Modified triggers and self defense

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Roland Thunder

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I've heard many people suggest that carrying a gun with a modified trigger is asking for trouble in a courtroom should you ever have to use it.

How about home defense, is there less concern using a gun with a "trigger job" to defend your home than for ccw? I have an M&P45c with the Apex trigger kit and I don't carry it because it has bout a 3.5oz trigger. I am currently using it at the range and a nightstand gun.
 
I think so long as it is a legal shoot you are fine. If it's a bad/questionable shoot or unintentional then I think you will have a worse time than if you had a stock pistol.

I can only live in fear of so many things in my life at one time. A modified trigger (within reason) is not something I would worry about.
 
GregInAtl said:
. . . . it has bout a 3.5oz trigger . . . .
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Seriously, 3.5 ounces? :eek: That seems awfully light, almost no matter what the intended purpose.

Going back to your original question, though, the legal danger of a modified trigger is less a problem from a SD perspective than it is from a negligence perspective. IOW, if you're involved in an SD shooting, and trying to use self-defense as a justification defense, what you are really saying (to the court and the jury) is: Yes, I shot that bad guy, but I had a really good reason. In this situation, the weight of trigger pull isn't much of an issue, because you have to admit that you intended to shoot the BG, anyway.

OTOH, if you shoot someone and wind up being sued for negligence, then one possible stance to take is: "I didn't mean to shoot him, but the gun 'went off.'" (If you claimed SD in the preceding criminal trial, this stance is pretty much out the window.) In this case, you will have to explain to someone (police, prosecutor, judge, jury . . . take your pick, depending on circumstances) why you had the trigger lightened so far. And why you pointed it at the Sainted Plaintiff, who no doubt walked his grandmother to church every Sunday, going uphill in the snow both directions . . . You will likely have to explain why you pointed a firearm with a 3.5 oz trigger at someone that you didn't intend to shoot, too.
 
I'm certain thats what he meant. Apex doesn't make one that light. Actually I don't know of anyone who makes 'em that light. The lightest I've seen was 2lb and crisp.
 
Massad Ayoob, triggers, NY-1/NY-2 Glock modifications....

I'd say if the after-market APEX system helps improve your use of the Smith & Wesson M&P then it's okay but I would not go any lower on the trigger pull.

Well known gun writer, legal use-of-force expert & sworn LE officer; Massad Ayoob has wrote a few articles about trigger pulls/custom features.
Ayoob has stated he puts the "NY-01" or New York-01 version of the Glock trigger on all his personal Glock pistols(duty-protection). This Glock trigger system was started by the New York State Police. Other heavier weights are also available but as Massad Ayoob says, they are not required for a duty Glock.
The NYPD modifys the Glocks with a heavy 8lb pull.

I agree with Ayoob & other top tactics-firearms instructors that a carry/duty trigger pull should be no less than 5lb.
I also prefer DA only hammer fired pistols like the HK/LEM, SIG-Sauer/DAK, Beretta C format, etc. Some striker fired pistols like the M&P XDm & Glock can work well but I would not tamper with the pulls a lot.
Lawyers or criminal investigators/prosecutors may dig for any bit or shred to use against you in the aftermath of a critical incident(lethal force event).

If you do want to have action work done, have a top gunsmith hone the revolver or pistol not lower the weight. A light or "hair trigger" may be an issue later.
ClydeFrog
 
I have also heard Mr. Ayoob make the point that civil lawyers have been known to claim that an otherwise legal self defense shooting was actually a negligent discharge in their efforts to win money for their clients.
 
your right, 3.5lbs not oz. Don't hold me to that, somebody that measured it told me it was around 3.5 while I've had others say it felt more like 4.5, but yes it does have the Apex DCAEK kit on it.
 
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David Bowie, Ayoob...

