(MO) "Deer Doggers" Get Hit With Suspension

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Drizzt

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Copyright 2002 St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Inc.
St. Louis Post-Dispatch


August 10, 2002 Saturday Five Star Lift Edition

SECTION: SPORTS ; Pg. 23

LENGTH: 634 words

HEADLINE: "DEER DOGGERS" GET HIT WITH SUSPENSIONS

BYLINE: Tim Renken Of The Post-Dispatch

BODY:
At first glance it may have appeared that the Missouri Conservation Commission at its July meeting suspended the hunting and fishing privileges of half the men in Reynolds County.

Such suspensions usually are rare, maybe one or two a month. Or none. Only serious, persistent violators get suspensions, in which they can not legally hunt, fish or trap for a year or two or, rarely, more. In July, though, 42 people got suspensions, all but three for the same violation, hunting deer with dogs, "deer dogging." Almost all of these men are from a relatively small area of the eastern Ozarks. They live in the small towns of Ellington, Black, Boss, Centerville, Bunker, Lesterville, etc. The list does contain some prominent citizens, including Reynolds County sheriff Gary Barton.

All of these men were caught in a special operation by the Department of Conservation and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in 1998 and 1999. In this operation an agent lived under cover, pretending to be one of those who liked to hunt deer with hounds.

During the deer season, deer doggers turn their dogs loose in the woods, then follow the pack in vehicles so that they can be at favored deer crossing spots to shoot the deer as they run by. It's a social sport, with hunters usually coordinating things by CB radio.

Deer dogging is illegal in most states because it is hard on the deer and despised by most other hunters and many landowners.

It is still legal over much of Arkansas, where political opposition has prevented the Game and Fish Commission from banning it. Dogging hasn't been legal in Missouri since the 1920s, when deer restoration began. Biologists say that it's not a coincidence that the part of the Ozarks where dogging persists has never had a deer population nearly as large as the habitat will support.

Dogging does persist, though, in the hills of Reynolds and Iron counties because a significant number of residents there tolerate and even practice it.

"Some of these people are chronic violators, but some are good people who firmly believe they have a God-given right to take game in the traditional ways," said Dennis Steward, protection chief of the Department of Conservation. "But it is controversial even there. We get complaints almost on a daily basis during the deer season, and at other times, from residents who object to this on their property and who see it going on so flagrantly.

"By its very nature, it is a difficult violation to prove. Lots of the people who do it don't even own the dogs. Undercover operations are an extreme measure, dangerous and costly. And they are especially tricky in areas where laws being violated are controversial."

Ken West, supervisor of the department's southeastern office in Cape Girardeau, said that agents already knew who many of the violators were before the undercover operation began.

"We had 70 or 80 names to begin with," he said. "In 2000 some were cited in violations witnessed by our people, some after being named by other violators. At one time this thing sort of snowballed for us, with people who were turned in turning in others."

Not all of the cases made in the operation have been settled yet. And not all of the people cited were charged. The federal prosecutor decided to file only one charge per family in some of the cases to keep from wrecking those families financially.

Most of those on the suspension list were charged in federal court in Cape Girardeau. They paid collateral fines ranging from $500-$2,500.

Barton, the sheriff, told the Post-Dispatch that he didn't pay his fine of $500, but that he "forfeited collateral to clear the case." He said he is innocent and that he and others in the area are planning to fight their suspensions in court.

"I don't even own dogs," he said.
 
Very controversial subject. It's legal here in SC. There are growing incidents of friction between dog drivers (local term) and folks who hate having the deer on their land driven off.

Hasn't been a shooting yet. But that day is approaching.
 
Hunting deer with dogs is like many other variations of the hunting sport: It works okay, and does no particular harm, when few partake and the area population is sparse.

Like before WW II.

I remember about 20 years ago when I happened along US 98 south of Tallahassee, Florida on the opening day of deer season. Hunting was allowed to begin at noon.

Both sides of the highway were lined for over two miles with pickup trucks having dog-cages in the back; two or three guys per truck. This was Appalachicola National Forest country.

Not my style, thanks.

Now: A couple of guys, hunting a few thousand acres? No big deal. Doesn't matter what I think; they won't do any notable harm, and they will indeed have fun.

Art
 
Chasing deer with dogs, CB's, and in trucks leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I would never partake in it.

As long as it's legal (I'm in Arkansas) though I won't condemn those that do it.

Kilgor
 
Varies by state, I guess. Clearly legal in some places. Not in NY. Conservation laws here permit peace officers (not hunters) to shoot dogs running deer. I've heard (but have not confirmed) that there are states that permit private citizens to shoot dogs running deer.
 
