"Molon labe"
- Thread starter John/az2
- Start date
- Status
I'm a bit at a loss for words, folks.
Thank you for the compliments but think about yourselves for a moment.
There are many bulletin boards on the internet where people are arguing and
deciding what our Constitution "really means".
Most people have no idea what it means, how to apply it, or the incredible
history behind it.
They stand prepared to follow our government down the slippery slope, almost
*eager* to give up their Rights and the Rights of our descendents for what
they consider the safety of "common sense" gun restrictions.
They are willing to leave us powerless, trapped between violent crime and a
tyrannical government of elitists.
Many good people are being fed the lie of a "living Constitution". Yes, the
Constitution lives, but it is a "ruling" document - not a "living" document
which elitists can change at will to disenfranchise most Americans.
Each of us has learned so much here on TFL and we must continue to learn.
However, we must begin to lead.
Browbeating and insults will not sway the unbeliever or the misinformed.
Though we become frustrated with these people, please resist the urge to
squash them with insults. In such a manner you win a battle which is
personally gratifying; but you lose the war and all the bystanders - the
lurkers.
Do not match insults with your adversary. Carefully, accurately, and
unambiguously show all who read your posts the historical intent of the Bill of
Rights and back up your facts with quotations and references.
Take the high road. Accept sarcastic questions courteously and at face value.
Use the opportunity to teach pertinent facts clearly and without compromise.
Many TFLers have said that IF our Republic is to be saved it will be
accomplished by the people who are now bystanders. Many of those
bystanders will either become RKBA advocates or HCI advocates. It is for us
to teach, to explain, and to bring these bystanders into the struggle to save
our Republic. Our government presently will not help us - we are working at
cross-purposes. Therefore, it is *our* leadership abilities which will
determine whom these bystanders eventually will support. It is for *us* to
decide whether our children enjoy freedom and liberty or suffer the yoke of
big government and tyranny. But we can not do it alone. We must win the
support of those not yet in the fray. We must convince the bystanders that
without them, their children will suffer under a repressive government.
Let us lead!
We must lead. For if we do not lead, there may come a day when our
children or grandchildren must stand outnumbered and ready to die saying,
Molon labe!
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited October 27, 2000).]
Thank you for the compliments but think about yourselves for a moment.
There are many bulletin boards on the internet where people are arguing and
deciding what our Constitution "really means".
Most people have no idea what it means, how to apply it, or the incredible
history behind it.
They stand prepared to follow our government down the slippery slope, almost
*eager* to give up their Rights and the Rights of our descendents for what
they consider the safety of "common sense" gun restrictions.
They are willing to leave us powerless, trapped between violent crime and a
tyrannical government of elitists.
Many good people are being fed the lie of a "living Constitution". Yes, the
Constitution lives, but it is a "ruling" document - not a "living" document
which elitists can change at will to disenfranchise most Americans.
Each of us has learned so much here on TFL and we must continue to learn.
However, we must begin to lead.
Browbeating and insults will not sway the unbeliever or the misinformed.
Though we become frustrated with these people, please resist the urge to
squash them with insults. In such a manner you win a battle which is
personally gratifying; but you lose the war and all the bystanders - the
lurkers.
Do not match insults with your adversary. Carefully, accurately, and
unambiguously show all who read your posts the historical intent of the Bill of
Rights and back up your facts with quotations and references.
Take the high road. Accept sarcastic questions courteously and at face value.
Use the opportunity to teach pertinent facts clearly and without compromise.
Many TFLers have said that IF our Republic is to be saved it will be
accomplished by the people who are now bystanders. Many of those
bystanders will either become RKBA advocates or HCI advocates. It is for us
to teach, to explain, and to bring these bystanders into the struggle to save
our Republic. Our government presently will not help us - we are working at
cross-purposes. Therefore, it is *our* leadership abilities which will
determine whom these bystanders eventually will support. It is for *us* to
decide whether our children enjoy freedom and liberty or suffer the yoke of
big government and tyranny. But we can not do it alone. We must win the
support of those not yet in the fray. We must convince the bystanders that
without them, their children will suffer under a repressive government.
