Minute of Deer
- Thread starter wjarrell
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The Verminator
Moderator
That would be 2.39 give or take a smidge.
reynolds357
New member
The problem is that the group never "grows constantly with distance."
tahunua001
New member
1.5 inches theoretically however there are a few things to take into account.
1. you are never going to be as stable in the field as you are at the shooting bench. a 1.5 inch group at the range does not mean that you'll be able to hold steady enough to maintain that accuracy in the field. as such, you would probably want less than that, probably less than 1 inch groups.
2. multiplying 1.5 times 4 is 6 inches, the average kill zone on a small deer (I know mulies are usually bigger but it's best to plan for worst case scenario). however that is not factoring in wind which could shift your shot as much as 12 inches over that range if depending on the cartridge you're shooting. the animal could also move. at 400 yards it takes about a 3rd of a second for the bullet to get there, the animal can't move that much in 3rd of a second but it could mean the difference between a nicked pair of lungs and a clean miss of all vital organs.
3. lastly is the cartridge you plan to shoot. some just don't have a whole lot of energy left by 400 yards and depending on the velocity, weight, and ballistic coefficient of the projectile you're using could mean the difference between 25 inches of bullet drop and 107 inches in bullet drop. unless you're a very good shot, know your rifle inside and out and know the exact trajectory of your ammo and the exact range of your animal, your odds of wounding, without delivering a lethal blow are pretty steep.
1. you are never going to be as stable in the field as you are at the shooting bench. a 1.5 inch group at the range does not mean that you'll be able to hold steady enough to maintain that accuracy in the field. as such, you would probably want less than that, probably less than 1 inch groups.
2. multiplying 1.5 times 4 is 6 inches, the average kill zone on a small deer (I know mulies are usually bigger but it's best to plan for worst case scenario). however that is not factoring in wind which could shift your shot as much as 12 inches over that range if depending on the cartridge you're shooting. the animal could also move. at 400 yards it takes about a 3rd of a second for the bullet to get there, the animal can't move that much in 3rd of a second but it could mean the difference between a nicked pair of lungs and a clean miss of all vital organs.
3. lastly is the cartridge you plan to shoot. some just don't have a whole lot of energy left by 400 yards and depending on the velocity, weight, and ballistic coefficient of the projectile you're using could mean the difference between 25 inches of bullet drop and 107 inches in bullet drop. unless you're a very good shot, know your rifle inside and out and know the exact trajectory of your ammo and the exact range of your animal, your odds of wounding, without delivering a lethal blow are pretty steep.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
I figure that one MOA would be right at a guarantee. I built a 500-yard range at my house. My pet '06 was always sub-MOA by a little bit, at 100 yards. It was the same at 500 yards--which was quite pleasing, of course. 
Most of my deer were killed inside of 200 yards. But, one at 450 and one at 350. In each case, the point of impact was within an inch of my intended spot.
Most of my deer were killed inside of 200 yards. But, one at 450 and one at 350. In each case, the point of impact was within an inch of my intended spot.
mxsailor803
New member
I've only killed 2 animals at 400yds (402 and 407 to be exact). Both were taken with the same rifle (R700 ADL .270 with my handloads). To start off, my first was a wild hog in our field. When I say hog, I mean big hog. Our scales went to 500lbs and he bottomed them out. So it was a big vitals for him. The second is my 10 point I killed in WV a few years ago. The round went right through his heart (I'm claiming more luck than skill on this one). DRT. Now could I have moved in closer? Not really. The setups would've held my chances back quite a bit. Now for my hunting rifles, they must all stay within a 1 inch 3 shot group at 100yds. I say 3 shots because more than likely, I wouldn't be lucky enough to even get a second shot off. My only exception is my .44mag's. Those I never expected a 1 inch 100yd group but at 50yds, it better do that. Its one of those things that I would want as tight of group as possible to minimize "its the gun" excuses. Also, practice at those ranges. Knowing how your rifle with your ammo reacts to different ranges is just as important as knowing a 100yd group. And don't solely rely on a ballistic calculator. Just because some computer says it will do this or that, doesn't mean that you and your rifle can.
Theoretically a rifle/shooter capable of shooting 1"groups at 100 yards will shoot 4" groups at 400 yards. In the real world that rarely happens. A 6" grouping at 400 yards is much more realistic if you are usually around 1" at 100. Lots of factors come into play. The wind doesn't have much time to effect anything at 100, it can blow you off several inches at 400.
buck460XVR
New member
The minute of deer to me is the shooter being able to put every shot into a 6'' circle on the kill zone of the animal at the distance it is at. This is a long way from MOA of the firearm. Just because the firearm or the caliber is capable of making the shot, not every hunter is.
Jack O'Conner
New member
I've killed almost 2 dozen mulies in the past 30 years. My hunts have taken me to California, Nebraska, and South Dakota. My longest shot ever was approx 175 yards. My older lever action .308 Savage has never let me down.
Jack
Jack
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I've hunted deer with implements that had quite poor accuracy(shotgun slugs 20 years ago) and swore not to do that ever again.
I have the option to use any number of rifle/cartridge combinations but normally choose something that gives me under 1" groups @ 100 yards. I don't always have the entire deer to shoot at or maybe I want to take a neck shot to preserve meat.
I've seen jokers trying to make 300 yard shots with a 3-4 MOA rifle and wished I could smack them with a club. Sure they hit once in a while-legs, belly, where ever and occasionally even killed the animal. One guy actually commented "I'm not a very good shot so I can probably hit more if the rifle doesn't hit exactly where I'm aiming".
