Money woes, Sherrifs laid off, and armed citizen partols

[Wreck-n-Crew]

It seems that a cash strapped Oregon County has it's hand full with an understaffed sheriffs office and an armed citizens watch group.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-after-cash-strapped-ore-county-guts-sheriff/

When feds terminated subsidies from timber in a county where 70% of the land is federally owned the county had to retire or lay off sheriffs deputies after a failed tax levy by county officials.

After the failed attempt the Josephine County Sheriffs Office said this:

The Sheriff’s Office then issued a press release announcing their deputies would only be responding to what they deemed “life-threatening situations.”

What a mess! This county just stepped back in time and that can have serious ramifications on many levels. Unable or unwilling to get something done to change this is bad business.

Then the Deputy who was forced to retire decided to act forming a community watch:

Ken Selig -- who was the longest-serving law enforcement officer in all three local agencies when he was forced to retire from the department due to cuts -- told FoxNews.com he found the sheriff’s declaration unacceptable. And he felt compelled to guard his community’s vulnerable members.

“Who else is going to protect you when your government can't?” Selig said.

Selig and his friend Pete Scaglione formed the North Valley Community Watch, a county-wide organization dedicated to helping citizens in non-life-threatening situations, primarily property crimes. It is one of a handful of community groups that have formed since the cuts. Without a robust Sheriff's Office, their mission is broader than the typical neighborhood watch group.

After taking a jab at the citizens for the lack of a financial support :

However, Josephine County Commissioner Keith Heck said residents of the county that opposed the tax levy need to realize there is no fat to cut.

Heck makes a statement about his fears of the community watch:

Heck said though he supports neighborhood watch groups and citizens being vigilant in their community, the rise of increasingly “aggressive” community watch groups make him worried the situation could escalate to violence. Watch groups have been under increasing scrutiny nationally ever since the George Zimmerman case in Florida.

“These things seem good on the PR side but fail a little in the reality side,” Heck said.

This just may very well be a time bomb. I hope at some point soon they get this resolved before this thing blows it's top.

 

[fuhr52]

Best way to punish the voters is to cut public safety. How dare the voters refuse to pay higher taxes.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Best way to punish the voters is to cut public safety. How dare the voters refuse to pay higher taxes.

I don't disagree ... but I also don't agree.

The article tells us that the cuts were a result of federal law enforcement grants that ran out. And this is the problem with us (the citizens of the United States) getting ourselves "hooked" on federal money. The federal government is functionally bankrupt, and they'd rather give what money they have to foreign countries that hate us instead of to Americans, so a lot of federally-subsidized programs are finding (or will find) themselves suddenly trying to figure out how to pay for programs that were built up using Uncle Sugar's money.

If everything were equal (which, of course, things never are), if the feds de-fund something our taxes should go down so the local taxes could absorb the program and there would be no net difference to the citizens. But it doesn't work that way -- the federal government doesn't stop taking our money, they just stop the programs and spend the money somewhere else.

I don't think it's entirely fair to criticize the citizens of that county. The article didn't tell us how much of a tax hike would have been required to maintain the Sheriff's Department at the previous level. Since the taxpayer's would have had to pick up the slack of an expiring federal subsidy, we can be certain that it was going to be a lot more than a couple of percent cost-of-living adjustment. The deficit was $7.5 MILLION ... that's a lot for a rural country where most of the real estate is owned by the feds and doesn't generate any taxable income or pay any property taxes.

How many of you live in small and/or sparsely-populated towns or counties? Could YOUR jurisdiction absorb a 7.5 MILLION dollar increase in the expense of running the government?

The effects of federal interference in local and state government are insidious.

 

[WyMark]

So there should have been a line item ballot, so the citizens could decide what parts of government they wanted to cut? With all the services listed and then voters rate them in descending order of importance, 1 through 10. Then whatever gets the most votes, public safety or trash removal or the library or animal control or whatever, gets funded the most.

That would be an awesome display of democracy in action.

 

[shortwave]

So there should have been a line item ballot, so the citizens could decide what parts of government they wanted to cut? With all the services listed and then voters rate them in descending order of importance, 1 through 10. Then whatever gets the most votes, public safety or trash removal or the library or animal control or whatever, gets funded the most.

That would be an awesome display of democracy in action

That would be nice but is just a fairy tail. Sadly, our government today has turned things around brainwashing society that the public is supposed to serve the government instead of things being the other way around.

State and local governments get real used to these federal grants to the point that if the grants stop, the state or city is in serious trouble. Kinda like an individual that's working a lot of overtime that sets his bills up depending on the OT. When the OT shuts down, that person loses his shorts.

The Fed. gov't can really use these Fed. grant monies as huge clubs to get things they want done once the state get their budget hugely depending on the grants.