Let us lead!
We must lead. For if we do not lead, there may come a day when our
children or grandchildren must stand outnumbered and ready to die saying,
Molon labe!
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited October 27, 2000).]
Some other interesting things surrounding Thermopylae:
There were 7 helots (slaves) for every Spartan (they called themselves Lacedaemonian and hence the lamda (inverted "V" on their shields)) at Thermopylae.
Originally 7000 Greeks of the Hellenic League were sent with Leonidas to hold Thermopylae.
When he learned that he was cut off, Leonidas either released most of his allies (or they fled of their own accord) but kept 700 Thespiaens and 400 Thebans.
Two Lacedaemonians survived the battle (both were not present and one was due to temporary blindness). Both lived in disgrace but one redeemed himself in battle.
Finally, as Sparta had two kings, it sucked to be Leonidas but the prophecy that one of Sparta's kings must die before Greek victory had to be fulfilled. Lesson: the Oracle at Delphi could lead to deadly results.
There were 7 helots (slaves) for every Spartan (they called themselves Lacedaemonian and hence the lamda (inverted "V" on their shields)) at Thermopylae.
Originally 7000 Greeks of the Hellenic League were sent with Leonidas to hold Thermopylae.
When he learned that he was cut off, Leonidas either released most of his allies (or they fled of their own accord) but kept 700 Thespiaens and 400 Thebans.
Two Lacedaemonians survived the battle (both were not present and one was due to temporary blindness). Both lived in disgrace but one redeemed himself in battle.
Finally, as Sparta had two kings, it sucked to be Leonidas but the prophecy that one of Sparta's kings must die before Greek victory had to be fulfilled. Lesson: the Oracle at Delphi could lead to deadly results.
John Marshall
New member
Bam Bam,
"...polish it..."? How? Why?
Dennis,
You have a gift and we are the better for it.
------------------
If you're not a little upset with the way the world is going, you're not paying attention.
"...polish it..."? How? Why?
Dennis,
You have a gift and we are the better for it.
------------------
If you're not a little upset with the way the world is going, you're not paying attention.
BadMedicine
Moderator
In the future, possibly the very near future, the laws will become so restrictive that even though we wish to be honest americans, the meer fact that we own guns will make us criminals. We'll have the politicians and cops pounding on our door in hopes to disarm us, and we'll have the REAL criminals, thugs, thieves, and murderers sneaking in our back windows trying to get at our family. When the end is near...
"I would require only
one thing of each of you. When they send us to Hell, arrive there with a
dead East German (democratic politician) under one arm and a dead Russian(Thug/murderer/rapist) under the other.”
If I go before I'm ready, hopefully I'll have time to knaw at the throat or tear out the eyes of somebody who would oppress me.
And I agree with everybody else Dennis, thats a very inspiring story. Thank you for sharing it. I liked the greece story too, but find it a little tall to think that 300 could hold 2 mill for a week
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IF you're not willing to die for your rights/beliefs, don't try to take mine.
"I would require only
one thing of each of you. When they send us to Hell, arrive there with a
dead East German (democratic politician) under one arm and a dead Russian(Thug/murderer/rapist) under the other.”
If I go before I'm ready, hopefully I'll have time to knaw at the throat or tear out the eyes of somebody who would oppress me.
And I agree with everybody else Dennis, thats a very inspiring story. Thank you for sharing it. I liked the greece story too, but find it a little tall to think that 300 could hold 2 mill for a week
------------------
IF you're not willing to die for your rights/beliefs, don't try to take mine.
They were able to hold for a week because they were fighting a (nearly) honorable foe. The Persians first sent a matching force against them. When that was defeated they send a larger force, ditto. Then after a week there was no way for them to hold. They did exactly what the defenders of the Alamo did. Buy time for the rest of their brothers to prepare. Sometimes you lose the battles to win the war. There, are heros made.
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Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club
68-70
true story, a Union Gen. once said "Don't worry about those Rebs. They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..SPLAT.