We still have dog seasons here in Louisiana. Personally there is no sweeter sound than a pack of (take your choice) beagles, walkers, blueticks, black and tans, etc., running and howling through the swamps.

Is it a surefire way to get deer? In one word NO. It works ............ sometimes.

I have had far more success still hunting than running dogs. Where we hunt in the Tunica Hills the deer harvest went up when we STOPPED using dogs.

I honestly believe that those that oppose dog hunting think that it is a lethal way to hunt like headlighting. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

I will admit that it is not a method to be used in urban areas but in the marshes or swamps it is an ethical and useful method...............not guaranteed to succeed but fun to do.

Here in Louisiana there are a lot of places that deer can hole up where it is impossible for a hunter to go.............the flottants in the marsh are one, some places in the swamps are another. Dogs can get in there and move the deer, but if the standers are not alert or in the right spot ole Mr. buck just slips away.............I know I have seen it happen. I have seen full grown 8 points running belly to the ground and even 25 yards off they are hard to see.

I saw an old doe in the Tunica Hills one time in a creek bottom with the dogs running her. She was loping along about 200 yards ahead of the dogs, stopping every few yards to listen. When she got to a big spot in the creek bottom she circled twice, stopped then jumped about 10 feet or so to the side off of her trail and bounded off. A minute or so later the dogs got to that spot. They followed the circle, got confused and went back the way they came cold trailing. Deer made a clean get away.

Now I have heard of places where trucks and CB's are used but a real dog hunter will not use this method...............besides that if anyone can get a truck in the basin or marsh it better have a 150HP Mercury on the tailgate or it will never move :D.
 
Yep it's still legal in Florida, although several years ago the state enacted the "Hunter Responsibility Rule."

Basically all dogs must be collered with owner's information. If a dog trespasses on private property the owner is at fault, and is usually warned on the first offense, the ticketed afterwards.

Camp Blanding, a National Guard post, had one of the largest dog hunt areas in North Florida, but due to 9-11 that area has been continually closed off for training. Now the dog hunters want it reopened, or at least the ability to run dogs on the areas still open for hunting.

I think that in Florida dog hunting is on the decline. I look for it to have about 5-10 more years on state property, then after that only legal on private property.
 
Well, it's not legal to do it here in AZ and I don't think it would work very well in our terrain. I guess it's fine in the places that it's legal as long as they don't trespass. I don't know about y'all, but I don't want any strangers on my land without permission, not that anyone would hunt on my 1/4 acre surburban lot. But still, you have to respect a landowner's right and if they don't want you doggin deer on their land, you'd better keep out.
 
Well, Fuzzy, chasing with dogs has never been all that popular in the West. A small amount for bear and cougar, on public lands, is about it. It's far more rational in heavily forested country, such as in the southeastern states.

One aspect of it has been overlooked: The passing of another sub-culture. The homogenization of the U.S. since WW II has been an ongoing, creeping, process. Anybody who does something outside mainstream thinking gets vilified and "lawed against".

Can't have independent thinkers, now, can we?

Art
 
as posted by Fuzzy:

I guess it's fine in the places that it's legal as long as they don't trespass.
Click to expand...

That is the problem, at least here in North Florida, most dog hunters do not respect private property. The dog doesn't know he's trepassing, and the owner of the dog doesn't care. Another frequent complaint is that they line the roadway awaiting the deer/dogs arrival and refuse anyone to utilize the roadway.

Personally I've been dog hunting once. Didn't like it 15 years ago, still don't like. I'd rather still hunt.
 
So what's the difference between hunting using a dog and hunting with a dog? If I take my middle-aged golden retriever out in the field with me during a deer hunt, but he never leaves my side, is this a deer-hunting crime? I know the dog would enjoy getting out into the wild, as I do. He wouldn't know what to do with a deer scent anymore than he does a cat scent here in the 'burbs.'
 
C'mon, now, Chipster; you're quibbling.

Deer dogs know exactly what they're about, just as a pointer or retriever knows what it's about. It's not at all about "in company with".

The real-world problem in some areas is as swampgator pointed out.

Consider if the chased deer runs through your cow herd, with a bunch of dogs behind. Broken fences, cut-up cattle...

Some folks love the sound of hounds baying on a trail. Others react as would an opera lover to nihilistic-rock "music".

:), Art
 
I know there is a real problem in some areas, with some methods of hunting. I just thought thread contributors might know if taking a pet (not a working dog) out in the field while hunting was a crime or a violation. I suppose as the retriever is defined by the AKC as a working dog that a game warden would be confused when I say "but officer, he sleeps all day in an air conditioned house."
 
