MINN POLICE SHOOTING ANNUAL REPORT

Status
Not open for further replies.

pluspinc

Moderator
Just obtained latest police shooting report for Minnesota. We are going state to state to get this information. Minn is very NORMAL.

Only 45 shots fired in the entire state in 1998. No shootings used a shotgun.
One shooting was with a "carbine" and resulted in 18 shots fired and ONE wounding hit. With handguns they had one fatality and 5 wounded.
The horrific miss rate is alive and well and further supported.
 
on a related topic, there's an AP report concerning stats from NYCPD for 1999;
http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/02/21/shootings.by.police.ap/index.html

41,000 officers
155 incidents involving officer fire
42 "offenders" shot, 11 fatal
3 bystanders shot, none fatally

while the article is rather vague, it appears that only in about 1 in 3.7 "incidents" do the officers hit the suspect, and of those, only about 1 in 4 perish. also, it would appear that about 4 officers per 1000 get in a gunfight per year.
 
pluspinc, have you broken those stats down by urban/rural location? I wonder if the poor shooting has a correlation with some factor (aside from inadequate training, of course).
 
It didn`t say it but usually the NYPD has the lowest ratio of officer involved shootings of all the larger dep`ts. Stats can be skewed of course. The number of shots fired in the L.A. bank robbery could be used to say they`re trigger happy and can`t hit their target. Also after the Philadelphia PD went after MOVE, we used to joke when we were training the cycle (not recruits, they took what we said seriously) that the average police shooting involves 2.6 rounds except in Philly where the figure is 10,000 plus a bomb!
Hillary will use the Diallo case to show that Guliani isn`t in control of his "storm troopers".
 
In Minnesota, at least, I'm not sure I'd label the miss rate 'horrific'. Although I'm not a statistician, if 45 total rounds were fired and 18 of those were in a single engagement where 1 suspect was hit then that leaves 27 rounds fired resulting in 6 suspects down, an average expenditure of 4.5 rounds per suspect.

Is the 'horrific miss rate' criticism based on the supposition of the one shot stop theory, that each of the seven suspects engaged should have been rendered ineffective with one shot each? Is _that_ the point here?

I think a popularly quoted and relied upon stat, whose source and accuracy I can't account for, has been that LE shootings involve the firing of 3 rounds on average. 1.5 rounds over this average to achieve a hit doesn't seem completely out of line.

[This message has been edited by SKN (edited February 23, 2000)

[This message has been edited by SKN (edited February 23, 2000).]
 
SKN: The miss rate is running about 90+% for the big picture. The training thing is the lame excuse we come up with. When we ask two hard questions we get blank looks.
1. How much trainging?
2. What kind?

All we seem to get is excuses. The 18 shots fired by a 9mm carbine were IN a room. An MP-5 no less. You know the magic God given tool to end all such encounters. The one hit was minor wounding. The thug was dispatched by an officer with a .45.
Shooters keep ignoring this interesting fact in leiu of claiming training will cure it. So far nobody has shown a connection between survival and range scores. We keep worrying about shooting into wet phone books and Jello rather than how to hit the target in the first place. Cops are still a danger to low flying aircraft by any standard or measure.
 
Let me guess where that MP5 shooting was: Brooklyn Park, right? Where else in the metro are these carbines issued?
 
Pluspinc:

Please don't take this as an attack on you, sir, but I've read a LOT of your posts, and been to your very interesting website a couple of times, and am having a little trouble resolving your message. Is your point that training and technique is useless?

You say: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Shooters keep ignoring this interesting fact in leiu of claiming training will cure it. So far nobody has shown a connection between survival and range scores.[/quote]

You've disparaged the Weaver stance in the past. You've asserted that sights don't get used in confrontations. What is your main concern in preparing people to survive a gunfight? We obviously can't accurately depict them in training, so we generally work on muscle-memory and technique in good practice. I completely agree that LEO's are not held to a high enough standard for practice, but what is your main contention, beyond that?

Again, these are honest questions, and not meant with disrespect. I have a pretty good idea that I know pistol technique as well as the next guy, and understand the principles of surviving a gunfight about as well as the next... but I've an open mind, and am always willing to consider a new or different view on such things.

Regards,
L.P.
 
I too have read many of pluspinc's posts as well as looked through his web site and I think there is some good information to be had. But in the case of the documented engagement with the MP5 I believe that training, or lack thereof, may have had a lot to do with the results and I speak from personal experience as a trainer for that weapon and as a former operator.

