MIM ?

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No 'Kool-Aid", just a very good explanation of the MIM process. As far as my view of Taurus it is based on my personal experience with them, that of my Son, and friends who also own Taurus guns.
But this isn't a Taurus thread, it's an explanation of the MIM process.
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Yes there was "Kool-Aid", a moderator of a Taurus forum invited to tour the Taurus plant and gushing about it? Surely you don't think that was an objective review, it was clearly a fan. I took exception with some of the authors superlatives, the guy was a Taurus junkie so he was going to be very favorable of MIM and MIM usage in guns, particularly in Taurus guns, but I also very clearly stated that I do not have a problem with MIM parts in guns, if applied properly and QC'ed properly.

I also do not have a problem with Taurus guns, I owned a PT92 that I loved and it was flawless, so I was not taking a shot at Taurus. I would still own it if my wife could have operated it, but it was too large for her petite hands. That being said I have also seen a Taurus PT145 literally explode in the hands of a guy standing next to me on the range. Taurus has had some QC/CS issues in the past and may still today, I don't know.

I have also seen a MIM part break on a S&W M&P 9mm, can't recall if it was the slide stop or the safety, but it snapped and fell off my buddies gun while he was firing it at the range. I didn't read it on the internet, or hear about it from my cousins uncles girlfriends baby daddys roommate. I saw it happen. MIM may not be the best choice for all applications in a firearm, though they certainly are cheaper and easier to make, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

But if MIM is inferior; if MIM parts are breaking all over the place, if police and armed citizens are dying in the streets by the thousands because their MIM guns break or fail; if companies are stopping its use amid tens of thousands of law suits, then MIM is bad.
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Seriously, you degrade your own argument with statements like this. Thousands? Really? If there was was ONE documented case of a MIM part failing a cop or armed citizen in the act of defending themselves, that would be enough for me.

If you want expensive guns, you can buy English shotguns that are hand filed out of steel blocks, take years to make, and cost fifty times the salary of the average American. If nothing less will satisfy you, fine. I envy you being able to afford such a work of art. But if you want a reasonably well made gun that you might be able to afford, why complain about cost saving?
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Oh Boy. Here we go again with the extreme examples. I am reasonably sure there is a happy medium somewhere between guns hand filed from a block of steel and lowest common denominator, mass produced, MIM and plastic, soulless guns. At least there is for me, but that might just be the "mall-ninja" in me talking.
 
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A great many people seem to believe that an MIM part is just as good as a forged/machined part. I am in the camp that believes it is simply a cost cutting measure for the manufacturer and that's all it is. I personally would never consider buying a ball peen hammer or a chisel or a wrench made from MIM steel. Would you?
 
MIM is just one way to form parts. Like every other method it can be done well, and it can be done poorly. And like every other method it has its benefits and its drawbacks.
Just because the occasional MIM part breaks doesn't mean MIM is any worse than any other method for making parts. The occasional forged part breaks too. There's no such thing as unbreakable.

Asking if MIM is any good is kind of like asking if pre-cast concrete is any good. In both cases the only right answer is.... it depends.
 
There is a lot of Taurus flavored "Kool-Aid" being drunk by the author of the post linked above,
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No 'Kool-Aid", just a very good explanation of the MIM process. As far as my view of Taurus it is based on my personal experience with them, that of my Son, and friends who also own Taurus guns.
But this isn't a Taurus thread, it's an explanation of the MIM process.
Click to expand...

Yes there was "Kool-Aid", a moderator of a Taurus forum invited to tour the Taurus plant and gushing about it?
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I misinterpreted your statement to mean me The link was to the entire post, but with a note to go to post 4 for a very good explaination of the MIM process.
 
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I wondered about mim parts for a while. But after several thousand rounds through my late model S&W with it's mim parts, I don't worry about it any more. It shoots just like my older one and is just as smooth. Were it not for the hammer that doesn't have a firing pin, I might not even notice.
 
Sorry Cheapshooter, I was probably not very clear in my original post, I did not mean you at all. I think we are probably fairly close on this topic, I am not opposed to MIM parts, they have their uses, I just think that they may not always be the best material for some parts. Besides, if I had my way, all my guns would be built from diamonds and adamantium.
 
Hi, Rob,

"I have also seen a MIM part break on a S&W M&P 9mm, can't recall if it was the slide stop or the safety..."

I wonder how you know the part was made by MIM and not made by investment casting, perhaps like those toy parts. It is not the same process.

As to my degrading my own argument, you are degrading yours by claiming that MIM parts break when you have no idea hoiw the part you claim to have seen break was actually made. I well recall when Glocks were denounced as cheap plastic junk made solely to evade airport security, and Walther P.38's were denounced as cheap stamped out pistols that couldn't even fire one shot without breaking.

Those kinds of stories were nonsense, but people believed them, and some still do.

