MIM

Why would some posters on the subject pay any attention to an expert? They never do. They insist that MIM is cheap plastic, like a kid's toy, and nothing will change their minds.

Jim
 
Do GE, P&W and RR get their parts from indo-MIM as I have seen advertise in gunzines?

Where does S&W get their MIM?

GE, P&W, and RR are all global companies. They source parts and services (including MIM components) from all over the world. I cannot comment about India. But I'm sure it's there depending on certification and trade restrictions.

As far as I know, S&W does A LOT, if not most of their MIM in-house. Whatever they don't do, it is done very close by with a small group of long-time suppliers who are very vertically integrated with S&W's processes.

Most of the foreign-sourced MIM you come across in handguns is in 1911's or Sig Sauer handguns.
 
One of the reasons that S&W went to MIM parts -- and did so only after a long period of testing and evaluation -- was to make their parts with greater consistency/less variation..

If you read on the on some of the gunsmith/pistolsmith forums, you'll find that repairing old S&W guns, for example, can be a real problem... as the gunsmiths sometimes need a big box of old parts to find the one that can be fit to a gun brought in for repairs. There was relatively little consistency in the specifications of the parts used in the older guns. MIM, once they mastered quality control, made manufacturing and later repair much more easil accomplished.

The COST of developing and making MIM parts is much greater than making them using other production methods, but once volume is up, costs drop. The cost of USING them is much, much less -- and that is the cost savings tht most of us will benefit from the most...
 
What is MIM? Well, it's the equivalent of shooting a Bald Eagle and then using an American flag to clean the blood off the ground. At least that's what I read on the internet..

A lot of great folks on here explained it better than I can. Frankly it's not something I worry about. The hammers, extractors, and external controls of HK pistols are MIM. As stated, MIM can be done well.
 
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The main cost saving with MIM is in factory assembly, not just because hand fitting is not needed, but because with proper MIM design, many parts and assembly operations can be eliminated. The previous S&W trigger, for example, required 3 tiny holes into which were driven three tiny pins. The MIM trigger eliminates the holes, and the pins, and the time required for someone to go blind putting those triggers together. That is where the real cost savings comes in, not in the way the trigger is made.

Made the way those guns were made in 1920, say, they would cost half-again or maybe twice as much.

Jim
 
Why is it bad?

In its gun application infancy, MIM got a bad rap. Those bugs have been ironed out. Its quality depends on the vendor and how closely the process is monitored.

A few years back, a friend of mine wanted me to replace the MIM sear and disconnect in his 1991A1 "Billboard Rollmark" Colt despite my advice that he was wasting money. To no avail. He'd read it on the internet, you see...

When I got the swap finished, I arranged a scientific demonstration for him.

I laid the sear on an anvil...concave side down...and whacked it two or three times with a 4-ounce hammer. Not only did it not shatter into a thousand tiny pieces...when I installed it in a pistol, it functioned just fine, albeit with a rough trigger action because of the light damage done to the backside of the sear crown.

Then, I clamped the disconnect in a vise and whacked it. It bent about 15 degrees before it broke.

The biggest problem with MIM used in guns is that the manufacturers use it in applications that it's not well suited for. Assuming good MIM, it excells with frictional stresses, often...if not usually...outlasting machined steel counterparts. Under impact stresses, it doesn't tend to fare as well. Hammers offer an example. Nor does it tend to live long and prosper under shearing stresses unless the stresses are low and the part heavy in the cross section. Slidestop crosspins seem to do okay. Ejector pins, not so much.

As a rule, if an MIM part is going to fail, it usually does it early on. If the part survives for 500 cycles, it'll likely last for 50,000.

One thing I know for sure. Love it or hate it...it's here to stay. The good news is that, due to advancing technology, it will only get better and before much longer, nobody will want any of that old, obsolete machined barstock stuff that our grandfathers were stuck with.
 
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Yup.
I think most of the bad rep of MIM - other than being new in a very conservative market - came from the makers using the paying customers and warranty clerks to finish designing the parts. We might not need aerospace MIM but we need better than can opener MIM. Aerospace MIM with 100% inspection might be a good premium offer, though.
 
If your gun has a MIM sear and hammer and you wanted a trigger job done, it can be performed on the factory MIM components, but many of the MIM factory hammers and sears do not hold a trigger job as long as machined bar stock components would hold a trigger job . If you spend the money on a trigger job, you would probably be better off to upgrade the MIM hammer and sear to better preserve your investment to improve the trigger.
 
The only reason an MIM part wouldn't hold a trigger job would be if the steel were not properly hardened or were not of the right kind. That could well be true of some MIM parts, but if an MIM part won't hold a trigger job, it would not hold the factory fitting, either. In fact, MIM parts can be (and usually are) hard all the way through, and so will hold better than the old case hardened parts which would wear rapidly once the case hardening was cut (stoned) through.

