Rich Miranda
New member
I love tit-for-tats like these. It reminds me of the logic class I took in college.
I suspect MIM part failures get reported more frequently simply due to the "SEE?! I told you it was inferior!!" effect.
MIM vs. Machined
- Thread starter 2003flht
- Start date
I love tit-for-tats like these. It reminds me of the logic class I took in college.
I suspect MIM part failures get reported more frequently simply due to the "SEE?! I told you it was inferior!!" effect.
"Unless one pays thousands of dollars for a custom pistol, one can have no real confidence that American made firearms will perform as required, when required."
Nonsense. Sheesh.
Sure some new guns have to go back to be fixed, but that's nothing new. My father, uncle and grandfathers all had to send new guns back to the factory to be fixed back in the '40s, 50's, 60's and 1990. The 1990 gun was a new Python my father bought before he discovered that the front sight was just a hair off to one side.
John
Nonsense. Sheesh.
Sure some new guns have to go back to be fixed, but that's nothing new. My father, uncle and grandfathers all had to send new guns back to the factory to be fixed back in the '40s, 50's, 60's and 1990. The 1990 gun was a new Python my father bought before he discovered that the front sight was just a hair off to one side.
John
Saying a thing over and over doesn't make it true.
I don't deny that MIM probably cuts their costs (nobody does), but that doesn't mean there's no benefit at all to the user. The allegation that there is no other reason other than to reduce manufacturing costs needs something other than repetition to confirm it.
You're mixing levels. Yes, hand built, custom firearms are typically very high quality. However, a hand built, custom firearm is not the same thing as a mass-produced firearm with a few hand-fitted parts.
Hand fitting in mass-produced firearms can be a good thing, or it can be a crutch for poor manufacturing processes. If all the parts are made to the proper dimensions to begin with there is no need for hand fitting.
One would suppose that if hand work was the "be all and end all" that we would prefer "zip guns" to factory products.
It is an unfortunate though perhaps immutable fact of internet gun forum life that the MIM process is intellectually linked at the wrist and ankles with S&W.
This is unfortunate because it's apparently impossible to discuss S&W without emotion. The emotion naturally spills over onto the MIM process and has a predictably inhibiting effect on rational discussion of the MIM process itself.
If a post cannot be made about MIM without the concurrent mention of S&W, their policies or their pricing, I would submit that we're reading about one's heartburn with a specific manufacturer with MIM getting tossed under the bus due to "guilt by association" - or just plain missing the good old days back before there was a polio vaccine and computers weighed several tons.
The oft-overlooked (or simply denied) issue is that MIM is a relatively new technology and if everything one learned about it was from articles published in 1990, one's outlook is hopelessly outdated. Yesterday it was an ill-understood way of saving a buck on an ambi-safety. More recently, it's parts both larger and denser than could be achieved in the very recent past. From PTi's site:
...but of course, it's only there to save money over the handcrafted alternative and accountants don't really care about anything except the bottom line. Wait - that would include liability if a passenger jet were to fail wouldn't it? Maybe we'll get an aerospace equivalent to the infamous "Pinto memo" in the future?
It took roughly 30 years to go from the Wright Flyer to the Douglas DC-3. It seems unreasonable to me to assume that MIM is unchanged over a similar practical lifetime. It seems an article of faith among revolver folks that any change is bad change - there is nothing but entropy and doom.
I suppose they're right in one way - finding the hands to do the work is tough if those hands were bobbing for frys the week prior. Their grand dads are retiring and if one wishes to make more than 50 handguns per annum, they'll be replaced with machinery. The days of hiring apprentices that willingly work as an intern for a number of years is over. Much like the number one cause of death being unwholesome food and streets being covered with horse manure. Some things I cannot bring myself to wax nostalgic over. One of those things is a blanking operation that could result in tolerance stacking if not addressed by trial fitting. Such a process cannot respond well to a sudden increase in demand.
"It is a point of fact that the finest firearms ever produced on planet earth are/were hand-built. A $5000 Best Grade Bowen gun is built by hand, not stamped out on machinery. A $250,000 Purdey double is built by hand, not stamped on out machines."
Not completely true. Look at Fabbri shotguns for example.
"The original Fabbri design of all the parts, and the complete shotgun together, has been optimized several times over the years, using the most modern instruments available at the moment, including the most skilled workers, state of the art machines, CAD/CAM systems and simulation software.
The first computerized milling machine was bought in 1974, and since then a very innovative, specialized and specific Technology was developed to achieve the best results in building high precision shotgun parts."
""Hand made" or "Machine Made" is not necessarily something good or a quality assurance.
Men using his skill and fantasy to drive hands and machines together are the best and only instruments available to seek perfection.
The ancient artisan tradition and the most modern technology can be melted together in a beautiful shotgun.
Our dream is trying to make the best looking and reliable "shooting machine" possible today.
Every single part of the shotgun is designed and produced in house, from the smallest screw to the barrels, actions and everything else, using only the very best materials available today, optimized by specific vacuum heat-treatments."
www.fabbri.it/
Engraving is extra.
I wish I could find close-ups of Steven Spielberg's two Jurassic Park O/Us. Or the King of Spain's gun.
It definitely shows that all great guns, and Fabbri might be the best, are not necessarily all hand made. Like the man said, it's the last file stroke that counts.
"Ivo Fabbri, who at the time made shotguns in the basement of his house -- using state-of-the-art computer systems. Fabbri shotguns then started at $90,000. At the 2008 Safari Club Convention, they were selling for over $250,000. Making only 30 shotguns a year, Fabbri’s clientele include Steven Spielberg, Tom Selleck and King Juan Carlos of Spain." - from a review
Not completely true. Look at Fabbri shotguns for example.