------------------
Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club
68-70
true story, a Union Gen. once said "Don't worry about those Rebs. They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..SPLAT.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Molon Labe
TFL'rs will be seeing alot more of this famous statement in the near future. The connotation is far greater than the literal translation....it's the statement of a group who asks not for War; the statement of a group unwilling to strike an offensive blow. It's simple testimony to some Mens' refusal to be disarmed by force or to leave their families dependant on the "promises" of their conquerors.
I am most intersted in the history of this event, but have been unable to lock down the real numbers. I have heard, for instance, that 300 Spartans and an assortment of slave and volunteers killed 20,000 of the 60,000 Persians in that week long battle. But, then, I've heard far different numbers. If anyone here is capable of providing referenced sources for their estimates, it would be greatly appreciated.
Rich
TFL'rs will be seeing alot more of this famous statement in the near future. The connotation is far greater than the literal translation....it's the statement of a group who asks not for War; the statement of a group unwilling to strike an offensive blow. It's simple testimony to some Mens' refusal to be disarmed by force or to leave their families dependant on the "promises" of their conquerors.
I am most intersted in the history of this event, but have been unable to lock down the real numbers. I have heard, for instance, that 300 Spartans and an assortment of slave and volunteers killed 20,000 of the 60,000 Persians in that week long battle. But, then, I've heard far different numbers. If anyone here is capable of providing referenced sources for their estimates, it would be greatly appreciated.
Rich
*Urk!* Greece and Rome at War, Warfare in the Classical World, and all my Osprey Men At Arms books got transported back to my apartment just 13 hours ago, preparatory to my moving back into the place that's served as an obscenely expensive U-Stor-It while I healed up at my Pookie's following the accident.
I'll get right on it...
------------------
"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
[This message has been edited by Tamara (edited October 28, 2000).]
I'll get right on it...
------------------
"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
[This message has been edited by Tamara (edited October 28, 2000).]
It is most likely debated by scholars in the Journal of Hellenic Studies. The numbers game is still debated among scholars and to this day some feel Herodotus (concurrently known as the Father of History or Inventor of Lies) may have inflated the size of the Persian Host so as to protray the Greeks more favorably. Problem is that if there were steles commerating this battle raised by any participant city, it is long since destroyed, or damaged, or still awaiting to be found by the archaeologists.
As a poscript, in the final battle of the Greek-Persian War, the army of the allied Greek city staes faced the invading Persian army at Platea. Natuarlly the Spartans were there.
The Persians believed in divide and conquer. They sent a herald to the Spartan position who said
"THe great King has no quarrel with you Spartans. Leave this place and you will live and your city will be secure."
It was part of the Spartan tradition to give short answersto the enemy..
THe Spartan king replted "No."
The Persian herald said
"Think what you do man. If we win this battle, we will march to Sparta and destroy it utterly!"
The Spartan King smiled and replied "IF!"
The battle was fought. The Spartans broke the Persian lines, killed the Persian Commander, and captured the Persian camp. The invading Persian army was destroyed and needless to say, the Persians never marched to Sparta.
The Persians believed in divide and conquer. They sent a herald to the Spartan position who said
"THe great King has no quarrel with you Spartans. Leave this place and you will live and your city will be secure."
It was part of the Spartan tradition to give short answersto the enemy..
THe Spartan king replted "No."
The Persian herald said
"Think what you do man. If we win this battle, we will march to Sparta and destroy it utterly!"
The Spartan King smiled and replied "IF!"
The battle was fought. The Spartans broke the Persian lines, killed the Persian Commander, and captured the Persian camp. The invading Persian army was destroyed and needless to say, the Persians never marched to Sparta.
You know that the graves of those who died together at Thermopyle remain there undisturbed to this day. Likely there's nothing of value to tempt scavengers or looters, and archeologists for whatever reason have similarly avoided any temptation to scrounge for souveniers.
I can think of other and better comparisons, and the *Molon Labe* reply was better answered by the Texians of Texas who flew their *Come and take it* flag after Mexican demands to return a cannon they'd acquired for protection against Indian attacks.
