Mini 14 accuracy

T

Tom C UK

Inactive
This is my first posting to this site and I should say that I am a Brit living, and still shooting in the UK (for as long as the Blair government will allow us). The shooting is VERY much under threat from our "ban everything" government. I guess we share the same problem in that.

Mini 14 (UK ref No KM14/5R-BAD), Ruger have just released to the UK / Europe a single shot Mini 14, in 223 cal, you have to pull the bolt back after each round is fired. We still can use 30 round mags, and this needed for PR competition shooting). It has a synthetic stock, is the matt stainless steel, in fact same as your standard except piston, connecting rod etc are missing. In UK we can only have bolt action / single shot rifles (unless they in 22 rimfire).

After taking the rifle to range I found it works well with the 62gn SS109 (M885?) rounds. The lighter 55gn shoot a wide group (6inch at 100yds). I can put 4 out of 5 shots into a 1 inch square at 100yds with the 62gn ammo.

Problem is when I go back to 200yds. Using same ammo the group goes up to 5 inch and no amount of effort gets it smaller. I also found that the centre of the group was 6 inch to the right of its 100yd very accurate aim/impact point. Weird!!

I am going to change the scope and try again this weekend in case that faulty.

Love the feel of the gun and I need it for Practical Rifle comps. Most these comps 100yds to 400yds, with some at 600yds, and our UK National comp up to 1,000yds. You can see why I need better groups !!

MY QUESTIONS,
1) can the rifle shoot, consistently tight groups? Say 1/2 to 3/4 minute angle?
2) the barrel is not free floating as held by metal fitting at end of cover. Is this a limiter to accuracy? Is there a way to make it free floating?
3) should I select another rifle for this sort of accuracy? Am I working with something that because of the linked cover/barrel will not give accuracy?

Up to now I have used a Styer SSG in 308 but with there being more emphasis on quick reaction shooting I find the recovery time for the 308 too long, hence my looking at 223

I am sorry for the length of this post and before we lost our semi autos and all our pistols in government ban, I had a mass of Rugers. I do love them, hence why I bought one of the very first approved rifles when released to the UK. I just need it to deliver for me!!

Appreciate, on, or off list, any help and suggestions

Thank You

Tom Charnock
Swindon UK
tom_charnock@msn.com
 
Welcome to the Firing Line.

I have a stainless Mini-14, the autoloading variety. I love the Mini-14, but I will readily admit that they are not Sniper rifles, not even close. Think of them as a Yank interpretation of an AK74. They are designed for close to moderate ranges with fast follow-up shots.
There isn't much you can do for accuracy asside from replacing the barrel.

Good Luck.

Hey. What method do you use to cycle the bolt? Do you keep your left hand on the forestock and work the handle with your right?

And what happened to your pre-ban guns. Were you instructed to turn them in to a police station?
 
accuracy rifle systems hot rods the Mini 14s to sub MOA
brochure & pricelist $2

ARS
po box 13772
odessa texas
79768-3772

915-362-6840

heres an interesting post:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Date: 25 May 94 09:31:35
From: Ed Harris
To: Chuck Weimer
Subj: Mini 14 Accuracy

My Observations on the Ruger Mini-14

By Ed Harris Rev. 5-25-94

When I was at Ruger I tested hundreds of Mini 14 rifles of all
configurations, conducting audit shoots of normal production, as
well as R&D testing of the full-auto AC556, AC556 and the experi-
mental XGI rifle in .308 Win, and assisting in the development of
the Mini Thirty in 7.62x39.

To be COMPLETELY honest I was disappointed with its accuracy when
compared to the M16A1 and A2 rifles, with which I am very familiar.
The Mini 14 gives reasonable performance for an American-made rifle
in its price range, and is safe, serviceable and realiable. It just
isn't all that accurate. You can find individual rifles which shoot
well, but these are statistical aberrations. We tried to test a large
enough sample of rifles to pick "good" ones, then painstakingly took
them apart and gaged every part to see if we could tweak tolerances or
make design changes which would significantly improve accuracy without
increasing production cost. It couldn't be done. We did learn a few
things, however.

The long run average group size for standard Mini-14 rifles fired
from a test stand is about 4-5" for ten-shot groups with M193 or M855
ammunition of "average" quality, producing an acceptance Mean Radius
of 1.6-1.6" at 200 yds from a test barrel. The M16A1 or A2 do this
at 200 yards from a machine rest. I believe the biggest factor in
Mini-14 accuracy is irregular contact between the gas block and the
face of the slideblock, welded to the slide handle (aka operating rod).