 

[ClydeFrog]

Resources, politics, TRAINING....

This "mess" isn't easy or simple to comment on w/o going in several directions at once.

I think this "perfect storm"(politics, lack of resources/$, egos, training, etc) shows how far & fast things can get screwed up in terms of "homeland security" & public safety.
Poor & distressed communities LOSE $$$(tax revenue). Without COPS grants or federal/state funding many LE agencies develop problems.
The Florida Sheriff of Martin County(name unknown, edit later) stated in a media report his agency was under-staffed by 287 sworn deputies!
Elected officials & LE command staff can't blame or rail against private citizens(with no criminal records & valid gun licenses) who want to protect themselves.
The recent "high profile court case" is central Florida is a valid concern but a elected official/public safety supervisor needs to put that into perspective.
The private security group or crime prevention squad should have ROEs(rules of engagement) or SOPs that are practical but allow the members to defend themselves in critical incidents.
I saw a news report of a local school district that wanted to form a "security patrol" of volunteers post-Sandy Hook. The school board wanted the members to be unarmed & only "observe and report" any events. They didn't have the $$$ for school resource officers or sworn uniformed deputies.
I disagree with that mindset. Security groups can be TRAINED to carry weapons properly. The big part is learning & understanding use-of-force standards.
It can be done properly, but it takes time & $$$.

Clyde

 

[Double Naught Spy]

It can be done properly, but it takes time & $$$.

Hmmm. Isn't $$$ that which they don't have or Oregon, LOL.

Voluteer patrols are not apt to provide consistent coverage or have consistent viability over time and likely will decrease with time as participants get frustrated with the ineffective use of their time.

My guess is that the majority who were unwilling to pay additional taxes are also the majority who don't wish to participate in such patrols, leaving the crux of the load on the minority who probably have a lot of other responsibilities and limited time already.

It is a significant endeavor to manage/maintain a coordinated volunteer program.

 

[manta49]

Civilians taking on the job of the police is a recipe for disaster. We had similar here in the past it wasn't long before they were handing out their own forms of justice. I am not sure what they are called in America they were called vigilantes here.

Example bellow of so called neighbourhood watch groups and what can happen.

Police are investigating the possibility that a man nailed to a wooden fence in a savage 'crucifixion' in Belfast yesterday was attacked by a so-called 'neighbourhood watch' group.
Harry ****** remained in the Royal Victoria Hospital last night awaiting surgery to remove two blocks of wood that were still attached to his hands by nails. He had been so badly beaten his family could only identify him by a tattoo on his arm. His condition was described as 'ill but stable'.

The 23-year-old was attacked by a gang of men who subjected him to a horrific beating before nailing both his hands to a wooden fence.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

So there should have been a line item ballot, so the citizens could decide what parts of government they wanted to cut?

Do we know that there wasn't?

 

[Tom Servo]

That would be an awesome display of democracy in action

Actually, it would be a display of just how bad we are at practicing democracy. You would have weeks or months of bickering and hair-pulling, followed by no coherent budget whatsoever. Then there would be calls for some outside (probably federal) party to step in and arbitrate.

As for neighborhood patrols...that may have worked in the 18th century, but I don't see it working today. You'd need standardization, training, and discipline. Who's to provide that?

Let's say Joe Bob decides he wants to do a citizen's arrest on me. The line between actual law enforcement and vigilantism can get hazy. Who actually delegated the power to him? Is it legal? Has he met standards for probable cause and use of force? If I think the arrest is unlawful, or if I don't recognize his authority, what happens if I decide to resist?

We're left with a situation in which the meanest and strongest make the rules. Can't say I'm enthusiastic about that.

 

[WyMark]

Yes, I was trying to be facetious. Guess I should have included a /sarcasm tag.

 

[Merad]

I don't think it's entirely fair to criticize the citizens of that county. The article didn't tell us how much of a tax hike would have been required to maintain the Sheriff's Department at the previous level. Since the taxpayer's would have had to pick up the slack of an expiring federal subsidy, we can be certain that it was going to be a lot more than a couple of percent cost-of-living adjustment. The deficit was $7.5 MILLION ... that's a lot for a rural country where most of the real estate is owned by the feds and doesn't generate any taxable income or pay any property taxes.

I think it's plenty fair. It's not that hard to find census data and do some math.

In 2012 the county had an estimated population of 82930, in 34373 households. Split evenly, 7.5 million comes out to $90.44 per person or $218.20 per household. Alternatively, $7.54 per person per month, or $18.19 per household per month. Basically, even a minimum wage worker is only giving up one hour of wages per month for police coverage. A pretty good deal, I think.

They made their decision... now they have to deal with it.

