MINN POLICE SHOOTING ANNUAL REPORT

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pluspinc qouted: "Time to start over and before we use a gun in self-defense KNOW we have MASTERED the basics. How much do you shoot in low light or darkness? Should be about 85% of the time. I prove one thing with each class. The dark is a good thing and we shoot better in the dark than daylight. You don't hear that from most training programs."
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So, I am very much interested of what are the basics Trainings, if all are being taught or written formally by police, military trainors are not that effective or applicable.

Can you just give for free pls if you don't mind. It would be agreat additional knowledge to me and others to know new methods of training in pistols.

Thanks,
Sonny Dalire Y Torres
ASAP Gun Club Inc.
Manila, Philippines
 
thanx, mooser, for reminding us of a fundamental law of nature; aside from death, taxes, and the return of disco, there are no absolutes. it makes sense that not only will different folks react differently, the same protagonist will reactly differently in various situations. I've been reading various memoirs of guys who served in Vietnam, and one thing mentioned more than once is that almost everybody comes unglued under stress at one point or another regardless of their experience level. the only guys who were impervious to fear were the guys who had a few screws loose, many of whom were injured or killed because of carelessness or over-aggressiveness.

what are the techniques for raising the stress level? aside from the standard competition games, the one thing I know of is force-on-force with paintballs or Simunitions. access to the latter is extremely rare for citizens, and its not like I can set up barricades etc at my club (due to the redneck factor, its becoming much more regimented). somehow I doubt you guys are doing the epinephrine injection bit. ;)
 
....No, ALL stances. They don't happen in real life at least they don't get caught on videos. This was said by pluspinc.

How about in places where there are incidents that the stances were used, where videous are not available to capture it. Could we say, oh! they are not documented.

So, it means all stances won't be that necessary to practice. What stances is then to be recommended, can you pls tell us.

If constant practice is not viable to future incidents where we might need it in future, what are you doing then in yourself, are you not constantly practicing in shooting target? Isn't it the old adage says, that "constant practice makes you perfect", it is like memorizing a poem that even we don't know how to read if we can hear and able to memorize it, then we can conditioned the mind, the tongue, etc. to recite that poem.

I myself being a martial arts player, if I don't practice in feet splitting, I can't execute my kick correctly. If I won't make push ups, I feel that my punches has no power. I think pluspinc (correct me if I am wrong) are you negating to the physical practice of the body for a certain purpose. Can just anybody if interested in guns for self defense can just procure and can use it effectively even without any training.

You might have other learning that belongs to the another plane of dimension, which we don't need a pistol anymore as a weapon and we don't need to practice our physical body. I am very much interested on what kind of learning are these.

Just inquiring.

Thank you,
 
Let's deal with a BASIC of science. Walking? It takes thought. Brain damaged/injured people often can't walk or do other simple things even with NO damage to the muscles or frame. EVERYTHING requires information to be processed by the brain etc. I don't want to get into anatomy etc. The information process is not only limited, but becomes more limited by induced FRIGHT (not stress) and I am amazed folks find it hard to understand a body and mind chemistry change when we are in a state of right. It isn't about training. It is about understanding how we function as a human.
We keep trying to dredge up any excuse to keep doing what we have been doing that doesn't work.
Year after year after year after year we get the same results with the same failures and the same excuses. Amazing it is so hard to admit it isn't working and more of what we do will help.
When we can look at a 85-90+% miss rate and claim everything is wonderful is highly suspect in any industry. I wonder what other industry has that failure rate and still has the product/service on the market.
And when we look at that failure rate and claim more of what we did to get it will solve it is even more interesting. Maybe denial is a river in Egypt.
Even when someone says they will look at solutions, they always support the old ways and set aside any outside effort or ideas to cling to the old failed ways.
As for the 91% hit rate by criminals it is well documented in the 1997 DOJ study. But what the heck. Let's ignore that one as well.
We don't want to change anything you know.
With over 1,000 videos now available of REAL shootings are we to cling to the logic that those videos have missed what we WANT to believe and use that as an excuse to stick to failed ways? Some will do that. They have their names on walls.
 
ivanhoe, i hate to see the return of disco.

i firmly believe that most people will do what they are trained to do when and if the time comes. some won't, but most will.
when looking at statistics such as these reports remember that this is a compilation, and not the complete facts of each incident.
if you are liking statistics of shooting versus hits, then compare the number of rounds fired at bunker hill with hit ratio, versus number of rounds fired in vietnam with hit ratio. and why is it that the marine corps has a long history of quality rifleman. if one looks at the marine corps training you will see that they spend lots of time on basic principles of marksmanship. i teach all my students in basic fundamentals and harp on these until they have a good foundation in such. then when i teach advanced levels, we still review basic fundamentals. when i have a class on the range, we do shoot distances out to 600yds with the rifle, and 100yds with a handgun. but we only go the longer distances to help magnify the mistakes to figure out where we can improve, then we go back up 25yds and closer and work on those areas that need work, which are are basic fundamentals.