If you disassemble the rifle and inspect the face of the slide block
and the rear of ther gas block assembly, you may find that the face of
the slide block strikes one side or the other of the gas block, rather
than making a uniform and symmetrical imprint. This asymmetrical
contact causes fliers. The fit-up can sometimes be improved by
grinding 0.005-.010" off the face of the slide, so that with the slide
fully forward, a .001" shim can be inserted between the slide block
and gas block and be clear all the way around. This way the forward
motion of the slide is stopped by the right locking lug in the cam
pocket of the slide handle, rather than by the slide block slamming
against the gas block, as is the case with the M1 Garand rifle.

I caution against removing the gas block, because these are installed
in a fixture at the factory to insure proper alignment. There is a
small bushing in the gas block which locates it on the barrel. You
must be careful not to lose this. This is why the gas block screws
are staked in place on newer guns.

The condition of the muzzle crown is important as well as the
straightness of the barrel. Sometimes the barrels are bent when
pressing the front sight on. Usually they catch this at the factory
and they correct them if it causes fliers in the range, but since they
only shoot indoors at 50 yards, for a 2" group, the accuracy
standards are more in keeping for a plinking rifle than for the
serious accuracy enthusiast.

The Mini-14 chamber conforms to U.S. dwg. #8448649, which is used for
the M16A1 chamber. It has a .225" cylindrical ball seat with a slight
freebore. I do not believe the GI chamber causes any inaccuracy in
this type of rifle, because I have fired thousands of rounds in heavy
test barrels with this chamber which gave fine accuracy. For an
accuracy load I suggest 21-22 grs. of 4198 (either IMR or Hodgdon)
with the 52 or 53-gr. Sierra bullets loaded to 2.25" OAL, or 23-23.5
grs. of H322. The 52-gr. Nosler solid base also is quite accurate.

The Mini-14 Ranch Rifle was made in .222 Remington for the export
market to France, Belgium and Italy where civilians are not allowed to
own firearms of military caliber. Overruns were sold in the U.S.[/quote]

dZ
 
My thanks to Shin-Tao and to dZ for their help on my posting and for your frankness and precision in content. The Mini-14 really does give quick follow up shots and I will speak with ARS as if I can get the accuracy thing solved it will be a real comp winner.

Shin-Tao, I guess you must be into practical rifle from your question on working the bolt. Being right shoulder and master eye, my ideal solution would have been to get a "left sided" bolt which would have allowed my right hand to control the safety, trigger and generally hold the rifle, whilst my left could work the bolt and steady for the final squeeze/shot. Sadly no such "beast" available, only right sided bolt.

Our BANNED guns, the UK system was to media attack, then ban our semi-auto rifles first. We had to either, hand them into the police for a fixed payment, or export them to where they still legal, or have them deactivated (welded up) by police approved engineers. It was pretty much even on what the individuals did, but with the payment of US225 for a H&K G3 most went to Europe for sale at 3 times the price. I believe a lot went to the US as well. We still able to have semi-rifles in 22 only, so lots of Ruger 10/22s sold over here.

After the rifles the next attack was on pistols (revolvers and semis). Again a ban on all above 22 cal. Then just before the hand-in started, Tony Blair govt elected. They used the school killings in Dunblain (Scotland) to gain support about how they would ban EVERY handgun in the UK. After elected, they did ban ALL. We handed in to police and got compensation for our guns, equipment and ammo. This came to US250Million, though the Govmt has not confirmed the figure.

Interesting thing is we got no Olympic Team shooters as they not even allowed their special 22 pistols. Funny thing though, we hosting Commonwealth games this year and pistol shooting is part of the games. We will have lots of visitors and their pistols into the UK for the comps but no UK shooters as they illegal for us!! Strange world!!

You guessed it, street crime is up, more shooting and killings since the bans. They are even using AK47s now. It said that in some parts of UK underworld are selling at prices lower than the licenced dealers can buy in trade !!

That's what happened here, now only the criminals have full auto rifles, semi-autos and handguns (and the police, of course).

Thanks again
Tom C UK
 
At a local rifle range, one fellow had 1" groups at 100 yds and 5-6" groups at 200 yds.

The shooter's friend explained why but these two experts were over my head. As I remember it, the twist of the barrel and the weight of the bullet were not compatible with the amount of powder the shooter had (hand)loaded.