Jim
 
I think the main "problem" with MIM is that it, like plastic gun frames, is a way to make guns cheaper, but with a perception that the savings are not being passed to the consumer.
I remember shopping for a new hammer and sear for a custom 1911 project, fifteen years ago. Chip McCormick had a line of "wire EDM", "shock proof" hammers that cost about $70 each.
A couple of years later, all the of those hammers were gone from the catalog, replaced by a MIM hammer that cost about $15.
That seemed to be realistic pricing.
Kimber puts the same $15 hammer in all of their pistols, from the base model to the "custom shop" guns that cost $2000.
People want a $70 hammer in their $2000 pistol, or it isn't worth more than double the price of the base model with the $15 hammer in it.
I feel the same way about a $600 service pistol with a plastic frame; people wonder why a 1911 costs $900 when a Glock costs only $600?
My question is, when a 1911 costs $900, why doesn't a Glock cost $300?
 
I have S&W, Ruger, Kimber, Citadel, several different models with MIM parts, no failure as of this date after many thousands of rounds. I did a trigger job on the Citadel, it's still holding up even after filing the hammer sear. Some shoot plastic pistols and then worry about MIM parts. I'll never understand.
 
RickB said:
...I feel the same way about a $600 service pistol with a plastic frame; people wonder why a 1911 costs $900 when a Glock costs only $600?
My question is, when a 1911 costs $900, why doesn't a Glock cost $300?

You might also ask why doesn't that $900 1911 cost $600 (or less): not a lot of research and development went into creating it. They don't have to do a lot of market research or product development. Then, too, some of the imported 1911s (like the RIAs) sell for less than a Glock, Nobody seems to question that 1911 vs. 1911 price disparity...

The price something sells for isn't necessarily a function of what it costs to make it or get it ready for sale. In fact, some products cost more because the buyers think that good things that cost more and are worth more.

I'm amazed that the newest, best performing Corvettes now nearly match the performance of the very best Porches, but do it for maybe 1/3 the $cost. But I don't hear anyone suggesting that the Corvettes are somehow wrong because they use a lot of composite materials in the body rather than steel or aluminum...
 
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I'm amazed that the newest, best performing Corvettes now match the performance of the very best Porches, but do it for maybe 1/3 the cost of the Porsche. Isn't that something like the Glock vs. 1911 comparison?

No. Glocks come in one configuration from the manufacturer.

1911's have endless options / features that can require additional materials and/or labor for each option / feature.

But, what does that have to do with the MIM process? That question was answered thoroughly yet the MIM wars continue to be fought on-line with a continuous stream of personal opinions which are worth about what you've paid for them...
 
buckhorn cortez said:
No. Glocks come in one configuration from the manufacturer.

1911's have endless options / features that can require additional materials and/or labor for each option / feature.

One configuration? Not really. There are a lot of different calibers, shapes and sizes (sub- compact, full-size), configurations (single-stack, double-stack, long slide) versions for competition (ala 34 or 35), with only SOME interchangeability of parts -- even when they're the same generation!

And you also CAN tart Glocks up if you want, with different slides, frames, and internals, just like 1911s... And at least one vendor made metal frames for Glocks.

buckhorn cortez said:
...what does that have to do with the MIM process?

Nothing, but neither did the Glock price vs. 1911 price rant... nor did your comments about all of the many 1911 variations that are possible -- some of which are off-the-shelf aftermarket pieces... :)

I'm not a GLOCK FANBOY, by the way. I've had some, still have one, but like other guns as well or better...
 
Originally Posted by buckhorn cortez
No. Glocks come in one configuration from the manufacturer.

1911's have endless options / features that can require additional materials and/or labor for each option / feature.

One configuration? Not really. There are a lot of different calibers, shapes and sizes (sub- compact, full-size), configurations (single-stack, double-stack, long slide) versions for competition (ala 34 or 35), with only SOME interchangeability of parts -- even when they're the same generation!

And you also CAN tart Glocks up if you want, with different slides, frames, and internals, just like 1911s... And at least one vendor made metal frames for Glocks.


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Originally Posted by buckhorn cortez
...what does that have to do with the MIM process?

Nothing, but neither did the Glock price vs. 1911 price rant... nor did your comments about all of the many 1911 variations that are possible -- some of which are off-the-shelf aftermarket pieces...

I'm not a GLOCK FANBOY, by the way. I've had some, still have one, but like other guns as well or better...


whatever...
 
I'm amazed that the newest, best performing Corvettes now nearly match the performance of the very best Porches, but do it for maybe 1/3 the $cost.
. Actually a loaded C7 Z51 is about $70k and that is close to the performance level of a entry level Porsche 911 costing $84k. The very best (highest performing) 911 Turbo or GTS is a whole other level of performance. As the C7 has made great strides in build quality, it still isnt in the Porsche league and probably never will be at that price point. Then there is the actual build materials used in the cars them self. The real world performance verses what the reported stats by the manufacture vary ALOT between Porsche and GM. One tends to be conservative and one likes to be very optimistic. This is a entirely other conversation.
 
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