 

[kilimanjaro]

"Let's say Joe Bob decides he wants to do a citizen's arrest on me. The line between actual law enforcement and vigilantism can get hazy. Who actually delegated the power to him? Is it legal? Has he met standards for probable cause and use of force? If I think the arrest is unlawful, or if I don't recognize his authority, what happens if I decide to resist?"

In the context of Joe Bob making the decision to perform a citizen's arrest, he is performing an actual law enforcement function, until Joe Bob holds a kangaroo court and sentences you to some punishment, presumably a noose or a shooting, that's when vigilante justice can be invoked as the correct term, not before.

The state delegated the power to him, and to every other citizen of the state.

Yes, it's legal.

Whatever standards Joe Bob met when he made the citizen's arrest will be noted by the professional LEO who comes to take the miscreant into custody from Joe Bob. The LEO may release Joe Bob's collar, but probably not, unless Joe Bob is wont to arrest jaywalkers or something like that.

If Joe Bob is stupid enough to arrest a jaywalker, say, he's stupid enough to be someone you don't want to challenge or resist, just wait for the cops to show up and deal with it. If Joe Bob is without cause or obviously at fault, they'll take him to jail.

If you think the arrest is unlawful, you have the right to contest that in court. If you resist a citizen's arrest, depending on the crime you may have committed when Joe Bob decided to arrest you for detainer, Joe Bob can respond with appropriate means. Don't get caught in Joe Bob's house at night with a burglary tool.

If Joe Bob knocks you down or has to shoot you after you attack him, you're on thin legal ice, I think.

 

[NWPilgrim]

Some jumping to conclusions in the above. An armed neighborhood watch program of 100 volunteers does not mean they are going to make arrests or cover the entire town. Sounds to me they plan to patrol their own hones and try to prevent property crimes from occurring, not track guys down afterward to make arrests.

If you had to go to work every day and the police told they will not patrol or respond to property crimes who among you would NOT meet with neighbors and try to help each other out? Are we a bunch of sheeple helpless without professional report takers and investigators? Is thus the quilting forum I mistakenly logged into?

 

[OuTcAsT]

Merad wrote;

I think it's plenty fair. It's not that hard to find census data and do some math.

In 2012 the county had an estimated population of 82930, in 34373 households. Split evenly, 7.5 million comes out to $90.44 per person or $218.20 per household. Alternatively, $7.54 per person per month, or $18.19 per household per month. Basically, even a minimum wage worker is only giving up one hour of wages per month for police coverage. A pretty good deal, I think.

While that math looks simple enough on paper, it ain't likely the reality of the situation. Typically taxes of this nature are levied against property.
If .gov owns most of the property in the area,(70%) guess who gets the taxes ? (Hint: The few (around 30%) people that actually own their own property ) Leaving actual property owners with a disproportionally large tax bill compared to the rest of their neighbors.

Also, considering that the timber industry is the major employer, those subsidies likely affected the salaries in the area as well. Hard to get blood from a turnip.

 

[manta49]

Whatever standards Joe Bob met when he made the citizen's arrest will be noted by the professional LEO who comes to take the miscreant into custody from Joe Bob.

The problem is if Joe comes to you and tells he is going to arrest you. Then you are probably going to tell him where to go, that's when problems arise. People guarding their house something that they would do anyway OK outside that problems happen. As I said earlier similar happened here and still does, its not long before they take the law into their own hands and dish out their own justice.

 

[Tom Servo]

The state delegated the power to him, and to every other citizen of the state.

Some states might. Many don't. In fact, Joe Bob could find himself in hot water for something like kidnapping or unlawful detainment. If he has to use force, that's a whole other matter. There's a reason the police conduct arrests in very specific ways and use very specific procedures.

What's the line between citizen's arrest and vigilantism? It's thin and not to clearly drawn, and it can easily go very wrong. One of the best writings on the subject is the "Dangerous Myth of the Citizens' Arrest" by Massad Ayoob. It should be required reading for anyone who owns a gun for self-defense.

The whole idea of an armed citizen police force may seem endearing, but it can go horribly wrong in an instant.

 

[Jim Watson]

I agree with fuhr52.
Cut law enforcement to really stir things up. Not the assortment of administrative employees, staff, and flunkies that the boss hogs just can't do without.

Kind of like the Federal Government "shutdown" during which "essential personnel" were kept on duty to chase people out of closed public parks.

 

[jrwhitt]

Manta49

As I said earlier similar happened here and still does, its not long before they take the law into their own hands and dish out their own justice. [\QUOTE]


Manta49 talks the truth where "Neighbourhood Watch" provided their own equipment on patrol including hammers for the hands and Black & Decker drills for the knees. In some cases they were protecting the neighbourhood and in others protecting the rackets they were also running.

It's awfully easy to go from a watch to a vigilante

 

[Spats McGee]

Let's avoid the purely political snark.