambasting President George W. Bush for the decision to invade Afghanistan and Iraq, comes awfully close to being a political advertisement. The message? Don't vote for Bush. That's what David T. Hardy, coauthor of Michael Moore is a Big Fat Stupid White Man, thinks. He says McCain-Feingold is a "weird law" that would apply to the advertising for Moore's recent flick.




And now, a new website is claiming Moore is also in breach of an election law north of the border. When Moore waddled into Canada's June 28 federal election with exhortations to vote for someone other than Conservative party candidate Stephen Harper, he may have broken the law.

Chargemoore.com, a Canadian website petitioning Canada's election officer Jean-Pierre Kingsley to charge Moore, claims that when Moore said things such as: "You've got four days after it [Fahrenheit 9/11] opens to get people out to the polls to make sure that Mr. Harper does not become your next prime minister," he violated Canada's law.

"Michael Moore is a loudmouth who has done a good job of annoying Americans," says Kasra Nejatian, a Queen's University business student and founder of the website. "The problem is that he usually only annoys people, this time he broke our laws. Not only is he a loudmouth, he is a loudmouth foreigner who breaks our laws."

Nejatian is quite serious about having Moore charged. To that end, he's retained the services of Jonathan Denis, a Calgary, Alberta lawyer, as legal counsel. Denis explains that Moore may have violated Section 331 of the Canada Elections Act. The Section reads: "No person who does not reside in Canada shall, during an election period, in any way induce electors to vote or refrain from voting for a particular candidate unless the person is (a) a Canadian citizen; or (b) a permanent resident."

Denis thinks the violation is pretty obvious.

So does Gerry Nicholls, vice president of the National Citizen's Coalition (NCC), a national right-wing lobby group that has given steam to Nejatian's efforts by publicly supporting it. Nichols says that although they disapprove vehemently with Canada's election laws, they believe those laws should be applied consistently. In their view, conservative groups get slammed with such "gag" laws all the time while liberals get off the hook. He hopes Elections Canada — an independent agency that reports to Canada's parliament — will be equally aggressive in prosecuting those on the left of the political spectrum. "The only thing worse than a gag law," he says, "is a gag law that is selectively enforced."

But this mess gets a little bit thicker. Michael Bradley, mayor of the city of Sarnia, has entered the fray with a "tongue-in-cheek" offer of honorary citizenship to Moore. In a letter to the chief election officer, the mayor wrote: "If it will assist in your review of this matter I am willing to declare Michael Moore a citizen of Sarnia, Ontario therefore making him a de-facto Canadian. Making him a honourary Canadian will give him the right to whine, bitch, moan, complain about taxation and the high level of taxes and then move forward and pay his tax bill and vote for the government in power."

The mayor, featured in Moore's Bowling for Columbine, shares the NCC's antipathy toward the gag law, and says he is not "disinclined" to support the NCC's point. Bradley says he believes in "freedom of trade" and "freedom of expression" and thinks, with the NCC, that the gag law is a violation of the latter. Offering Moore citizenship, he says, is a way of saying the law is nonsense.

"That's the concern I have," says Bradley. "If an idea is valid, the public will make a decision whether they accept it or not. But to legislate an individual's or group's right to speak out during an election, I do find that distasteful."

The mayor adds that the obvious relationship between the city of Sarnia and Moore also informs the citizenship offer. Sarnia is only 90 miles from Flint, Mich., where Moore grew up. It has been featured as a setting in Moore's movies, as were citizens of Sarnia. So it isn't necessarily a partisan battle between the mayor and the conservative groups, says Bradley. He adds: "Philosophically, if it was Rush Limbaugh, I would feel the same way."

Nichols is glad to have the mayor onside, but he thinks the citizenship bit is a "cheap P.R. stunt" on Bradley's part. He's pretty certain the mayor can't bestow citizenship on anyone, and he's glad of it. "The last thing Canada needs is another Marxist here, another left-winger," he says of Moore. "Let the Americans keep him."

Nejatian thinks there are only two possible outcomes of his petition initiative — and he would be happy with both. "It's a win-win situation for us," he says. "Either Michael Moore is charged and is guilty of breaking our law and faces a penalty, or this gag law is found unconstitutional. I'll take either."

— Peter Jaworski is a reporter for Canada's Western Standard
 
Reply to Fred

Fred: You are right about O Reilly. His stand on gun control is anti 2nd,but I agree with him whe he said people who believe MM are certifiable IDIOTS.
 
I agree with him whe he said people who believe MM are certifiable IDIOTS.
I agree as well. I chalk up O'Reilly's having said it to the "Blind Hog" rule; as in "Even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while."
 
Late to the party I suppose

I missed all the Moore bashing. Bummer.

I think it's sad that people are quick to draw conclusions without looking at the whole picture. The message in bowling for columbine is the real cause of violence in America isn't because we have a lot of guns. The movie blamed America's violent tendencies primarily on the American media.

Furthermore, dissent is one of the fundemental rights of an American citizen. So name calling and comments about Moore spitting on America is ignorance.

I don't personally agree with either concepts of why America has such a violent nature for a developed nation. I don't think it's the guns. I really don't think it's as simple as the media. My personal opinion is that poverty is root of all evil. A poor community leads to poor minds and spirits.

No, I don't support Moore. I don't support Heston. I don't support Bush. I really don't even support Kerry. I'm just busting my ass trying to support my family. And I don't see how any of the aforementioned are supporting me.

Straight Shootin' ,

Jason
 
Furthermore, dissent is one of the fundemental rights of an American citizen.
Dissent is not the issue. The use of falsehood and fraud to present said dissent is the issue. If a person disagrees with me, and they have evidence to support their position, fine. No problem. We can discuss the disagreement.
The message in bowling for columbine is the real cause of violence in America isn't because we have a lot of guns. The movie blamed America's violent tendencies primarily on the American media.
Wow! You got a different "message" from BFC than the person who made it did. Good for you.

Take a peek at my sig line below... notice that Mikey (who posted those words on his weblog on 9/22/01) is revealing that he is feeling guilty about needing to edit a movie - whose entire purpose is to demonize guns - all while knowing* that guns are never to blame. While knowing that it is the evil that lurks in the hearts of men that causes destruction.
My personal opinion is that poverty is root of all evil. A poor community leads to poor minds and spirits.
Mohamad Atta was the privleged son of a fantastically wealthy Egyptian attorney. Atta attended only the finest schools the western world had to offer; including studying engineering in Germany. Please tell me again how it was that "poverty" drove him to anihilate 3,000 of my fellow Americans on that September morning. On second thought, don't waste your time, or mine for that matter. :mad:

* If "the media" was the focus of BFC, then it would have been the "media" that was skewered in every scene in the movie. The "media" was not, guns and those Americans who own them were. What part of that don't people get? In the movie there is a 5 minute long cartoon that is used to equate the NRA with the KKK (the hooded KKK guy pours the gas, the unhooded NRA guy lights the cross) where oh where is the CNN guy lighting a cross in the movie??? Where is the NBC executive lynching blacks, or shooting up a WalMart??? That's what I thought. :rolleyes:
 
I think you cannot compare Michael "Goebbels" Moore with Leni Riefenstahl. She, despite being a Nazi propagandist, was an artist. Comparing Michael "Goebbels" Moore with Veit Harlan's "Jud Süss" would fit. It was a very hateful movie against Jews.

By the way, I think Michael "Goebbels" Moore helps to re-elect G. W. Busch by obvious pure hate of the President.
 
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