If you consider than even one example of a gun part breaking is too many, then don't own a gun. I don't know of any maker who can claim that none of his parts has ever broken, no matter how they were made. I saw a hammer spur peel right off an S&W hammer and it was pre-MIM. (BTW, those hammers and triggers everyone says were better because they were forged were actually hot blanked out of 1/4" steel plate.)

Jim
 
I wonder if there is some ol cowboy that cusses those new fangled "double actions" why would it need a spured hammer?

such is progress.....enjoy the ride or get off the wagon.....
 
I worked for Burton Snowboards for a while in the 90's, and they used Sintered MIM inserts in the boards to hold the bindings...These needed three full threads of a screw to be accepted as 'sufficient for holding under the stresses of riding...

It was not the MIM inserts that were the weak link in a snow board...

If you ride, you are trusting your life to MIM parts...
 
MIM

MIM wears out way faster than Forged
Edges wear,sharpness falls off on MIM really fast
Its strong but way less wearproof
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That depends on what it's made of, and how hard it is. There's good MIM and there's bad MIM. When it's good, it can be quite good. When it's bad, it's junk.

I've seen it go both ways. Where many MIMers get into trouble is when they try to fabricate a part that doesn't fare well being made of MIM. Colt's experiment with MIM 1911 extractors is a good example.

The first MIM that I remember being aware of was in an old Kimber Custom Classic. In the beginning, Kimber's MIM parts seemed to be good. Colt has apparently stuck with a good MIM producer.

About 3 years or so ago, I had an opportunity to put a Colt sear and disconnect to the test after a friend of mine had me swap out the bad, old sear/disconnect set with machined steel parts despite my telling him that it was probably a waste of money.

I laid the sear on an anvil...curved side up...and whacked it pretty good with an 8-ounce hammer a couple times. Not only did it not shatter, when I installed it in a pistol, it worked fine. Impact damage to the crown made the trigger a little rough...but it worked.

When I clamped the disconnect in a vise and whacked it with the same hammer...it bent at about 15 degrees, but it didn't snap like a twig, as many will claim. I hit it again and again...and it finally broke at around 45 degrees.

I have a pair of Colt 1991A1s. "Billboard" guns that I've used as range beaters from day one. The two have seen nearly 400,000 rounds between'em, about evenly split. They've been tightened up once, and are both on their 3rd barrels. They both came with MIM sears and disconnects. One is still operating on the original set. The other one has the original sear. I replaced the disconnect at roughly the 100,000 round mark. It hadn't failed, but was starting to show some wear on the top, so I replaced it more as a "Nip it in the bud" approach than anything else.

By subjecting those hammered parts to far more stress than they'd ever see in a lifetime of normal use, I was able to draw a few conclusions concerning MIM.

If it's good, it's good enough for its purpose. Generally speaking, if an MIM part is going to break, it'll do it early on. If it lasts for 500 cycles, it'll probably last for 50,000.
 
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Where's a dead-horse-beating smilie when I need one?
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Ask and you shall receive.

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The reason they didn't use MIN "back in the day" is...they didn't have it. If they did have it, they'd have used it.
 
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Extreme

Seriously, you degrade your own argument with statements like this. Thousands? Really? If there was was ONE documented case of a MIM part failing a cop or armed citizen in the act of defending themselves, that would be enough for me.
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And if there's one documented case of a machined steel part breaking...and there are, by the way...would that be enough to convince you that machined barstock is no good?

Basing anything on one documented example is pretty extreme, no?
 
And if there's one documented case of a machined steel part breaking...and there are, by the way...would that be enough to convince you that machined barstock is no good?

One documented example is pretty extreme, no?
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All poodles are dogs not all dogs are poodles....:D
 
I wonder how you know the part was made by MIM and not made by investment casting, perhaps like those toy parts. It is not the same process.
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Good point, I don't know if the part was MIM or investment cast. I assumed it was MIM by the texture at the break, it was grainy, not solid, but maybe IC parts are like that too. Does S&W use one or the other process, or both, in their guns? Somebody who knows that feel free to chime in. If the external controls on a S&W M&P 9mm are not MIM, then I stand corrected.

you are degrading yours by claiming that MIM parts break when you have no idea hoiw the part you claim to have seen break was actually made
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Are you claiming MIM parts don't break? Because regardless of whether the part I saw break was MIM or not, google "MIM breakage" and you can see plenty of examples.

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This guy broke two MIM parts on his S&W revolver before they sent him a steel one. Why would they send him a steel one when MIM is "just as good"?

If you consider than even one example of a gun part breaking is too many, then don't own a gun.
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Again with the extremes. Now I shouldn't own a gun because I prefer good quality over "good enough"? Besides, once again, you are missing my point by a country mile. I have consistently said I have no problem with some MIM parts in guns, I just disagree with the claims that they are "just as good or better" than machined steel. They are used because they are they are easier and cheaper to produce. That is not necessarily a bad thing.
 
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