There are areas (states?) where having a dog leashed in camp when deer hunting is legal. The dog(s) may be used to track wonded deer which might otherwise be lost.

Stipulating your dog might indeed stay by your side when deer are seen, and you are hunting Bambi: In Texas, it would be a judgement call on the part of a game warden as to an offense. Probably, the issue would be "direct control" as well as obvious use of a dog in the chase.

There's a lot of gray area and judgement here. It's hard to make a case of hunting deer with a dog if it's some little fice which is a good squirrel dog. I doubt an LEO would try to make a case that you're hunting Bambi with your Attack Chihuahua.

:), Art
 
Chip,

In Florida having a dog with you while hunting isn't illegal. In fact it's a widely accepted practice to use a dog to trail wounded game.

The problem is with "unleased/uncontrolled" running dogs, as well as the problems associated with "dog hunters" as I pointed out above.
 
Except for the obvious disrespect to private property and passers-by on the roadside, huntin with dogs is a lazy, nasty, disrespectful method of "hunting", if that's what you really call it. Dog hunting is a disgrace to the sport, and an embarassment to me, as a sportsman.

If you can't catch it yourself, you don't deserve the kill. There isn't enough of an advantage having a gun (or feeders, lures, deer stands, etc) against the game, that you have to use dogs to shush'm right to your truck?

Guess how you get a properly fed dog to "pack up" and chase down deer? Improper feeding. Deny it if you want, but I witness what those dogs go through during the year. Holed up in tiny 6x8 cages, or packed together 25 head to a 25' square. Never getting let out to run, explore, or enjoy their dreary existence. Fed the crappiest dogfood on the market, to save money on having to feed them, and some (most?) being starved for at least a few days before the hunt.

Would you let your kid's snauzer go without Pedigree dogfood, without daily walks with their master, or without getting let inside for extreme weather? Why not, because it's cruel? Well, that's only the tip of the iceberg for what pack dogs have to go through. The only highlight in their entire lives are getting let out of their cages for a few days here and there, only near deer season, and getting to stretch their legs for a few short moments. When the deer is bagged, it's back to the cage.

What's next? Packs of wild howling butchers, so the meat can be cut and packaged for you when it comes out of the woods? Shall we cook it for ya next, maybe using child labor?

I would've hoped for worse sentencing for the offenders. There's a reason pack hunting is illegal - it's an atrosity to the sport.




Not that I'm opinionated on this particular subject or anything.;)
 
I'm not a dog hunter with any species. However, dog hunting is legal in Georgia with certain caveats. You must have permission of the landowner. Even if you lease the land. You cannot kill any deer that your dogs have chased onto property that you don't have permission for. You can have problems if your dogs repeatedly trespass even if you do not kill those deer on that land. You cannot legally shoot from any public road or within a certain distance of the road right of way (I believe it is fifty yards.) You cannot use radios to coordinate any taking of any game species in Georgia. It is not allowed on public lands. We've got plenty of deer. The season limit has just been increased to ten. The crossbow has just been ok'ed for archery season.

SC is actually overpopulated with deer. Season there starts in mid August and runs through the end of the year.

What about folks that use dogs to find wild hogs and a catch dog to hold them for the hunter...and then kill them with a knife? Think that's sporting...when the hog gets loose just as you get set to stab?
 
Uhh, ya, that's sportin. Let me grab this guy you don't like. I'll hold him, you stab him.

That's sportin all right.:rolleyes:



...or is it just bein "stabby"?
 
yankytrash, you ever seen a big feral hog? 300 or more pounds of POed Pork, just stepping on you, is gonna be a problem.

The dog's hanging on, the hog's spinning around and thrashing about and you're trying to not cut yourself or the dog or get stepped on or knocked into a tree trunk or boulder...And in the midst of all this "fun" you're trying to stab that big, ugly SOB in a killing-spot.

Hog-hunting with a knife, without a dog? Hey, pick out a stick and go to whittlin'. You can't run near as fast nor as long as a hog.

I got one little bit of advice should you run across somebody who's killed a hog with a knife: The last thing on God's Green Earth you ever want to do is aggravate that feller! He's tough, tougher'n woodpecker lips!

:D, Art
 
...and not to mention, he's stabby!;) Or, I might just ask him why he didn't leave the dog home and bring a 44. Quicker and much more painless (and humane) for all involved.

...but then again, it doesn't cure one's need to be stabby, I guess.


Maybe this deer seaon, I'll snare a buck, hang him by his ankles, go to the town square, and pummel him to death. After all, there's no law against it, right? It's deer season and I'm killing deer, right?
 
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