I assume that there would be no problem, but I was wondering if there's any problem with having my 17 y/o carry a handgun in our military shop, open or concealed. I live in Michigan. He's trained and knowledgable and I obviously don't have any problem, is there any way we could be held liable for shootin an intruder if it's by a minor? Thanks.
Minor son carrying pistol on my property
- Thread starter Colvin
- Start date
You assume wrong. Never assume. Kudos for checking it out prior to letting him do so. According to the following link, the minimum age to open carry in MI is 18. Given that your son is 17, he could, in theory, be charged as an adult as well...Colvin said:
http://opencarry.org/age.html
According to this document from handgunlaw.us, the minimum age to obtain a concealed carry permit is 21. You can also find the link to the MSP website concerning firearms within the document.
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/michigan.pdf
Colvin said:
Trained and knowledgable makes no difference, really... And one can always be held liable for shooting an intruder (unless you're no-billed by the grand jury in states where you cannot be sued in civil court if cleard by the criminal court system).
American Made
New member
http://www.michbar.org/publications/pdfs/y&l.pdf
Can I carry a weapon with me for protection?
No, not if you intend to use the weapon. It is against Michigan
law to attack someone with a dangerous weapon, or to have the
dangerous weapon in your possession if you intend to use it.
What force am I allowed to use to protect myself?
The law says you may use any force that is reasonable under the
circumstances, but you have a duty to retreat before using deadly force
outside your home or occupied vehicle. If someone breaks into your
home at night, or tries to hijack your vehicle while you are in it, and you
are in reasonable fear for your life, deadly force may be appropriate.
>>> duty to retreat before using deadly force
outside your home or occupied vehicle<<< This is the key part
Can I carry a weapon with me for protection?
No, not if you intend to use the weapon. It is against Michigan
law to attack someone with a dangerous weapon, or to have the
dangerous weapon in your possession if you intend to use it.
What force am I allowed to use to protect myself?
The law says you may use any force that is reasonable under the
circumstances, but you have a duty to retreat before using deadly force
outside your home or occupied vehicle. If someone breaks into your
home at night, or tries to hijack your vehicle while you are in it, and you
are in reasonable fear for your life, deadly force may be appropriate.
>>> duty to retreat before using deadly force
outside your home or occupied vehicle<<< This is the key part
I am not a lawyer
I think carrying concealed inside the business (unless he is somehow part owner) would be against Michigan law (750.227)
I think carrying openly is the more interesting question. Michigan law doesn't allow anyone to sell to a minor but I couldn't find anything regarding possession. The GCA seems to have an exception that allows a firearm and ammunition to be "temporarily" transferred to a juvenile for employment purposes:
(2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a
juvenile to knowingly possess--
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in
a handgun.
(3) This subsection does not apply to--
(A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or
ammunition to a juvenile or to the possession or use
of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the
handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by
the juvenile-
(i) in the course of employment, in the
course of ranching or farming related to
activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on
property used for ranching or farming at which
the juvenile, with the permission of the property
owner or lessee, is performing activities related
to the operation of the farm or ranch), target
practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in
the safe and lawful use of a handgun;
So again, I am not a lawyer, nor do I ever intend to be one. Just throwing this out for discussion purposes.
Ryan
I think carrying concealed inside the business (unless he is somehow part owner) would be against Michigan law (750.227)
I think carrying openly is the more interesting question. Michigan law doesn't allow anyone to sell to a minor but I couldn't find anything regarding possession. The GCA seems to have an exception that allows a firearm and ammunition to be "temporarily" transferred to a juvenile for employment purposes:
(2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a
juvenile to knowingly possess--
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in
a handgun.
(3) This subsection does not apply to--
(A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or
ammunition to a juvenile or to the possession or use
of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the
handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by
the juvenile-
(i) in the course of employment, in the
course of ranching or farming related to
activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on
property used for ranching or farming at which
the juvenile, with the permission of the property
owner or lessee, is performing activities related
to the operation of the farm or ranch), target
practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in
the safe and lawful use of a handgun;
So again, I am not a lawyer, nor do I ever intend to be one. Just throwing this out for discussion purposes.
Ryan
AmericanMade's
Does the State Bar of Michigan have some sort of agenda or what?
A big "huh?" to question 1. It asks if a weapon can be carried for protection, then answers in the negative stating it's illegal to "attack someone".
As to question 2, current Michigan law is below, there doesn't appear to be a duty to retreat in what would be considered "life or death" situations. This was in fact updating with a 2006 law, the michbar.org document is dated 2008
780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.
Sec. 2.
(1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:
(a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.
(b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.
Ryan<----NOT a lawyer
Does the State Bar of Michigan have some sort of agenda or what?
A big "huh?" to question 1. It asks if a weapon can be carried for protection, then answers in the negative stating it's illegal to "attack someone".
As to question 2, current Michigan law is below, there doesn't appear to be a duty to retreat in what would be considered "life or death" situations. This was in fact updating with a 2006 law, the michbar.org document is dated 2008
780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.
Sec. 2.
(1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:
(a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.
(b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.
Ryan<----NOT a lawyer
As others have said, best not to believe or assume as being wrong could have dire consequences. BTW, where in MI are you? I grew up in SW MI, went to MSU and was in the area for about 10 years then worked near Detroit for a year and a half before finally moving to sunny Florida.