That's true to an extent. Massad Ayoob has wrote & spoke at length about how civil/criminal court lawyers use a firearm or it's custom features to push an agenda/legal arguement.
The main point is to AVOID these legal issues from the start by making smart choices & having a plan BEFORE a critical incident.
I use LE type sidearms & high quality, factory made ammunition for duty-protection because I want to lower the chances of bogus claims or "red herrings" in a use of force event.
The recent Zimmerman incident in Sanford Florida is a good example.
I've already read & saw a few legal "experts" and media reporters saying the pistol may have discharged by accident or by improper handling.
A "light" or target type trigger may be hard to defend in court under some conditions.

I'd add that top pistolsmith & sworn LE officer(SWAT), David Bowie of Bowie Tactical Concepts, does trigger work/actions on the M&P series. He'd be a good resource for protection-duty M&P work.
CF
 
I do not see what the difference would be between a carry gun and a nightstand gun. Same purpose. The use against and assailant in dire circumstances. If anything, the nightstand gun, if used, will be used in such circumstances that you may want a slightly heavier pull. You will be in the dark, and perhaps not even fully awake.

As for a carry gun, I do think having work done to such a degree that a negligent discharge may occur under stress is an issue. I also think that having quality work done, work that is within sane bounds, and allows more precise shooting due to better and more consistent trigger manipulation is a non issue.
 
Why would there be any difference between having a lightened trigger on a CCW gun as opposed to a nightstand gun? I don't see any meaningful distinction.

I would think a light trigger would only be a problem if you shot someone without necessarily meaning to. Note that this is actually a real problem, as evidenced by law enforcement trends towards DAO revolvers and more recently, heavier triggers for Glocks.
 
carrying a gun with a modified trigger

Carrying a gun with a modified trigger could get you in trouble but, you have to be able to hot what you are aiming at. If you can not then, you can hit innocent bystanders, building, cars, etc.
For a revolver, get a POLICE TUNE.
I don't know what it is for a semi-auto.
 
kozak hit it dead on. A good shoot is a good shoot regardless of the weapon used or how it was modified or tuned. However, there are some prosecutors who will grab at anything they can find or dream up to show that (a) you "accidentally" shot the creep (b) your trigger was modified to be so light that you were not in control of it. If you end up with one of them then the odds will be stacked against you. You have to understand how much hinges upon the attorney's ability to confuse a jury who most probably don't know anything about firearms or shooting them and how much a judge will allow a jury to listen to. Once you enter a courtroom you're in an environment where logic and reason can be bent and distorted and twisted and just like the media's use of gun control lies that are believed by an uneducated public can be used put you away. It may be the best sytem we have come up with but it is FAR from fair or perfect. A 4 to 5 pound trigger is PLENTY light enough for street use. As others have said being able to place the shot exactly where you need it is far more important than a light trigger. 2 to 3 lb. triggers are for range use only.
 
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drail said:
...A good shoot is a good shoot regardless of the weapon used...
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We really need to stifle this "a good shoot is a good shoot" business.

You will not have the final say on whether or not your use of lethal force was justified. Other people will be deciding that. So if you think you were justified but the DA and/or grand jury disagree, it's not a "good shoot" unless your trial jury decides that it was. See, for example --

This couple, arrested in early April and finally exonerated under Missouri's Castle Doctrine in early June. And no doubt after incurring expenses for bail and a lawyer, as well as a couple of month's anxiety, before being cleared.

Larry Hickey, in gun friendly Arizona: He was arrested, spent 71 days in jail, went through two different trials ending in hung juries, was forced to move from his house, etc., before the DA decided it was a good shoot and dismissed the charges.

Mark Abshire in Oklahoma: Despite defending himself against multiple attackers on his own lawn in a fairly gun-friendly state with a "Stand Your Ground" law, he was arrested, went to jail, charged, lost his job and his house, and spent two and a half years in the legal meat-grinder before finally being acquitted.

