Mindset

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IIRC, even trained folks shoot low. The reasons being that:

1. They start to fire too early under stress.
2. They apply extreme pressure to the trigger under stress, yanking the gun down.

Because of this, some trainers say to take advantage of this in what's called the zipper technique.

In a training session, we had a drill where you stood in the center of 4 opponents (airsoft guns) and one would be the shooter at you. You had to respond. Many of the shots from trained folks where at the navel level or below. Ouch, they stung close up.
 
buckshot00- Untrained people are constantly shooting people in the legs and abdominal region they have no training only "I will shoot them"
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SgtLumpy- They are?
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More then half of the shootings I ear and read about the "victim" goes to the hospital and gets "treated for gunshot wounds". 2 in the chest is usually the "victim was pronounced dead".

I have heard reports of many gangbangers getting shot in the legs and abdominal region, this could be due to the sensitive nature of gangbangers not wanting rounds hitting bystanders but my guess is poor training.

You average gang related shooting has a very poor kill ratio.
 
buckshot00 said:
....Untrained people are constantly shooting people in the legs and abdominal region they have no training only "I will shoot them"...
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buckshot00 said:
...I have heard reports of many gangbangers getting shot in the legs and abdominal region,...
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How about some actual evidence.

"I think" or "I've heard" doesn't mean anything without known expertise, established credibility and actual evidence.
 
You average gang related shooting has a very poor kill ratio.
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Our gangs here in Phoenix have got it goin' on. They kill each other regularly.

Do you think, for some reason, that gang bangers don't train?


Sgt Lumpy
 
More then half of the shootings I ear and read about the "victim" goes to the hospital and gets "treated for gunshot wounds". 2 in the chest is usually the "victim was pronounced dead".
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The first sentence is undoubtedly true. In most cities, more than 80% of people shot with a handgun survive. In some cities that number is as high as 95% survival rate. Handguns are not that efficient at killing people.

Your second sentence is not necessarily true. Granted that two in the chest are more likely to kill someone than two in the big toe. However, people with multiple shots in the chest survive all the time. See above.

Good thing that the ultimate goal is to STOP the assailant, not necessarily to kill them. Handguns are very good at that.

pax
 
Posted by buckshot00: More then half of the shootings I ear and read about the "victim" goes to the hospital and gets "treated for gunshot wounds". 2 in the chest is usually the "victim was pronounced dead".
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Pax addressed that one.

I would not conclude that lung shots are any more likely to be fatal than shots to leg arteries.

I have heard reports of many gangbangers getting shot in the legs and abdominal region... my guess is poor training.
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Are you aware of this?

A relevant excerpt:

Nearly 40% of the offenders had some type of formal firearms training, primarily from the military. More than 80% "regularly practiced with handguns, averaging 23 practice sessions a year," the study reports, usually in informal settings like trash dumps, rural woods, back yards and "street corners in known drug-trafficking areas."

One spoke of being motivated to improve his gun skills by his belief that officers "go to the range two, three times a week [and] practice arms so they can hit anything."
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Oldmarksman, good link. Read the whole thing.

All it boils down to in that link is the fact that offenders have the drop on the victims most of the time. So the 70% hit rate they have over the victim's 40% hit rate, is in my opinion not a matter of skill. It's more a matter of them always having the upper hand in choosing their victim and drawing their weapon first.

It is sad how this new generation of criminals is noticeably more cold blooded in general.
 
All it boils down to in that link is the fact that offenders have the drop on the victims most of the time.
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In self defense, aggressors always have the luxury of the initiative. They know what they intend to do and to whom and when and where before they even draw a weapon. They may not always "have the drop", but the defender has no business pulling a gun unless he or she is clearly faced with imminent danger.

So the 70% hit rate they have over the victim's 40% hit rate, is in my opinion not a matter of skill. It's more a matter of them always having the upper hand in choosing their victim and drawing their weapon first.
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"More a matter" is a matter of degree, but if a 40% of violent criminal actors have had formal training and 80% do practice regularly, I would not completely discount the "matter of skill."

And the study does rather convincingly debunk the assumption of "poor training."

Not that much training is needed at bad breath distance....
 
I completely agree. The level of training required to be a sufficient defender is much more vigorous to be adequate than it is to be on the offense end.


What I disagree with is the notion that notice training is needed at bad breath distance.
It's actually quite the opposite. Farther is shooting and taking cover, with a retreat option.

