Minimum legal caliber changes

R

Roadkill2228

New member
Here in Saskatchewan the laws about minimum caliber for big game hunting underwent much change this last year, and I midst say I’m a bit concerned, and want to know what you think.

For decades, the law stated that no cartridge less than .23 caliber was legal for big game hunting. There are no .23 calibers of course, so the real world minimum has always been the .243 Winchester. Now there are no caliber restrictions but instead case length restrictions.

The case must be longer than 35 mm I think. I can understand that .223 and up is fine for whitetail, but there is nothing said about elk or moose or anything. You could legally use a .223 for everything now.

I personally think that’s stupid. The .243 made sense as a minimum. I know you can kill anything with a .223. Same can be said about .22lr or a big rock for that matter.

In this day and age I do not believe there is ever a situation in which a larger, more appropriate rifle could not be had or borrowed. Hunting isn’t a “desperate times desperate measures” endeavour like it was in the 30’s when everyone supposedly had an uncle who fed the family with a 22 because it was all there was.

I think this invites wounded animals and slower deaths, not to mention a greater likelihood of using innappopriate ammo. The law prohibits hunting with fmjs, but there’s no way to enforce against using varmint bullets.
 
I'm in the camp that believes the 223 is better than lots of folks believe, at least within range limits. It is probably just as effective as an arrow with good bullets, at archery ranges and with precise placement. But I'd personally not recommend it on game over 250-300 lbs. I'd use a 223 on deer, and have just to prove to myself it works. But I have better options and don't want to limit my ranges and shot choices.

It almost sounds like the approach they took here in Georgia on handgun hunting a few years ago. We used to have very complex laws that were really unenforceable. To prove that a gun or load was illegal would require the gun be confiscated and sent off for ballistic testing. They finally just said any centerfire handgun cartridge. Technically a 25 ACP is legal for deer or bear.

The thinking is that if someone wants to handgun hunt they will make wise choices. And it seems to be working. For most of the game actually hunted even in Saskatchewan a 223 is probably fine. Hopefully people will have the sense to realize it isn't the best choice for larger game.
 
This from the person that thinks the 6.5 Milenial is the be all end all cartridge. :D

For me the 257 Roberts would be close to my minimum cartridge for elk or moose.

I've already seen one person "sacrificed" for using a 223 on a black bear and be surprised he never found it.
 
"For me the 257 Roberts would be close to my minimum cartridge for elk or moose."
I'll second that on elk but have never shot a moose so withhold judgement on that. A lot would depend on the terrain.
My take on lowering the standards on cartridge size/energy is based on my own state. When the deer population out grew acceptable levels, the caliber/energy restrictions were lifted. I ASSume the bunny cops figured a few more deer hit and lost would help reduce the growing population w/o upsetting tender hearts by increasing permits again.
I've shot several deer with a .223 but it's just not a general use deer round.
 
Recent improvements in ammunition terminal performance and accuracy in entry level firearms has made some calibers once thought to be "marginal" just as effective as their bigger brethren. The quest to include more youth and female hunters into the stew, has also led to the inclusion of smaller platforms and calibers that recoil less.
 
Calibre requirements are usually created by unelected civil servants who have no idea what they're talking about.
"...think that’s stupid..." No set of laws are more daft the hunting regs from anywhere. Ontario says "any centre fire" is ok for deer. That includes stuff like the .22 Hornet et al. However, some counties require nothing greater than .275, by the cartridge name. So a .270 Win is ok, but a .276 Pedersen(that isn't a .276 at all. It's a .284.), for example, is not. Others say nothing greater than .270 Win specifically, despite the bullet diameter. The MNR also says a rifled 12 gauge barrel is still a shotgun.
35mm is ~ 1.38" for our Southern cousins.
 
Now I'm curious, would you guys consider using a .357 Mag lever action carbine with a 16 inch barrel to short range hunt for White Tail deer?
 
What do you consider short range ?
and what cartridge combo would you use ?