I have the option to use any number of rifle/cartridge combinations but normally choose something that gives me under 1" groups @ 100 yards. I don't always have the entire deer to shoot at or maybe I want to take a neck shot to preserve meat.
I've seen jokers trying to make 300 yard shots with a 3-4 MOA rifle and wished I could smack them with a club. Sure they hit once in a while-legs, belly, where ever and occasionally even killed the animal. One guy actually commented "I'm not a very good shot so I can probably hit more if the rifle doesn't hit exactly where I'm aiming".
At 400 yards, a great deal will depend on the cartridge. Few typical hunting cartridges are reliable, energy wise, past 300. And drop like bricks past there.
Another great deal of where you are. 400 yards is a very long way. Most hunters can't tell 400 from 200 and grossly over or under estimate distances. Typical farm fields, around here anyway, are 250ish wide.
That 10-11 inches is with a side view too. And more like 9". If you can consistently hit a 9" pie plate at 400, you're fine. If not don't take the shot. Forget the heart at 400. Think lungs.
Another great deal of where you are. 400 yards is a very long way. Most hunters can't tell 400 from 200 and grossly over or under estimate distances. Typical farm fields, around here anyway, are 250ish wide.
That 10-11 inches is with a side view too. And more like 9". If you can consistently hit a 9" pie plate at 400, you're fine. If not don't take the shot. Forget the heart at 400. Think lungs.
"I think anyone considering a 400 yard shot should actually shoot some 400 yard groups, not only to see what actually happens instead of calculating it, but to also get a good understanding and feeling ads to how far 400 yards."
I have a coyote bait sitting @ 350 yards from a quasi-benchrest that I can approach unseen. Using a very accurate rifle, my groups at that range run about 1.5-2" fired from a bipod with a support under the toe of the butt. Even with these advantages, the shooter has to be paying attention to trigger control and wind deflection at 350-400 yards. Without these "perks", I'd be very cautious about attempting such long shots.
I have a coyote bait sitting @ 350 yards from a quasi-benchrest that I can approach unseen. Using a very accurate rifle, my groups at that range run about 1.5-2" fired from a bipod with a support under the toe of the butt. Even with these advantages, the shooter has to be paying attention to trigger control and wind deflection at 350-400 yards. Without these "perks", I'd be very cautious about attempting such long shots.
Hunting rifle accuracy increases in MOA size about 15%, sometimes more, for each 100 yard range band past the first one. Here's why.
Muzzle velocity spread; as the bullets don't all leave at the same speed, those leaving faster will drop less than slower ones down range. For each 100 yards of range, the bullets drop more.
Small variables in the bullet's BC, they all are not the same as the slight amount of unbalance makes them wobble in flight which increases their drag lowering their BC. A 3 percent spread in BC is common with hunting bullets; they're not balanced as perfect as match bullets.
Subtle wind currents between the rifle and target that we cannot see moves the bullet in all directions. Wind's not the same at all points in the bullet's trajectory. And wind above the line of sight is typically faster than in the line of sight and it varies with terrain.
Regarding accuracy needed to hit the 10 inch animal vitals at 400 yards. The very best competitors shooting prone, slung up in their best position, will add 1.5 MOA on average to whatever groups size their rifle and ammo tests at. So, if your ammo tests 1/2 MOA at 400 yards, in a field position, it's gonna shoot 2 MOA hand held by you; if you're one of the best wind condition readers and know how to adjust for it.
Best wishes getting your hunting rifle to shoot 1/2 MOA at 400 yards; no worse, ever. Few match rifles do that. Remember the accuracy your stuff shoots worst at is what you have to deal with afield.
Muzzle velocity spread; as the bullets don't all leave at the same speed, those leaving faster will drop less than slower ones down range. For each 100 yards of range, the bullets drop more.
Small variables in the bullet's BC, they all are not the same as the slight amount of unbalance makes them wobble in flight which increases their drag lowering their BC. A 3 percent spread in BC is common with hunting bullets; they're not balanced as perfect as match bullets.
Subtle wind currents between the rifle and target that we cannot see moves the bullet in all directions. Wind's not the same at all points in the bullet's trajectory. And wind above the line of sight is typically faster than in the line of sight and it varies with terrain.
Regarding accuracy needed to hit the 10 inch animal vitals at 400 yards. The very best competitors shooting prone, slung up in their best position, will add 1.5 MOA on average to whatever groups size their rifle and ammo tests at. So, if your ammo tests 1/2 MOA at 400 yards, in a field position, it's gonna shoot 2 MOA hand held by you; if you're one of the best wind condition readers and know how to adjust for it.
Best wishes getting your hunting rifle to shoot 1/2 MOA at 400 yards; no worse, ever. Few match rifles do that. Remember the accuracy your stuff shoots worst at is what you have to deal with afield.
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I don't think I would take a 400 yard shot with out a bench or going prone with a bipod.
My shooting range goes out to 1000 yards. And I am pretty good hitting the gong with my 45-70 but id never shoot an animal at that range. With my primary rifle (357 magnum) I limit my shot to 120 yards with my 45-70 ill go out to about 200-250
My shooting range goes out to 1000 yards. And I am pretty good hitting the gong with my 45-70 but id never shoot an animal at that range. With my primary rifle (357 magnum) I limit my shot to 120 yards with my 45-70 ill go out to about 200-250