for those wondering what fundamentals are, here are just a few: stances and shooting postitions, sling usage for longguns, grip, presentation and draw stroke, support hand, sight picture and alignment, trigger finger positioning, trigger press, breathing, follow through, reloading, malfunctions, reholstering, transitioning to a backup weapon, movement shooting, hammer fire, and multiple tapping, use of cover and concelament, barricades, support shooting,
the list goes on and on.

as far as what i use to stress students, there are many ways. my favorites are using real people in mock scenario's with simunitions or paintball guns. the computer and video systems such as fats and gamma are great tools. things i do on the range are set time limits to speed up the shooter, mix dummy rounds in their magazines, use multiple targets of different sizes, shapes, and colors, hostage targets, moving targets, etc, and put these targets at different distances. put shooters in awkward shooting positions, like having to go prone and shoot under a car, or while standing on stairs. whatever one can imagine to add a degree of difficulty and variety. what i have found that if i give a shooter a b27 silhouette target at 50yds with a handgun, most will focus on the whole silhouette, and shoot a large group.
if i give them a smaller target like a 9" steel plate or pepper popper, then they focus on that and get consistent hits and shoot a tighter group. when i trained with lapd metro division swat, they stressed to pick out something on the target and focus on that spot such a a button or insignia on the clothing, then you will shoot a tighter group. i find this true for myself as well as my students when i use photo targets and advise them to focus on one small object.
i believe and advise all my students that the more tools one can put into their tool box, that should the time come they might just have the right tool to get the job done.
just another $.02 to make $.04
 
Pluspinc--

Dang, man-- I'm really asking! I'm not trying to be cute, nor clever, nor sarcastic; I'm just trying to figure out what your alternative is to PRACTICE, and TECHNIQUE! You coordinate a school, right? Your contention is that technique doesn't work? What's do you teach, then? That's all I'm asking.

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When scared and in a fight, we can walk and even run, right? We can drive a car. We CAN think. We can call 911. We can get on the radio. We can give our location accurately, and call for help. All of this is thinking during duress.

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Is the contention that NO training is worth practicing? That cops get enough training?

If so... I personally disagree on those points. But that's okay.

Now, about your proposals for training with pistol...? (Don't want to get sidetracked.)


L.P.
 
as far as what i use to stress students, there are many ways. my favorites are using real people in mock scenario's with simunitions or paintball guns. the computer and video systems such as fats and gamma are great tools
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Stress is a flat tire. Thinking you will die is FRIGHT. You have fallen for a bag gag filled with snake oil.
Ask FATS or Gamma if they can show you one study that supports the fact they work. I'll save you the trouble. I got an email back that they can NOT show that and I was the first to ask. when you cough up tens of thousands of dollars for video games, you should at least have some proof they work. I don't think that is unreasonable to ask.

a. EVERYBODY that participates knows there are no consequences for failure.

b. They are almost always used INSIDE in perfect conditions. Take em outside at night
when it is below zero and blowing snow.

c. EVERY shooter KNOWS they will face a danger and are well prepared for it. It doesn't work like that in real life I'm afraid. Why not have them come in and give them an hour or two of NOTHING and tell them to leave. THAT is more realistic.

In the street you don't get the expectation of danger. When they walk in the door shoot them in the back and tell them class is over and to leave. That's a little more realistic.
Paint balls? I didn't know self-defense was that much fun.
We can still tap dance all over the miss rate. NYPD releases theirs around mid March. I think we KNOW what it will show. Any bets?
Thought so. Same old same old year after year after year and same excuses.
 
So we're supposed to look at NYPD as an organization of men and women who are well-trained and versed in pistol technique?

Technique only proves to be a failure when we see that its use was attempted by those properly trained in it, and it fails to work.
 
pluspinc,

i have one question:

1. if what law enforcement trainers isn't and hasn't been working, then what is your
specific solution???
 
pluspinc, to quote you:
"In the street you don't get an expectation of danger..."

I must passionately disagree on this point. Every working LEO comes to the job knowing that they will go in harm's way. Those who are on their 'J' and hope to survive a long and rewarding career so they can enjoy a long and rewarding retirement maintain situational awareness so that they can recognize and alert to threat cues.

The only situation I can see where situational awareness doesn't help is in flat out ambushes, which have been on the increase according to the UCR. The most recent incidents which come to my mind were in Orange county CA, where a sheriff's deputy was shot to death while in his patrol vehicle by an EDP with an AK47, and the shooting deaths of three Texas law officers lured to a trailer home and arriving individually on a call of a family disturbance. All three also died in their vehicles with hardly an opportunity to dismount or disengage and I think only one was able to return fire. I don't know of any firearms techniques effective against a bushwhacker with a mind to do killing.

It's a point you make repeatedly, that the profile of the typical LE fatality is of an officer with an average of 9 years on but I think that an analysis of these incidents show the cause to be not so much poor marksmanship as a combination of poor tactics, complacency, poor communications and inadequate physical conditioning among many other things.