As has been discussed before the question of 'how much training' is very dependent upon the time and money an agency's executive is willing or able to commit to it. So generally, the cheaper and less time consuming, the better. The question of 'what kind', I think, has to do with the the answer to the first query and what the agency's trainers believe will work best for their personnel whether or not they've conducted a realistic analysis of LE engagements.

I agree that range scores are not necessarily indicative of survivability in an actual engagement but at my former agency the personnel who consistently showed solid foundational techniques in firearms training faired well in their armed confrontations. Some of these were not shooters with the best scores either.

Lastly, in the examples cited, is the "interesting fact" that shooters ignore: 'x' number of rounds of .45 resulting in a fatality are better than 18 rounds of 9MM causing a minor wound? And, in these specific instances if in both the threat was brought to an end is there any real significance to the misses absent a friendly or bystander being hit?

[This message has been edited by SKN (edited February 23, 2000).]
 
I think that it's pretty well settled that it's X-ring hits, not peripheral hits with such-and-such caliber, that stops gunfights.
Who cares if it was a 9 or a .45? The samples are WAY too small to be instructive, and the main indication is that cops simply ARE NOT hitting what they're shooting at, enough of the time. NOT EVEN HITTING THEM! That's bad. Now, my question, so that it won't get lost, stands: what do we do about that, PPI? :confused:
 
You've disparaged the Weaver stance in the past.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No, ALL stances. They don't happen in real life at least they don't get caught on videos.

You've asserted that sights don't get
used in confrontations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Videos show that also. And you cant see them in the dark or low light and you WILL focus on the threat. Another study just came out showing that and is totally conclusive.

What is your main concern in preparing people to survive a gunfight?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Avoidance first. Second, avoid (if possible) a state of fright which removes all ability to manage or respond in a formal educated manner to the problem. The mind switches to a pre-programmed response you have no control over regardless of training.

We obviously can't accurately depict them in training, so we generally work on muscle-memory and technique in good practice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Old legends don't die. There is NO Muscle memory reflex and to date not one person has come up with proof it exists. It is not in medical literature nor a medical concept. Muscles have no memory. You MUST THINK to do anything. Nothing is automatic. Neuro responders can be short circuted by body chemistry including Cortisol, Endorphines, and Transient Global Amnesia among others.

I completely agree that LEO's are not
held to a high enough standard for practice, but what is your main contention, beyond
that?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You will find it funny I'm afraid. We have taken a SIMPLE subject and made it to complex. We need far less training, and reduce the amount of information needed to respond. We have to reduce it to the most basic levels you can imagine so that the mind can process that information. Funny thing cops tell us to dial 911 if we are in trouble. If we could think in an emergency we could have a toll free 800 number for emergencies.

Again, these are honest questions, and not meant with disrespect. I have a pretty good
idea that I know pistol technique as well as the next guy, and understand the principles
of surviving a gunfight about as well as the next... but I've an open mind, and am always willing to consider a new or different view on such things.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Police have a 92% miss rate. Crooks have a 91% hit rate. Who should we ask for advice?
Knowledge of pistols or shooting are not a serious concern. How much skill should it take to hit a human size target at arms length to 21 feet? You have to admit something is wrong when we can't do that and we sure can't.
So do we do more of what we have been doing and think more will work?
Time to start over and before we use a gun in self-defense KNOW we have MASTERED the basics. How much do you shoot in low light or darkness? Should be about 85% of the time. I prove one thing with each class. The dark is a good thing and we shoot better in the dark than daylight. You don't hear that from most training programs.
 
I don't think NYPD could hit anything with a stungun :p

------------------
"Guns don't kill people the government does", Rusty Shackleford.
 
one question which I think deserves some research is how much technique is performed by the subconscious mind when the conscious mind is occupied with running the "flight-or-flight" program. for example, if one is in full adrenaline dump and tunnel-visioned on the bad guy, is there any unconscious or automatic mental processing that can help achieve a rough gun alignment? (for lack of a less-controversial concept, I'll call it "point shooting" though I don't want to start splitting hairs).

and a side note on stances; from the few videos and whatnot I've seen, it looks to me like many shooters do tend to go into a crouch sort of thing. probably an automatic response to lower the body's center-of-gravity and thus increase mobility. there was an article a year or two ago which summarized the force-on-force event at NTI, and the author noted that folks who were performing textbook technique on the "gungame" events were doing some very nontextbook things when faced with Simunition hits. crouching, one-handed firing, etc.
 
Ivanhoe you have a strong clue as to what is going on. We have so filled the arena of self-defense with nonsense we ignore the truths we now catch on video tape. Keep looking in the direction you are going. You will find a ton fo scientific evidence to support the neanderthal response we use when in a mode of FRIGHT. Some amazing research out there that is going unreported because it doesn't support what we want to believe.
 
