Model 19 and M66 durability

L

Lavan

New member
I'd like to keep this thread focused on those two guns.

The M27 and 28 are stronger. So is a Python and a Ruger. And the L frames of Smiths.

But, there are so many stories (or myths) about the K-frame Smith .357 that I would like to hear some PERSONAL EXPERIENCES.

Have you worn either out? How many rounds? Do you usually just fire .38's in them? Ever crack a forcing cone? Factory load or handload? Any experiences or info on either M19 or M66.

If you have had any special experiences, would appreciate any details (bbl length, which model, ammo, etc.)

Appreciate any input on these 2 models of revolvers.

thanks.
 
Well, once upon a time I had a 2 1/2 inch model 66. I got it used, and there was no way of knowing how many rounds it had on it. A lot, I think, because it was already loosening up when I bought it.

At the time, I was seriously into full power defensive ammo, and I ran between three and four thousand rounds of 125 grain 357 Mag ammo through it on top of who knows how much ammo it had already fired.

I ended up stretching the frame. After a while the cylinder release didn't have enough reach to push the detent all the way out, so it must have been around 20-30 thousndths out of whack at that point.

I never measured it to find out, and it still shot fine. I ended up installing shims in the cylinder and modifying the ejector rod so it would work properly. I finally sold it to a guy who needed the parts.

I guess I am not too upset about the longevity, I was shooting a hell of a lot of really high powered ammo through it and knew what I was doing to the gun. Now I have a 686 but never carry it because it's too heavy. Go figure.

Anyways, that's my story. Hope it helps.
 
I got my model 19 used, an apparent police trade in. All of the internals, including chambers and bore, were flawless. After 300 rounds of 110 grain JHP Magnums, there is some erosion at the edge of the forcing cone. I think most of the durability problems associated with the 19/66 are related to shooting high velocity light weight (125 grains or less) bullets.
 
M 66

Some 20 years ago I owned a m 66.
Five years and about 12000 rounds ( most of them rather light loads ) it was worn out.
Absolutely.
My friend whom I had traded my Security Six shot this gun 10 years later and it was in good condition.
Now I shoot only Rugers.
Yes, I know the smith trigger is better....
 
MY M19 WAS BOUGHT NEW IN 1971. IT WAS MY PRIMARY 357MAG TEST GUN

And all-around shootin' gun for 15 years or so. At round 39,110 I shot the gasring in the cylinder loose, which tied it up tighter than a hundred dollar drum. A quick trip back to smith fixed it in less than ten days. It now has just a bit under 50,000 rounds through it about evenly divided between 357MAG amminition and 38SPECIAL ammunition.
The forcing cone is eroded a bit but this pistol still shoots like a million bucks and is still the fastest 4" 357MAG I've ever seen. It is faster than the vast majority of 6" 357MAGS.
I haven't shot it in years as other 357's came along and grabbed my attention.
AN S+W M19 IS STILL THE BEST ALL-AROUND DA 357MAG EVER MADE...IMHO [ I am right here so don't argue ]
 
I have about 6k rounds of .38 fired through my Model 66 and it has about zero wear on it. Of course, I clean it and lube it a lot better than most people. I also use synth grease which protects better than oil and stays put.

I have a 686 with about 20k rounds on it with little wear, still shoots perfect.

If you plan to shoot a lot of magnums, get the 686 rather than the 66 because the former has a full-sized forcing cone, the latter's is trimmed to fit the smaller frame. The 686 is just a stronger gun. Also, one of the best designed wheelguns ever made.
 
I have a model 66 that I got used from a Police department about 1980, that had God only knows how many rounds through it. I used it in a Reserve Police position for six years, qualifying monthly and winning matches at the end of each year in Expert and Master Classes. The forcing cone leads up pretty fast when using lead. The front of the cylinder also leads up pretty fast when shooting lead bullets, especially full wad-cutter. No problems whatsoever shooting jacketed bullets. Mostly 38 +p's were shot through it, but probably 10% was .357 Magnum. Still one of the sweetest triggers, very accurate and nicest shooting guns around. Sorry, no horror story.
 
My father had a 6" 19. Shot well over 10,000 rounds of full power 357 in it (mostly 158 grain HP's). Sent it back to the factory for a check-up 2 years ago came back with a clean bill of health.

I no smith to be sure but FWIW I've heard the issue of frame stretching normally only occurs if you keep shooting it once it's overly loose. If you have the factory care for endshake or other issues as needed instead of blasting away ignoring the problem you will likely not run into this.
 