Bad breath distance is actually more difficult training to prepare for. Too many different things are able to happen. It's more for a fight. It's the "fight" in the term "gun fight".
 
1. Situational Awareness (because we cannot allow a bad guy to get the drop on us)

2. Tactically Sound (because we need to deploy the life saving tactics as we prepare to fight off the threat)

3. Get R Done (much have the skills to put bullets on target as fast as possible and in a vast variety of positions)

4. Go Animal (Must be ready to become extremely violent without delay or hesitation)

5. Keep Your Head (must be able to return to normal once the threat is over)

My list based on the progression of a fight. I realize that 2 and 3 are not necessarily a mindset but more a skill set but they will give us the confidence to know we can get the job done which is mindset.
 
1. Situational Awareness (because we cannot allow a bad guy to get the drop on us)

2. Tactically Sound (because we need to deploy the life saving tactics as we prepare to fight off the threat)

3. Get R Done (much have the skills to put bullets on target as fast as possible and in a vast variety of positions)

4. Go Animal (Must be ready to become extremely violent without delay or hesitation)

5. Keep Your Head (must be able to return to normal once the threat is over)

My list based on the progression of a fight. I realize that 2 and 3 are not necessarily a mindset but more a skill set but they will give us the confidence to know we can get the job done which is mindset.
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A perfect world.
 
I'm deleting posts that just contain undocumented assumptions and snark. Let's keep this at a literate and factual level.

Second - I would disagree with some statements.

Posting that you would 'go animal' is not going to look good in court. Yes, we have evidence of similar statements being used against defendants.

Next, the statements about training at 'bad breath distance' make little sense. Training is useful for all levels and distance of the encounter.
 
Perfect practice makes perfect. Perfect mindset makes perfect.

Isn't the goal to strive for perfection?
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The lessons we learn are written on the tombstones of others.

How do you think they thought of their training? I doubt they called it "perfection" or searched to seek such a fairy tale claim.

The goal is to strive for survival.
 
There is no such thing as perfect practice, because humans are imperfect. There is no such thing as perfect mindset, because humans are imperfect.

Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent. Yes, we should be striving for perfection – but we should also recognize that perfection will always be beyond our reach. When we practice, we should first learn the best ways to do things. This means learning from others, not simply from our own ideas of how things "ought" to be.

There is nothing wrong with reinventing the wheel. However, when we do so, we should be sure that we are not trying to drive on trapezoidal wheels with offset axles.

Also, just in case my earlier post was unclear: of course you aim for the upper center chest when possible. That is where the good stuff is, such as the largest blood vessels in the human body, the heart, and other vital organs. The goal is to shut down the attacker as quickly as possible, and exsanguination is as good a way to do that as any other. However, it is incorrect to say that a shot or two to the chest "usually" ends in death. The facts are simply otherwise, as those who work the emergency room in any trauma center could tell you.

pax
 
There is no such thing as perfect practice, because humans are imperfect. There is no such thing as perfect mindset, because humans are imperfect.

Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent. Yes, we should be striving for perfection – but we should also recognize that perfection will always be beyond our reach. When we practice, we should first learn the best ways to do things. This means learning from others, not simply from our own ideas of how things "ought" to be.
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Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself.


I recommend that daddyo reads this book by Rory Miller.
 
OldMarksman,

Thank you for posting the link to the Force Science Institute study. The experienced law enforcement officers who create those studies and do that research provide an invaluable resource for the LEO community. I just wish they did more on the ordinary armed citizen side of the equation. Can't have everything, I guess!

pax
 
The lessons we learn are written on the tombstones of others.

How do you think they thought of their training? I doubt they called it "perfection" or searched to seek such a fairy tale claim.

The goal is to strive for survival.
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My guess is that you aren't a fan of the Glock slogan LOL.

I wonder if it really does any good to nitpick this much.

We strive for survival. The way I know how to survive is through the best training possible. So if I strive to be perfect in my response to the threat at hand, its saying I'm attempting to be perfect in my execution of that training. So my strive for perfection is one and the same with striving for survival. After all my training is done to give me a better chance at survival.
 
Posting that you would 'go animal' is not going to look good in court. Yes, we have evidence of similar statements being used against defendants.
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What would be the judicially acceptable adjective to describe the commonly taught mental conditioning to surviving a violent encounter?
 
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