Pluspinc--

Funny thing about that "91 % hit rate for crooks" (you know, the one that's often quoted and seems to never be substantiated?)-- Crooks shoot first. Cops rarely shoot as an instigation, but rather as a hurried, unplanned-for response. Crooks don't have that rule of engagement. Also, it is ALWAYS documented when a cop shoots at a crook; it may not be the case conversely.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You've disparaged the Weaver stance in the past.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No, ALL stances. They don't happen in real life at least they don't get caught on videos.

You've asserted that sights don't get
used in confrontations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Videos show that also. And you cant see them in the dark or low light and you WILL focus on the
threat. Another study just came out showing that and is totally conclusive.
[/quote]

You know, I know just WAY too many cops who've had to point their pistols at armed felons who insist that the thing that saved everyone a LOT of trouble was that the felon in question observed that the cop in question held their pistol in a solid Weaver hold, had a good sight picture, and seemed to be in command of the entire situation. My own father asserts that this has saved more than one man's life in his experience, both in chance encounters and in raids (Dad's a 30+ year LEO.).

NON-shootings don't get the close scrutiny that the shootings do. When you're certain of your sight picture and hold and have 2lbs of pressure on a 4lb trigger, you have a lot more control of the situation than if you are totally focused on the target, and unsure of just where that first shot will actually go. [My Humble Opinion, yes, but a reasoned one, and corroberated by some pretty learned souls.]

Recall that I asked what kind of training you give your students to survive a gunfight: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What is your main concern in preparing people to survive a gunfight?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Avoidance first. Second, avoid (if possible) a state of fright which removes all ability to manage or
respond in a formal educated manner to the problem. The mind switches to a pre-programmed
response you have no control over regardless of training.
[/quote]Okay, okay; what I should have asked is: "What kind of PISTOL techniques do you train your students to use to survive a gunfight?" I'd really like to know.

Muscle memory is a buzz-word that I really should know better than to use. I merely mean that consistant use of small motor control on certain tasks makes them easier to do without conscious thought. Putting on a seatbelt; driving a manual transmission car under stress; writing your name without looking or thinking about it; drawing, safety, front sight, squeeze. Ganglia and neurons DO grow with repeated use. I can't write my own name with my left hand (I would basically have to draw my signature left-handed.) However, with repeated practice, over a couple of years, I could get my left hand to be almost as good as my right, through rigid, repetitive drilling.

This is why, after a lengthy session at the range, I've seen a full pistol qualification course shot blindfolded for what would have been a passing grade. (rural private closed range, with a man right behind at the ready to correct any safety missteps.) The man in question had full knowledge of where the pistol was pointing without even seeing the target nor the sights. Not "muscle memory"? Fine. Call it repetitive motion training.


Without such training, it's dadgummed hard to hit things in the dark. I've tried.

I've noticed that I will hit a man silouhuette in the dark better than I thought I could, but I was certainly trying harder, too. We noticed in academy that most of the guys' groups shrunk when they shot weak-handed, too. They were concentrating more on sight picture and trigger squeeze.

Sounds a LOT like your point is that training doesn't work. Is your contention that the old addage that a man will fight in the manner he's been trained is a lie, or just that most people aren't trained right? Given a choice, I'd rather be trained, and am glad I am. I welcome plenty of future training, because I know that I'm a long way from finished. (My graduation certificate will, of course, come in the way of a headstone.)

++++++++++++++++

You're away from cover, a man pulls out a gun and points it at you from 15 feet away, and imparts to you that he's going to kill you. You're wearing a pistol in a holster strong-side on your belt. You know that on your worst day, you have a 1-second draw-and-fire. What do you do? Avoidance is out of the question. Too late. Do you throw technique out the window? How do you put that first bullet center mass, right NOW? I don't mean to steal the thunder from your class, but we're talking goals of application, here, and not techniques of training.
 
Pluspinc: When you write that "You MUST THINK to do anything", do you really mean that no one can perform any action without conscious thought? Or are you using "think" to refer to any sort of brain activity?

Right now, as I type this message, my fingers are pressing keys on the computer keyboard almost as fast as I can choose which words I want to use. I'm NOT consciously thinking, "Now I'm going to press the 'shift' key, now I'm going to hold it while I press the 'n' key, now I'm going to release the 'shift' key, now I'm going to press the 'o' key..." and so on. I'm thinking about the message, but not about the individual actions required to type the message. How does that fit into your definition of "thinking"?