I have a mid 70s model 19 that has been shot so much that the knurling on the cylinder release is wearing smooth on the edges from thumb abraision during reloading. Round count about 70,000 target loads and a few thousand full tilt n boogie Mag loads. The 19 is still tight, in time, smooth triggered and a tack driver. Hardly any bullets lighter than 148gr.

Not a 66, but it's similar big brother in stainless...
I had a 686 that required timing work about every six months. If it was used for "fast n fancy" shooting, it would go out of time in just a few hundred rounds. The timing problem is mostly manifested in hand pivot and hand end wear. I ask Smith if the rapid hand wear problem was due to stainless parts and the answer was yes. This gun is now shot out. Out of tolerance in many places. Front latch locking bolt worn, hole in barrel lug where locking bolt lives worn. Cylinder center pin worn. Hole in frame recoil plate where cylinder center pin locks at the rear worn. Crane pivot worn. Hole in frame for crane pivot worn. Cylinder stop worn, notches in cylinder for cylinder stop worn, window in frame for cylinder stop worn. Every contact point inside the cylinder assembly worn. This gun has been used with mostly light .38spec loads and NO over spec .38 or .357 ammo. It has been lubed and kept clean internally.

Round count. 30,000 live and 30,000 dryfire. Approx 10,000 cylinder openings and closings. Plum wore it out in two years while my 19s keep on tickin.

Sam
 
Above is the first time I have actually heard a first-person account of wearing out a K frame magnum. Still think it was a fluke and that particular gun was flawed somehow.

Can't count how many K frame magnums I have had or known with thousands upon thousands of full-power loads fired with no sign of ditress. I believe the L frame came out to make a heavier gun for the wave of female officers in the 1980s who complained of excessive recoil.
 
I believe C. R. Sam, but think he must have one of the early stainless guns made before they figured out the right heat treatments. Later M66's don't even HAVE stainless lockwork; they used regular carbon steel parts. For a time, these were flash-chromed, then they just used the same as they did on blued guns.

My M66 was bought new in 1990, is carried almost daily in a Bianchi Model 5BHL (basketweave, lined,thumbsnap) holster, and is about new, except for a faint scratch where a screwdriver slipped. I've surely shot it a few thousand times, maybe half with magnums, but mostly 158 grain bullets.

I've also owned six M19's, and had no trouble, but a now deceased detective back in the 1970's used to shoot a lot of Super-Vel ammo with light bullets, and he'd trade in an M19 with cylinder endshake at least every couple of years. I knew the dealer where he'd trade guns, and all had endshake.

I like the M19/66 as an all-round item, but would advise owning an M686 or M27 for most heavy magnum firing. And a round-butt M65 with three-inch bbl. for under-the-coat wear. Man can't have too many .357's. Very versatile cartridge, and .38 Specials will work for plinking and small game. Heck, even a polar bear has been killed with a .38 lead Plus P!

I like the Combat Magnum!

Terry Murbach: thanks for checking in on this. I recall that gun from when you wrote about guns.

Lone Star
 
Terry Murbach-

Come to think of it, when that gas ring shot loose, how did you open the gun? You'd have had to unload it to send it back to S&W.

Hopefully, this will never happen to me. I know S&W relocated that gas ring where it wouldn't shoot loose or overheat on stainless guns and tie up the gun. You've presumably read Ayoob's comments on that...

Lone Star
 
A shooting buddy of mine put about 4,600 rounds of full power 158 grain and 124 grain magnums through his dads model 19 over the course of a year or two.
Eventually the cylinder got very loose and sloppy and was a bit out of time. He then bought a .45 auto and switched over to that.
He could have sent the Smith back to the factory to be retimed back in them days for a whopping $50.
That's the nice thing about revolvers. If you have a barrell, cyinder and frame you can rebiuld them two or three times if needed.
Conversely, another friend of mine had a Model 19 that had about 8,000 roundso f 38 spl through it. It shot as well as it did when he bought it in the early seventies.
 
HEY LONE STAR, THANKS FOR REMEMBERING!!!