Another point you have made in the past is that many officers are killed without clearing leather. This too I think is true and again it goes back to poor situational awareness, an expectation of "danger on the street" which the victim, for whatever reason failed to regard.

So, unless I'm quoting you out of context I believ you are waaaaay off the mark on that remark.

[This message has been edited by SKN (edited February 28, 2000).]
 
With regards to FATS, I've shot the programs as well as managed and administered its' use for 3 years at my former agency. I considered it a training tool whose primary focus was to teach decisionmaking (exercising options to attempt to control or deescalate a scenario, articulation of justification of the force option that was used) and secondarily to instruct situational awareness, tactics and marksmanship skill.

As to Simunitions/paint balls, there is a penalty which is part of the real world: pain - those suckers hurt! Especially if they're frozen solid.

[This message has been edited by SKN (edited February 28, 2000).]
 
I just watched a video taped shooting incident.
The officer approached the vehicle, was SHOT TWICE in the chest (vest) as he stood in the driver's side window. subject bailed out the passenger side, officer ran to the back of the vehicle, took a textbook weaver stance, and started shooting.
The subject was also wearing a vest, but after being hit multiple times, decided to run. All over in about 4 seconds. Tell him he was wasting his time on those silly shooting drills.
 
Shooters love to find a ONE TIME incident and say it represents normality. Hardly the case.
In most cases officers survive from LUCK and die from bad LUCK. Like a slug slipping over a vest and going intot he body. Like football it is a matter of inches at times.
The concept of the streets most of the time is indeed an ambush. Does someone think it is a sporting event with fair rules? Of course it is an ambush. What do you think the thugs are....morons? They don't shoot unless they think they will win. Remember, it is THEIR decision not ours if they will shoot. They make all the choices. We only respond to them and that puts us at a great disadvantage out of the gate with marginal survival.
We keep finding that officers are killed often because they fail to observe the most basic methods to protect against such attacks. Such things as poor searches, and poor handling of incidents such as "routine" traffic stops.
As for the video games they are just that. I note nobody has posted proof that they work. Decision making? IF they are realistic the officer would face one and NOTHING would happen after a few hours and the officer could go back home. That is realistic.
Also officers are convinced when done with these things that there is danger behind every tree and bush. Over paranoia can be as bad as none. Money is to hard to come by to play with video games that are only a theory with no support and other vital areas are wanting is pretty tragic. But they are FUN!
Do they work outside in the rain or snow?
 
Pluspinc: Requesting proof that the FATS training system works is fair enough, but do you have any proof that your own training system works? What would you consider proof?
 
pluspinc: I am also a professional, I I encounter with one military man holding his armalite, but was not able to consummate his intention to shoot me for I am fast to take cover on human shileds when I sense that I will be left alone on the crowd.

I encounter with two policeman, the first one is about to darw his .38 but cannot just drw because I am fast enought to get near to him with my bowie knife. Second police mam, he keeps attempting to draw his gun but I am always getting near to him and he cannot just draw his gun, for if he drew it, I could kill him instantly also, so there is a draw.

A man draw his knife and about to stab me, but I am on ready position to deflect nor lock his incoming knife. Then it so happen I saw an about 16 inc long steel tube inside a bus then I am about to strike him but he ran.

I was held up and 4 guys poked their knives on my waist and on my neck.

All of the above I escaped death, why, I conquered "FRIGHT" and I am ready of any eventualities. I got all my courage from my training of martial arts and body conditioning. Even now, non can just strike me if I can sense it. Not unless it is done by treachery that I cannot see. My training prepared me for all these.

I am showing only that hard training is good and I can conquer fright and I am always in good position to deal any danger.

I am from the north of the Phils. and encounter some communist and able to avert bloody encounter because of my training. I am absolutely agree that training counts a lot. this is just to explain that Fright can be conquered and controlled. Some one is frightened if he is defenseless and don't know any art to defend himself.

Thank you,
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Pluspinc said:"They don't shoot unless they think they will win. Remember, it
is THEIR decision not ours if they will shoot. They make all the choices. We only respond to them and that puts us at a great
disadvantage out of the gate with marginal survival."[/quote]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Stdalire said:"Some one is
frightened if he is defenseless and don't know any art to defend himself."[/quote]


It would seem, thus, that it would very much behoove the professional to train hard, to offset the advantage of those who would do him harm. To be even at an even footing with a BG, one must possess a higher level of skill. Fair enough. My training continues. See you at the range; I'll be the one drawing and double-tapping paper plates at 7 yds from a high-ride holster.


Folks, this one's getting long, and probably I'm the main cause of it, I'll cheerfully admit! :) We're only vaguely on Pluspinc's original topic, anyway, so, at 104+k, I'm closing this thread. Feel free to start a new one under a title relevant to your post ("MINN Police Stats" or "Is ANY Training of Use?", or whatever.)
 
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