Similarly, the later French defence and near-massacre of the French Foreign Legion at Camerone is celebrated by the Foreign Legion, not for the defeat but for the way in which those defeated held out for so long as possible-and then attacked with fixed bayonets.
In more recent times, 1940, outnumbered Finns held out at Kolla Hill during the 1939-40 *Winter War* with one small difference: the entrenched Finns wiped out the invaders, though the cost was nearly as high as a defeat would have been; but there too the events at *Killer Hill* are celebrated and remembered.
It's not a good thing to celebrate a defeat, or to be on the receiving end of one. But if that's how the cards are dealy, you're under the best command you can hope for under the circumstances, and the others with you hold their posts and don't run out on you, they deserve the same courtesy in return. If that's how the end is to come, it may be at least be a small comfort to be with those who stood with you at the end. That's loyalty, to the core:
*Stranger, go tell the Spartans how we lie, loyal to their laws, here we die.*
http://hsc.csu.edu.au/ancthist/courses/23unit/hist_per/medes/75/page122.htm
I can think of other and better comparisons, and the *Molon Labe* reply was better answered by the Texians of Texas who flew their *Come and take it* flag after Mexican demands to return a cannon they'd acquired for protection against Indian attacks.
Similarly, the later French defence and near-massacre of the French Foreign Legion at Camerone is celebrated by the Foreign Legion, not for the defeat but for the way in which those defeated held out for so long as possible-and then attacked with fixed bayonets.
In more recent times, 1940, outnumbered Finns held out at Kolla Hill during the 1939-40 *Winter War* with one small difference: the entrenched Finns wiped out the invaders, though the cost was nearly as high as a defeat would have been; but there too the events at *Killer Hill* are celebrated and remembered.
It's not a good thing to celebrate a defeat, or to be on the receiving end of one. But if that's how the cards are dealy, you're under the best command you can hope for under the circumstances, and the others with you hold their posts and don't run out on you, they deserve the same courtesy in return. If that's how the end is to come, it may be at least be a small comfort to be with those who stood with you at the end. That's loyalty, to the core:
*Stranger, go tell the Spartans how we lie, loyal to their laws, here we die.*
http://hsc.csu.edu.au/ancthist/courses/23unit/hist_per/medes/75/page122.htm
Dennis
Mister May obviously was one of those spirits who knew what honor meant, and what freedom called for. He is in great company, several examples have been mentioned here already. His words to you sound almost exactly the same as the words Crazy Horse spoke to his warriors before going into battle: Hoka-hey (Today is a good day to die). Might such people always be with us. And thanks to all here who have already done their share, and probably more.
------------------
Hoka-hey
Mister May obviously was one of those spirits who knew what honor meant, and what freedom called for. He is in great company, several examples have been mentioned here already. His words to you sound almost exactly the same as the words Crazy Horse spoke to his warriors before going into battle: Hoka-hey (Today is a good day to die). Might such people always be with us. And thanks to all here who have already done their share, and probably more.
------------------
Hoka-hey
http://www.comeandtakeit.com/txhist.html#FLAGINFO
Why We Need
the Come And Take It Flag Today
by David C. Treibs
October 2, 1835
1990s
At every turn, someone is trying to disarm us. It has been in this increasingly hostile environment to our freedom that I began remembering our forefathers and the efforts of various tyrants to
disarm them. You know that the battles at Lexington and Concord, the start of the American Revolution, erupted because British troops were marching to seize the colonists' weapons at these
two locations.
You may not be aware that the Texas revolution started in a similar way: Mexican troops, General Santa Anna's thugs, were marching on the town of Gonzales to seize their cannon, but the
people refused to surrender their arms, and fought off the Mexicans. (Go to the top of this page to read the account in detail.) At this first skirmish the Texans flew one of Texas' most famous
flags: ole' "Come And Take It."
The Come And Take It flag and its history have always fascinated me, because it is still relevant today--tyrants are still trying to take our guns, and, like our forefathers, we will surrender neither
our guns nor our right to own them.