I'm over my head here. Perhaps one of the TFL experts could help?
 
Dennis, thanks for the pointer on powder, I have some friends here in UK who are big into reloading I will follow up your lead with them.

Shin-Tao, enforcement, wow !! A brief info on UK gun law. To get a rifle and shotgun you have to have either a FAC (Firearm) or SGC (shotgun) Licance. To get these you get forms from police, get 4 passport type photos of yourself. Get one countersigned by suitable person who can vouch it you (doctor). Fill in form with deatils home, any and ALL offences since you a child. Specify 2 referees who have known you personally for 3 years, the police send them a form asking questions about you, and may see them for more information. Sign the form to allow the police access to your medical records / doctor. State why you want the rifle and where you will use it. If not for target shooting only, you have to specify some land. Police check landowner given you permission and that it suitable for the cal of rifle you want. You need to be in a club, police check this also.

You specify how many rounds you want to buy at a time, and max you will hold. You have to get police approved steel cabinet for rifle and ammo. Depending where you live you may be asked to fit intruder alarm.

Police come out and check house, cabinet and interview you (you pay any outstanding parking tickets first). After all this you get licence for a specific cal of rifle. When you buy it, dealer writes details on your licence, he also posts same info to police. You also have to post same info to police within 7 days. (Same for shotguns)

If you want to change rifle, go to police ask / justify why, if they OK get a variation to your licence. Dealer buys old rifle, sells you new one, tells police details of both transactions. You send same info as well.

Each shooter has a large file in the police HQ. If you want multiple rifles, you must justify each one, and prove use of each one.

Any infringement of laws can lose your licence. Especially drink, intemprerate or aggressive actions even if no charges.

Its a wonder we still got any shooters!! and sure we the most law abiding part of the population !!

Tom C UK
 
Tom, you truely have my sincerest pity. I have heard reports of hyper-liberalism in western europe. I hear they need colonizers for Antarctica -- wanna go? We could surely bring our guns! :D


Hueco
 
Hueco,

Sounds a great idea but I read somewhere that all waste has to be collected and taken away from the Great White Expanse. May be tough to find those Speer bullets, bet they go deep in that snow!!

Anyhow, I don't think there is a free country left anywhere now, the UK certainly fails by any standard!!

Example, Farmer house broken into 6 times last 12 months. He so worried sleeps in clothes with boots on, shotgun under bed and his 3 dobermans roaming garden.

3am in morning he awoken by noises downstairs, loads shotgun goes onto stairs, no lights working, hears noise has torch shone into eyes, panicks, shoots off 5 rounds, is blinded deafened by noise (12 bore).

Retreats back upstairs, waits, all quiet, goes down finds no-one, deceides to leave and go to friends. One of burglars was bending down on floor putting goods in bag when he fired and was hit in back, other burglar hit in leg, both climbed out of window. One run off, other went to bushes and died. Injured one goes to other farm for help, police called. Visit shooting farm police find no-one there.

2nd burglar now dead in bushes and one in police custody never mentioned he had friend with him. Took 17 hours for police to find body. Burgulars had 116 court offences on their record, yes 116 between them.

Farmer taken to court and given LIFE sentence for killing burgular.

That liberalisim !! Keep letting the villains go free until a victim defends himself then put the victim in prison.

There is a appeal being lodged at the moment

Tom
 
Why, on Earth, would anyone want a Mini-14 that had to be manually cycled after each Shot? Does the Government you are SUBJECT TO allow you own a multi Shot bolt Action? If not, how about a good single Shot in .223?

Thus sayeth O'Conner: "Only accurate rifles are interesting."


Yr. Obt. Svnt.

------------------
Fred J. Drumheller
NRA Life
NRA Golden Eagle
 
Fred, thanks your email, and yes, in retrospect, and the postings to date, it seems the Mini14 is not going to deliver the accuracy I need.

The (flawed?) logic was,,, as every UK Practical Rifle shooter has a bolt action to work for each shot, Is there a accurate rifle with 20 & 30 round mags, 223cal, compact, lightish, and robust, that will minimise the time for each reload of a round.

I looked at "straight pull" bolt actions, as these must be quicker than conventional bolt "up and back - forward and down" actions. The hand action, to and from bolt in both types being the same times. This not so for a left sided bolt on a compact rifle. Regular full size rifle has too much weight forward to make right hand holding by trigger guard whilst say, standing, sensible for a long 30 round course of fire. This would have the left hand to work bolt, and steady for the final trigger squeeze, on each shot.