Notwithstanding answers above, a 158gr GoldDot
at a range/circumstance you can confidently
hit a 4" circle . . . fine (in fact, superb)
 
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I think it's much ado about nothing... or mostly nothing.

I've known a lot of hunters over the years. Some I hesitate to apply the word "hunter" to, for fear of soiling the concept.

I've known guys who hunt without licenses, hunt with all manner of illegal whatevers, shoot at any animal of the species under any circumstance, angle or distance and every opportunity, never tag a thing, shoot unlimited numbers, hunt out of season, road hunt, hunt at night, don't track wounded game ever, laugh at wounded animals struggling to escape, hang animals off their vehicles intentionally to mock anti-hunters, and a lot more I'd just as soon forget.

Worrying about the 1 in 100,000 who's going to hunt moose with a .223, or whatever, and thinking that final straw is going to break the camel's back? Nah.

If some dude is so dumb that he thinks {insert action here} is appropriate, there ain't nuthin' I'm going to say that's going to make him think otherwise... so I shrug and go on with life. It's just not worth it.
 
Most hunters are idiots, which does bring some concern about 'small caliber' allowances.
But, then again, most idiots hunt with cannons.

I think it will all work out in the end.

------

More than a decade ago, my (then) home state here in the U-S-of-A had a ".24 caliber or larger" restriction for big game. There were no length or capacity restrictions, or any of that nonsense. It was just ".24 caliber" or larger.
Well... The state, rather surprisingly to most hunters, changed the regulations and allowed "any centerfire cartridge" for rifles. So, even .25 ACP was legal, as long as it was a rifle.

The common idiots RIOTED. Yea, well... maybe not quite. But they protested as loudly as they could.
"HOW DARE THE STATE ALLOW SUCH CRAPPY CARTRIDGES AS .22 HORNET!!!!???"

Well, you see, it was a waste of breath (and time behind keyboards).

NOTHING happened. Nothing changed.

People didn't suddenly start wounding every animal on the mountain with their .22 Hornet or .10 Eichelberger Squirrel. They kept hunting with what they had.
Animals 'lost' to wounding has not changed, whatsoever, since the ".24 caliber" restriction was removed from hunting regulations. Poaching has not increased. Hunter "success" rates have not changed.

NOTHING happened.
Generally speaking, even the idiot hunters know what they need to make a good kill. And, in the case of idiot hunters, they usually go for more than enough gun - not 'maybe enough'.
 
And, in the case of idiot hunters, they usually go for more than enough gun...
Click to expand...
That's what I was thinking too.

Greg Rodriguez wrote an article some years ago and in it he made the observation that the vast majority of bad shots (animals that had to be tracked a significant distance after being shot) made by his clients were with "magnum" rifles.
 
mehavey said:
What do you consider short range ?
and what cartridge combo would you use ?
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To me, that would be 100 yards or less. Idaho has short range hunting listed.
As for cartridge, I'm still doing the research, but I'm thinking fairly hot 125 to 158 grn loads. In fact, I'm only looking at the possibility of this type of hunt.
 
Ballenxj said:
Now I'm curious, would you guys consider using a .357 Mag lever action carbine with a 16 inch barrel to short range hunt for White Tail deer?
Click to expand...

Yep....do it all the time. Also hunt with a .357 revolver. Use good bullets designed for deer and stay within the parameters of your accuracy and the lethality of the platform. No different than any other hunting weapon.
 
JohnKSa said:
Frankenmauser said:
And, in the case of idiot hunters, they usually go for more than enough gun...
Click to expand...
That's what I was thinking too.

Greg Rodriguez wrote an article some years ago and in it he made the observation that the vast majority of bad shots (animals that had to be tracked a significant distance after being shot) made by his clients were with "magnum" rifles.
Click to expand...

I tend to agree with that assessment. It seems to be related to machoism. Real men use big guns. Really real men use even bigger ones.

The most rednecky (in the negative sense), embarrassing, slob hunters I know hunt deer with .300 Win Mags and similar.