While pondering the struggles our forefathers faced, and while admiring the Come And Take It flag, I couldn't help but wish that we in the 1990s had a symbol as powerful and inspiring as the
Come And Take It flag was in 1835. Sure, the flag is relevant in that tyrants are still trying to take our guns, but no one is coming to take our breechloading, black powder, smoothbore
fieldpiece. The cannon on the flag is largely symbolic of our struggle to retain our modern firearms. I thought to myself, why not update the flag so it represents our current struggle, while
harkening back to history--reminding everyone that the struggle to retain our rights is as old as Texas and the USA? With a historical flag representing our cause, it will be apparent that we who
fight those who would disarm us are not extreme or radical, we are merely walking in the footsteps and in the well-beaten paths first trod by our forefathers. Our historic flag would declare our
historic cause.
To re-design the Come And Take It flag for today wasn't very hard, because most of the work had already been done by Sarah Lee Dewitt in 1835. Since the cannon was the only item that was
slightly dated, it made sense to replace it with a modern firearm. The firearm would need to be one of those that someone, in fact, many someones and many levels of government are literally
coming to take, and in many instances, have already taken it. It would have to be American designed and made. It would have to be easily recognizable even at a long distance. It should be a
military-style firearm so there is no doubt that the right to keep and bear arms includes these firearms. It should have the features that are the target of todays tyrants: high-capacity magazine,
bayonet lug, and flash suppressor, and not necessarily semi-automatic only.
The choice was easy to make, because there is only one firearm meeting those criteria. It was designed by an American, has been used extensively by the US military, is instantly recognized by
everyone, and so on. That firearm, as you might have guessed, is the Colt AR-15/M-16.
Retaining the styling from the 1835 Come And Take It flag allows anyone seeing the new Come And Take It flag to instantly recognize it as the 1835 flag with only one change.
One change, but now, oh, the new meaning it adds to the flag!
Now, no one can say the flag is only about a struggle between Santa Anna's thugs and Texans 160 years ago in the far away and distant past that offers no bearing today and has no relevance in
today's struggle over gun control.
Now, anyone who sees the flag will instantly consider that history is repeating itself today, and that President Clinton and his thugs are aligned with those tyrants of old--Santa Anna, King
George III--that the Crime Bill is nothing new and is nothing more than the work of evil men working to subject the good and the innocent to tyranny and servitude. And perhaps, when people
see the flag they will choose the side of those resisting the marching thugs, and will take their place in that long line of patriots, minutemen, and freedom-fighters who have stood against wrong
for hundreds of years.
Perhaps if they are not too familiar with the flag's history they will read about it and discover that the only difference between now and 1835 is the tyrants' names.
When we see the flag we can remember that those standing in that long line of history stood their ground. They did not back down, they did not surrender, they did not compromise, even when
the cost was great. Many of the men standing at Gonzales died at the Alamo or in other battles against Santa Anna, and as the men of the American Revolution, they sacrificed their lives, their
fortunes, and their sacred honors. How can we do any less?
Why We Need
the Come And Take It Flag Today
by David C. Treibs
October 2, 1835
1990s
At every turn, someone is trying to disarm us. It has been in this increasingly hostile environment to our freedom that I began remembering our forefathers and the efforts of various tyrants to
disarm them. You know that the battles at Lexington and Concord, the start of the American Revolution, erupted because British troops were marching to seize the colonists' weapons at these
two locations.
You may not be aware that the Texas revolution started in a similar way: Mexican troops, General Santa Anna's thugs, were marching on the town of Gonzales to seize their cannon, but the
people refused to surrender their arms, and fought off the Mexicans. (Go to the top of this page to read the account in detail.) At this first skirmish the Texans flew one of Texas' most famous
flags: ole' "Come And Take It."
The Come And Take It flag and its history have always fascinated me, because it is still relevant today--tyrants are still trying to take our guns, and, like our forefathers, we will surrender neither
our guns nor our right to own them.