I used a big mallet in my left hand and banged the snot out of it while pushing the cylinder release with my right thumb. At the time I figgered it was one of my handloads, 358156;14.4gr 2400, that had tied it up. Once I got it open and the brass fell into my hand I knew it was something else. Took the cylinder crane off and shipped it all back to Smith who had it back to me in about a week, no charge.
My 6" M19 is also one hell of a good 357 sixgun that shoots hot 357mag-125jhp's like the finest of target ammunition. Haven't shot this 6" gun in years either....nor the M586 8 3/8" silouette gun....nor the M27's...shucks, I hardly ever shoot DA sixguns anymore. The SA sixguns are in use every week it seems though of late my M624 44SPL and the M625 45ACP MG have been getting regular exercise as the Colt NF 44SPL is off getting some custom work and the Colt SAA 45ACP lost its' cylinder latch and I'll be double-D damned if I can find a spring for it; found the latch and nut but no dang springs. I was gonna call Eddie Janis for a new one as he had done the custom work on this 45 sixgun but it's sorta embarrassing to call up and admit to letting a part fall off your sixgun...sorta like saying duuuuh, I'm effin' drainbamaged, kinya hep me....L O L
 
I had a 2 1/2" 66 that shot outstanding with full power loads. I had bought the gun used, but it was tight when I bought it. After about 1000 rounds or so it started to loosen up and the accuracy went to pot. Of course the gun may have had 10,000 rounds through it by the time I got it. I still love the 66's, but I'll stick to the 686 for extended hot load shooting.
 
Lone Star...
Twas not lockwork that put the 686 down for the count.

Barrel lug worn so that new front latch still wobbly.
Recoil plate rear latch hole football shaped.
Window in bottom of frame battered from cylinder bolt.
Window in recoil plate for hand battered (wide).
Hole in frame for crane pivot worn.

Lockwork maint and update no biggie.
Frames and barrels nuther story.

Sam
 
Shame on Terry Murbach

Shame on you Terry, not shooting those guns in years. I bought my own 686 years ago after reading an article you wrote on them. I am crushed....
 
Let's see how good my "Cut 'n' Paste" skills are...from a past thread here on a similar subject...

How "weak" is any gun? The Model 19 will withstand a fair amount of shooting with full-Magnum ammo...I have a mid-1970's production Model 19 that "shook loose" after 14,000 or so rounds...2,500 were factory Maggies. After a trip to Springfield, it was good as new...for a while! After ANOTHER 11,000 rounds, its again in need of a tune-up...tho' it HAS NOT yet started to "spit" or have misfires, which it DID DO before being sent back the first time...but its getting close! FWIW, I've got an early-production Model 586(blued L-frame)that has gone 35,000 rounds...just now getting some real "wear" on it...only about 3,500 rounds thru the 586 have been factory Magnums...the rest have ranged from "Plus-P" .38's to mild .38 wadcutters. Most in "the Industry" have opined that what WILL wear a "medium-frame" .357 FASTEST is the use of the 125-gr Magnum loads...the ones that have the best "Stopping Power" ratings. If you use 158-gr. Magnum loads in moderation, I don't think longevity of a Model 19/66 would become a concern for many, many moons....Mikey357

BTW, that thread was "Just how weak is the S&W 19"...from early Jan., 2001...FWIW....mikey357
 
Well, the truth is, the .357 Magnum is a violently abusive cartridge, and the K-frame guns were designed for .38 Special a century ago. Everything considered, we're lucky that they hold up as well as they do.

Back in the 1970's, the H.P. White Lab was charged with the responsibility of firing tremendous amounts of ammo through a variety of handguns in a short period of time. The tests, paid for by the US Government, were intended to cause some guns to perform poorly, giving said Gov. an excuse to try to ban them. The M19 snub fired went through about 4500 rounds of Super-Vel before it broke some internal part (the hand?) that could be easily replaced by a gunsmith. It fired all that ammo in a few days ' time, I believe. Among the very few guns to endure those trials and still emerge unbroken and fully functional were the Colt Government .45 and the S&W M10.

In about 1988, S&W added an "endurance package" to the K-frame Mags. They changed the yoke screw to one that limits or precludes cylinder endshake, heat-treated the yoke and certain other parts; maybe did another thing or two. The guns made since are supposed to stand up much better. This was specifically for M19/66 type guns: it's not to be confused with a similar program for N-frame .44 Magnums.

I think the M19 and 66 will do okay, as long as they're not shot a lot (especially in fast double-action work) with magnum loads, especially the 125 grain stuff. If I could have only one handgun, it would be the S&W M66 with four-inch barrel. I wouldn't run it full time on magnums, but could use them as needed... which isn't as often as some think.

Lone Star
 
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