Not to say that hunting with such makes you a slob hunter, but the proportions seems distorted.

It's like the ratio of ME/animal weight is correlated to hunter ethics.:D
 
Aye.
One of the most wretched slob hunters I've known stopped by my grandpa's place, gleaming with pride, about 20 years ago. You see, he had dun shot hissself a cow elk!
There's much more to the story, but the short version is:

Seventeen.
That's the number of rounds that hit her. Seventeen hits, and not one of them was fatal. That stubborn, tortured cow only finally died (days later) from the cumulative effects of bleeding and stress because she had been hit so many times. Death by a thousand needles...

Cartridge of choice? .338 Win Mag. Because, as I believe he put it, .338 WM "hammers 'em the best." :rolleyes:
It sure did... :mad:


Now I'm curious, would you guys consider using a .357 Mag lever action carbine with a 16 inch barrel to short range hunt for White Tail deer?
Click to expand...
Proper load selection. Proper range. Hunter understanding his limitations.
Not a problem.

The above apply to any cartridge or weapon, for any animal, in my opinion.
I'm not opposed to a hunter going after Moose or Grizzly with a .25 Auto or a blowgun, as long as he knows what he's doing and will be fully responsible for the situation (including having a backup plan, to make sure the animal doesn't suffer if things go wrong).
 
You boys would be surprised that there are guys out there who are very good at killing stuff and can even figure out what cartridge and bullet will work to that end. They don't even need the government to tell them. Imagine that.
 
"YOU COULD LEGALLY USE A .223 FOR EVERYTHING NOW." (as per Roadkill2228)

In the big U.S. state just below you, you CAN use a .223 for everything, plus anything else you'd like to use to hunt anything (maybe short of an atlatl or spear).

From bunnies to bears, rifles or handguns, the .22 short or any of the .17 center or rimfires, to the 12 GA. RIFLE FROM HELL (as talked about in another thread), you're legally free to use for big game hunting (rabbits, too) in Montana. I talked to a nice young man (early 20's) who worked at a Montana LGS when I was looking for legal .223 bullets (60 grainers in Wyoming; deer or antelope) for some deer handloads I wanted to build. We had a good visit, and on par with each other on general reloading procedure. Then he got into the .223 bullet his hunter buddy was using in his AR for elk hunting. There was a brief pause in our conversation when I raised my eyebrows a bit, and talked to him more about 60 grain bullet use I was considering for deer in Wyoming.

I killed my first elk near 40 years ago with my 6mm using 100 grn. factory Rem Core lokts (wasn't reloading yet). My shot was around 60-70 yards with the elk facing me, a spike, and no obstructions whatsoever in my shooting lane. I was sitting when I shot, putting the hairs just below his jaw, centered in the neck. He dropped where he stood, and that was that. I think the right .243 bullet is ok for elk at a reasonable range, from a well-known, and "how it shoots," rifle. The .223, in my opinion, shouldn't even be considered as an elk round, nor anything else below a proper .243 bullet for those critters. And no caliber restrictions whatsoever on firearms for big game never made a whole lot of sense to me. All this, is just my opinion.

If I'm wrong about my info on Montana caliber regs., please jump in and correct me. I do think I'm pretty close, though.
 
I've finished deer with 9mm headshots, so with the right bullet and shot placement I'm sure a 223 could be sufficient on a deer. Even an elk, I guess.

I'm not personally recoil sensitive with rifles so I don't really see any advantage to skimping so much on my caliber choice. I don't seem to have any flinch or accuracy issues on anything up to and including my 300 Weatherby. I only use it when I expect a long shot, though - my 30-06 is a lot easier to lug around and the price per round is more palatable.

I do think there are a lot of mid-range calibers that make a lot of sense in between those extremes. I really like the 7mm-08 for deer and even elk with the right bullet, for example.
 
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State of PA, minimum caliber for elk is 270.
I know other states that have simular requirment for certain game.
 
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