Ryan
Ryan
Aguila Blanca
Staff
The laws cited so far do not appear to care whether or not you are present. "Supervision" by an adult is not a prerequisite to carrying by a minor.Colvin said:
And do not confuse "handling" -- as in the context of plinking or target shooting -- with carrying for self defense, and possibly shooting someone in self defense. If you and he are in the store, you are in the rear stockroom, he is manning the cash register at the front counter, and he has to draw down on a robber -- you are not in a position to "supervise" him.
Check state law.
Massad Ayoob carried a 1911 at age 12, when working in his family's jewelry store in NH, with blessing of the local police chief.
Times are different now, but what you are suggesting isn't exactly unprecedented.
Consult a Michigan attorney, would be my advice.
Massad Ayoob carried a 1911 at age 12, when working in his family's jewelry store in NH, with blessing of the local police chief.
Times are different now, but what you are suggesting isn't exactly unprecedented.
Consult a Michigan attorney, would be my advice.
Man, I wish people would stop coming on here for legal advice. See, the problem is that the internet is not a good tool for this kind of research...particularly when it comes to current statutes. Also, don't forget that the statute is interpreted by the case law...if you don't know how to research and understand the case law, don't rely on the statute you found.
And for those that like to reply by stating they "are not a lawyer, but"...keep in mind that when you give legal advice, with or without a disclaimer, you are practicing law, and most states have a big problem with that.
If you are asking a serious legal question like the OP, please seek the professional advice of a competent attorney located in your state. It is safer for everyone that way.
And for those that like to reply by stating they "are not a lawyer, but"...keep in mind that when you give legal advice, with or without a disclaimer, you are practicing law, and most states have a big problem with that.
If you are asking a serious legal question like the OP, please seek the professional advice of a competent attorney located in your state. It is safer for everyone that way.
youngunz4life
New member
I do understand what you're saying + can appreciate it
but
though it is prudent to get legal advice instead of over the internet, over the phone w/granny(mom-in-law), from your buddy at the bar or watercooler @ work, and so-on, that doesn't mean someone like the OP can't ask questions for opinions on an issue. It is his responsibility to verify the facts before employing his plan.
but
though it is prudent to get legal advice instead of over the internet, over the phone w/granny(mom-in-law), from your buddy at the bar or watercooler @ work, and so-on, that doesn't mean someone like the OP can't ask questions for opinions on an issue. It is his responsibility to verify the facts before employing his plan.
This is interesting to me. I have never seen a post about minors actually carrying on here befor. Now as to the op's ? I would for sure be seeking an attorney to tell me for sure. I am sure that since it is a business there are a bunch of laws that could of importants to this case.
On the other hand though, I started carrying on the farm when I was about 9 I think. My son who is 10 carries on our farm now. Not so much for protection from a human but from those rapid coons, those bobcats and the mean a** copperheads and rattlesnakes. I will not let him carry anywhere else and not because of him but because of the rest of the world.
I would really like to hear what an attorney says about this. I am almost certain that concealed is going to be a no go since here in gun friendly KY you can not carry concealed even in your own home unless you have a ccdw, in open I would like to know. I know my son can do so for hunting as long as I am there to take control of the weapon if the need ariases.
As to asking legal advise on here I agree that you should also get it from a professional attorney but I dont see nothing wrong with asking here too just to see what other think and see there opions of the topic I mean that is the point to a forum. To get others opions on a given topic.
On the other hand though, I started carrying on the farm when I was about 9 I think. My son who is 10 carries on our farm now. Not so much for protection from a human but from those rapid coons, those bobcats and the mean a** copperheads and rattlesnakes. I will not let him carry anywhere else and not because of him but because of the rest of the world.
I would really like to hear what an attorney says about this. I am almost certain that concealed is going to be a no go since here in gun friendly KY you can not carry concealed even in your own home unless you have a ccdw, in open I would like to know. I know my son can do so for hunting as long as I am there to take control of the weapon if the need ariases.
As to asking legal advise on here I agree that you should also get it from a professional attorney but I dont see nothing wrong with asking here too just to see what other think and see there opions of the topic I mean that is the point to a forum. To get others opions on a given topic.
American Made
New member
The problem could be that nobody understands "the law"....
I've talked with several attorneys and everyone of them understands the law different. It called grey area ... it helps keep trial attorneys in business.
"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."
--Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1819.
You could call Larry Pratt of GOA and ask him. I know I've talked with him before
I've talked with several attorneys and everyone of them understands the law different. It called grey area ... it helps keep trial attorneys in business.
"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."
--Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1819.
You could call Larry Pratt of GOA and ask him. I know I've talked with him before
bitttorrrent
New member
I don't think kids should be allowed to drive until 18, so i would second that for carrying. No offense to your son who is probably capable, but at that age I do not think is a good idea. I know your circumstances are different in that there is risk with being in the store and selling firearms etc. Not an easy dicision.
On another note, where in MI are you near or name of store. If close to Sawyer,MI I would consider stopping in to see what you have some day.
On another note, where in MI are you near or name of store. If close to Sawyer,MI I would consider stopping in to see what you have some day.