And are you denying that there is such a thing as a conditioned reflex? When Pavlov's dogs drooled at the sound of a bell, were they consciously thinking, "Oh boy, food's coming, I'd better activate my salivary glands!"?
 
Probably a better example of learned muscle activation is walking. Just watching my one-year-old baby girl is proof of that. She has to think every time she puts down her foot. Whatcha wanna bet that within 4 years she'll be playing soccer while humming Barney tunes to herself and wondering what Daddy's cooking for supper? (silly girl; venison, of course! :))
 
Long Path, I'll play Devil's Advocate and note that your example could be construed to support the contention that textbook methods (of whatever stripe, "Modern Technique" et al) would require not just *thousands* of repetitions, but *millions*. and it would have to be dozens of repetitions per day, every day. this would be a training level only a few percent of dedicated shooters would maintain, I think.

if you've sailed for a day or two on a small boat, you'll recall the wobbliness encountered upon return to terra firma. your mind runs the "walk program" but it has been modified by the "avoid getting pitched off the deck" program. a similar thing is to go from racquetball to tennis; it can take awhile for your subconscious mind to adjust the parameters of the "hit ball" program due to the change in the racquet length.

the deterrent effect of "proper" technique is a perfect example of the proactive versus reactive issue. if one has the "fire initiative," particularly when one has superiority of numbers, cover, element of surprise, prior experience with combat, body armor, et cetera, then I'd expect more adherence to training. if you're surprised, outnumbered, already facing a drawn weapon, etc, then I would expect that squaring up and performing a good stance, draw stroke, etc would be much less likely.

I'll throw a hypothesis on the troubled waters here; the required repetition count for a physical action is proportional to the complexity of the action (not necessarily linear proportionality). if this is the case, then there's a *strong* justification for the bulk of training to focus on very basic "see-draw-point-shoot" functions, rather than high-thumb versus low-thumb, thumb-the-release versus rack-the-slide reloads, and the rest of the higher-level activities.
 
these studies are interesting, and only tell part of the story. the part that can be documented into an overall report. i am a fulltime leo in minnesota. i'm also a weapons, use of force, and swat trainer.
i'm responsible for training over 400 officers on a regular basis. i am very closely aware of most of these incidents. the reports give data on type of weapon, number of shots, hits, misses, etc. there is always other pertinant information that isn't in these reports, but can be obtained by talking with those specifically involved. some officers will tell you they have no idea how many rounds they fired, or if they hit anything, etc. others will tell you specific details of how many rounds they fired, etc. i've had officers tell me that they never had a better sight picture in their life, and others tell me they never saw their sights. in my career i have been in too many bad situations, and sometimes i have had the perfect stance & sight picture, and other situations its has been pucker factor and you do whatever you can. keep in mind that officers are usually reacting to whatever the suspect is doing, and would make the officer have to resort to deadly force.

i'm a firm believer in training, and emphasis should be put on fundamentals and tactics.
do officers need more and better training?
i say yes. do fundamentals and tactics count? i say yes. i have seen this myself. i have seen officers react and do exactly as they were trained under stress, and i have seen officers who do everthing else but what they were trained to do under stress.
it is hard to predict the human factor, since everyone is different, and the old saying of you won't know what you will do until you are there. how do we deal with these issues as trainers? once a student has basic fundamentals, then i will stress them on the range, and get them reacting under stress. does this work? for some it will and for some it won't. but what i have seen is that if a student has a good foundation, and then trains under stress , then they start to use the stress to their advantage and are able to work through it and usually come out a survivor. sometime you are in the perfect weaver stance, and other times not. i have run tests with students, and under stress i have seen where that most will shove the handgun out in front of them in a point isosolesce style, and still a few use a weaver. i train all students in both, so they have an understanding of both. under stress you will do what you can, and may not be in a position to do a weaver, or you may do a perfect weaver. i have seen officers reload and never knew they reloaded, and this i believe comes from basic fundamentals practice. they never thought about it when it counted most, they reacted. somewhere in their sub concious they knew they had to reload and did it. reloading an mp5 in the middle of a shoot out doesn't come natural, and is a learned skill, so this is where i believe that fundamentals do count.

hit factor is more important that which gun or caliber you carry. we as trainers must ensure that our students are taught the fundamentals of clearing leather, presentation, grip, sight alignment, trigger squeeze, etc. then once they can do this stress them and get them to perform under stress. hopefully no student will ever be put into the situation to have to use their firearm, but if they do they will probably need those basic skills and tactics to survive. just my $.02 worth
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top