We have our own Brit SA80 and the single shot version (Cadet?), which fits some of the spec, though not left sided bolt. Isues on reliability and availability kept me away.

BUT, I did say that I am a fan of Ruger and I know they make fine, strong handguns and shotguns, and ever-lasting 10/22s, as I have in past owned many. With Ruger bringing out a "special" for the UK rifle market, was I going to renage on my support for them? No, I went out and bought one.

I don't give in too easy either, if it can be made to shoot well, I will get it there. If not, I will sadly have to sell it and get a more "conventional" bolt rifle.

Any suggestions in case it not work out for me? (Remingtons, Styer Scout, in 223)? Pointers would be appreciated.

Thanks
Tom C UK
 
Ooops, I forgot to mention that our UK laws do not allow the retro work on a semi auto rifle to make it single shot. You just can not take out the piston, our Govt think we will stick one back in and have a semi-auto rifle again. (Only our criminals have those)

Ruger had to make their UK version without all the piston, power bleed, return connecting rods etc. and make it so that buying the parts would not upgrade it either.

They really did make it "special" for our small P-Rifle market. OK it wasn't re-inventing the Pentium, but for a volume maker it must have been a pain to set up, make, control etc..

So please, any suggestions on existing semi-auto rifles, will have to consider the crazy UK law.

Thanks
Tom C UK
 
Tom,

Except for serious social intercourse, I still can't fathom the need for 30 rounds. If you like Ruger, how about a Model 77 in .223? For better accuracy, I'd go with a Remington. For fun, in a handy little single shot, how about a Browning repro low-wall in .223?


Yr. Obt. Svnt.

------------------
Fred J. Drumheller
NRA Life
NRA Golden Eagle
 
Fred, your right, if the designers of these P-Rifle comps (bit similar to IPSC stuff) didn't want to push us along, I could use my 1896 (yes 1896) Lee Speed 303 and live with the 5 shot capacity.

It shoots well, I won our County (Wiltshire) Service Rifle Competition 3 weeks ago with it. Shot from 500, 4,3,2 and 100yds.

But these P-R comps mean that you can use up to 50 rounds in a single course of fire, 250 in the days comp. Usual thing, multi targets, differing score zones, timed exposures etc. The cunning designers set it up with 24 target/shots so making the round counting important, or get a 30 round mag!!

I heard off-list that the Remington can be converted to take larger capacity mags, although no mention as to which actual mag.

Which Remington would you suggest?

Thanks
Tom C UK
 
heres the panther pump AR15: http://www.shooterstore.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&DID=90&Product_ID=5304&CATID=493

Features
Caliber: 223 Cal.
Barrel: 20" 4140 Steel Heavy Barrel.
Length: 39.5"
Weight: 8.5 lbs.
Stock: Black Zytel composition A2 Buttstock with Trap Door Assembly or Aluminum
Telescoping Carbine Stock Assembly.
Sights: Square Front Post, Adjustable A2 Rear Sights for Windage & Elevation to 800
Meters.
Capacity: 10 Rd Mags, 20 Rd Mags & 30 Rd Mags
Features: A2 Forged Upper Receiver, A2 Compensator, Push Pin, Pivot Pin, Sight Radius,
19.75"
Action: Pump
Method of Locking: Rotating Bolt
Rifling: 6 Grooves RH, 1-9 Twist
Handguard: Aluminum Free Float Tube

Upper & lower receivers are hard coat anodized
per Mil-A 8625A & Teflon Coated Black

it is a little dear...
ID #: RFA2-PU
Price: $1,695.00 Each
 
dZ,
thanks, but I forgot to mention that pump action rifles in cals over 22 rimfire are also banned. However, they didn't think of lever action rifles, they OK, As are pistols with barrels over 20 inch (whatever that is in metric).

Strange laws, they start in the late 1920's and have been added to /deleted from / modified, a couple of times each decade. Result, no-one really knows what the law is.

Becoming a bigger problem as more countries join the European Community thing. The anti-guns look at each new country firearm laws and then use that as the new target to get all the others to change to (but only if it tougher on guns). Condsider that many of these countries have a history of revolution, dictators etc so there are normally NO rights for gun ownership !!

Fred,
thanks for the links I will check them out

Tom C UK
tom_charnock@msn.com
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top