While pondering the struggles our forefathers faced, and while admiring the Come And Take It flag, I couldn't help but wish that we in the 1990s had a symbol as powerful and inspiring as the
Come And Take It flag was in 1835. Sure, the flag is relevant in that tyrants are still trying to take our guns, but no one is coming to take our breechloading, black powder, smoothbore
fieldpiece. The cannon on the flag is largely symbolic of our struggle to retain our modern firearms. I thought to myself, why not update the flag so it represents our current struggle, while
harkening back to history--reminding everyone that the struggle to retain our rights is as old as Texas and the USA? With a historical flag representing our cause, it will be apparent that we who
fight those who would disarm us are not extreme or radical, we are merely walking in the footsteps and in the well-beaten paths first trod by our forefathers. Our historic flag would declare our
historic cause.
To re-design the Come And Take It flag for today wasn't very hard, because most of the work had already been done by Sarah Lee Dewitt in 1835. Since the cannon was the only item that was
slightly dated, it made sense to replace it with a modern firearm. The firearm would need to be one of those that someone, in fact, many someones and many levels of government are literally
coming to take, and in many instances, have already taken it. It would have to be American designed and made. It would have to be easily recognizable even at a long distance. It should be a
military-style firearm so there is no doubt that the right to keep and bear arms includes these firearms. It should have the features that are the target of todays tyrants: high-capacity magazine,
bayonet lug, and flash suppressor, and not necessarily semi-automatic only.
The choice was easy to make, because there is only one firearm meeting those criteria. It was designed by an American, has been used extensively by the US military, is instantly recognized by
everyone, and so on. That firearm, as you might have guessed, is the Colt AR-15/M-16.
Retaining the styling from the 1835 Come And Take It flag allows anyone seeing the new Come And Take It flag to instantly recognize it as the 1835 flag with only one change.
One change, but now, oh, the new meaning it adds to the flag!
Now, no one can say the flag is only about a struggle between Santa Anna's thugs and Texans 160 years ago in the far away and distant past that offers no bearing today and has no relevance in
today's struggle over gun control.
Now, anyone who sees the flag will instantly consider that history is repeating itself today, and that President Clinton and his thugs are aligned with those tyrants of old--Santa Anna, King
George III--that the Crime Bill is nothing new and is nothing more than the work of evil men working to subject the good and the innocent to tyranny and servitude. And perhaps, when people
see the flag they will choose the side of those resisting the marching thugs, and will take their place in that long line of patriots, minutemen, and freedom-fighters who have stood against wrong
for hundreds of years.
Perhaps if they are not too familiar with the flag's history they will read about it and discover that the only difference between now and 1835 is the tyrants' names.
When we see the flag we can remember that those standing in that long line of history stood their ground. They did not back down, they did not surrender, they did not compromise, even when
the cost was great. Many of the men standing at Gonzales died at the Alamo or in other battles against Santa Anna, and as the men of the American Revolution, they sacrificed their lives, their
fortunes, and their sacred honors. How can we do any less?
Travis McGee
New member
DZ: Great flag! As is the "Modern Gadsen" with the AR15, which I have copied frequently on Free Republic. Are they both your designs?
Thanks to all who posted information here. I've saved it to a file that I can show to others in the future, in hopes that it will move them as much as I have been moved tonight. I don't know how I've missed that story over the years, as much as I read & stick my nose into.
Information is power, and now we are all better armed. Thanks again!
Oak
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Oak
------------------
"Skeptical scrutiny can separate deep insights from deep nonsense."
Information is power, and now we are all better armed. Thanks again!
Oak
------------------
Oak
------------------
"Skeptical scrutiny can separate deep insights from deep nonsense."
As to numbers, in the final battle, the Greek forces consisted of 300 Spartan citizens who were hopolites (well armored hevy infantry), 700 Thespian hopolites and 400 Theban hopolites, about 1400 men plus the 9oo Spartan helots who were light infantry. The best estimates are that the Persians had 150,000 to 200,000 men less the casualties they had suffered in their previos attacks.
Leonadis knew he had no chance to win. He fought a delaying action to protect the retreat of the rest of the Greek forces.
Leonadis knew he had no chance to win. He fought a delaying action to protect the retreat of the rest of the Greek forces.
- Status