Harold Fish, also in gun friendly Arizona: He was still convicted and sent to prison. He won his appeal, his conviction was overturned, and a new trial was ordered. The DA chose to dismiss the charges rather than retry Mr. Fish.

Gerald Ung: He was attacked by several men, and the attack was captured on video. He was nonetheless charged and brought to trial. He was ultimately acquitted.

Some good folks in clear jeopardy and with no way to preserve their lives except by the use of lethal force against other humans. Yet that happened under circumstances in which their justification for the use of lethal force was not immediately clear. While each was finally exonerated, it came at great emotional and financial cost. And perhaps there but for the grace of God will go one of us.

And note also that two of those cases arose in States with a Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground law in effect at the time.

drail said:
...there are some prosecutors who will grab at anything they can find or dream up...
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That's generally the idea. But I'd prefer to put it that the prosecutor, just as any good lawyer, will use whatever is available that could further the interests of his client. In the case of a prosecutor, his client is the state, and his client wants a conviction.

In any case, the issue for each of us is whether there are ways to avoid giving a prosecutor things he could possibly use against our interests if we ever need to use a gun in self defense.
 
What the problem is, and always will be, is that you are completely at the mercy of a prosecutor or civil law attorney who may want you to fry,and a jury of susceptible minds that may even have their own desire to see you fry.

No matter how morally innocent you are of wrongdoing, it is the duty of the prosecutor to do his best to hold you accountable for any possible legal violation, or of the civil lawyer to hold you accountable for any non criminal but still improper behaviors. Your lawyer's duty is to take your case, innocent or guilty, and do whatever he can to keep you from being held accountable.

The important thing is to not engage in any behaviors that will give weight to a prosecutor's case. There are myriad things that can help a prosecutor portray you as irresponsible, and a trigger job is one of them. Any modifications can do that. A person is far safer buying a factory stock combat weapon than he is if he shows up in court with a pistol he customized into a "killing machine."

This is the way the system works. every move you make can trigger legal action. You can minimize that possibility, or you can worsen your chances.

For example, three rounds of 12 gauge 00 to the chest, two while the guy was already on the floor, will draw attention. 3 rounds of .38 is a lot less likely to raise questions about appropriate use of force. A guy with a glock and "black talons" or a .44 magnum will draw questions, where a guy with a standard 1911 may not.

Avoid things that raise red flags. Even if you are totally innocent of any wrongdoing, do you want to take the chance of drawing attention to yourself, and encouraging an attorney with unlimited taxpayer funds to make an example of you?
 
I think so long as it is a legal shoot you are fine. If it's a bad/questionable shoot or unintentional then I think you will have a worse time than if you had a stock pistol.
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Yep
 
Mr Ettin's post, Bob Ward: jury actions...

Mr Ettin's detailed post is worth reading.
I'd add the recent court trial of Bob Ward in the metro Orlando Florida area(Orange County).
Ward was convicted of shooting his wife in a domestic dispute with a Smith & Wesson Sc frame revolver(I think it was a .357magnum with .38spl ammunition).
The JURORS in the criminal trial asked the court judge to review the weapon. A jury member later told media reporters that several of the jury members pulled the revolver's trigger & inspected the weapon to see the actual trigger pull weight. To my limited knowledge most factory stock DA revolvers from Smith & Wesson run around 12-14lbs(trigger pull).
I made this point about juries & the Ward case a few months ago.
I'm NOT defending Bob Ward or his actions but I am saying it's a good example of why you(as a firearm owner) shouldn't be flip or cavalier about a weapon's design or how you may use it in a lethal force event.
I'd add that in either a home protection event or in a dark parking lot, you may be holding a violent subject at gunpoint or after shooting a subject need to stay calm & stable. A "race gun" trigger or "hair" trigger may be a serious liability.
 
The validity of your actions will be decided by a group of people who weren't there and who probably know very little about self defense. That's why I said once you're in a coutroom your troubles are only beginning.
 
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