"The original Fabbri design of all the parts, and the complete shotgun together, has been optimized several times over the years, using the most modern instruments available at the moment, including the most skilled workers, state of the art machines, CAD/CAM systems and simulation software.
The first computerized milling machine was bought in 1974, and since then a very innovative, specialized and specific Technology was developed to achieve the best results in building high precision shotgun parts."
""Hand made" or "Machine Made" is not necessarily something good or a quality assurance.
Men using his skill and fantasy to drive hands and machines together are the best and only instruments available to seek perfection.
The ancient artisan tradition and the most modern technology can be melted together in a beautiful shotgun.
Our dream is trying to make the best looking and reliable "shooting machine" possible today.
Every single part of the shotgun is designed and produced in house, from the smallest screw to the barrels, actions and everything else, using only the very best materials available today, optimized by specific vacuum heat-treatments."
www.fabbri.it/
Engraving is extra.
I wish I could find close-ups of Steven Spielberg's two Jurassic Park O/Us. Or the King of Spain's gun.
It definitely shows that all great guns, and Fabbri might be the best, are not necessarily all hand made. Like the man said, it's the last file stroke that counts.
"Ivo Fabbri, who at the time made shotguns in the basement of his house -- using state-of-the-art computer systems. Fabbri shotguns then started at $90,000. At the 2008 Safari Club Convention, they were selling for over $250,000. Making only 30 shotguns a year, Fabbri’s clientele include Steven Spielberg, Tom Selleck and King Juan Carlos of Spain." - from a review
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FrankenMauser
New member
"...continue to operate under 'XX' limitations, until 'YY' anomaly occurs, then remove from service within 30 flight hours; unless aircraft is already experiencing 'ZZ', then remove from service immediately..."
Been there. Done that.
Most people wouldn't fly, if they knew what happens behind the scenes.
Master Blaster
New member
Quote from Fabri's website:
Folks MIM is hardened by Vacuum Heat treatment.
Fabris small parts are MIM
Folks MIM is hardened by Vacuum Heat treatment.
Fabris small parts are MIM
Shane Tuttle
Staff
Not as long as people like you providing scare tactics to the generally uneducated. There's some awful practices going on in aviation. But that doesn't mean you can paint a broad brush so freely, especially when the U.S. has amongst the safest aviation records on earth.
hickstick_10
New member
Those 50000 dollar round action double rifles from holland and holland are built on CNC mills and lathes, this change on production (excluding the Royal series) this change in production was initiated by chanell (the guys who make the perfume and own holland and holland). Little hand fitting is done.
There not built by some little old man with tiny round glasses and a file anymore. Still shoot fine though.
What exactly are they producing with an EDM on the texican? If it were solely EDM your pistol would cost 7000 dollars, do you know what EDM is? Electro discharge machining is what it stands for, its used to sink cavities in very hard steels, sometimes for rifle chambers. You dont build an entire gun or a shape for that matter with EDM. You dont make gun parts with EDM. You sure as hell cant make a gun barrel with EDM. EDM operates through spark erosion eather with a copper wire or a graphite electrode thats submerged in a dielectric fluid, coper or graphite makes sparks when it contacts the metal and vapourizes a bit of it. not used for making gun parts (with rare exceptions of the initial cavity in some bolt actions and rifle chambers) hows he cuts the rifling in the barrel with an EDM? he doesnt. Before you start bemoaning a loss of machining steps, I recommend learning what machining is.
You must be thinking UHSM (ultra high speed machining) which they do do, and yes it results in a better product, but you cant use it for cutting rifling, and the chambers are still cut the old fashioned way so whats the point? Shave of an extra 0.001 here or there? Its very frustrating trying to explain manufacturing tolerances to people and how they affect things, guess what to little slop is a bad thing, a very bad thing.
As a journeyman machinist I can tell you I've heard every bogus mythical steel story there ever was and they usually center around weapons and cars. The manufactures come up with these gimics to make men well up tears in the corners of there eyes as they plunk down an extra grand or 2 on there new excalibur.
Take CPM 440V guns guys are often knife guys, and you think spyderco makes a good knife right? and that CPM 440 V is a good steel right? ITS SINTERED!!!!, that evil powder metal process is used to make CPM (which stands for crucible powder metal) 440 V and it IS A BETTER STEEL.
BUT BUT ITS NOT FORGED IN SOME SACRED CAVE??? no. Samurai swords? Made from the CRAPPIEST steel ever devised, but they made due by actually beating most of the slag and crap out of it, they are made with the equivalent of that black crap that spews out under a cutting torch, and oh ya, smack one sideways against a tree and see it snap.
Back to guns, take the old merwin and hubert revolvers, all hand fit, forged and machined parts. The damn thing is just as likely to blow up in your hand as look at you, a MIM gun would eat it for lunch.
Shiloh Sharps (same gun old quigley shot) Cast parts
Oh ya, unless its an old and wonderfully cheap revolver from spain (which gave cast parts a bad name) EVERY AMERICAN AND EUROPEAN manufacture reams out pin holes in hammers and frames, the technology just isnt there to have a hammer pin stay in place without it being reamed to size, since MIM hasnt reached that precision yet.
Yup the registered magnums were built nicer, to make up for the crappy forged frames and steels they had available at the times, again modern MIM steel frames are stronger then a registered magnums any day of the week.
MIM parts are heat treated, ALL steels used in gun frames must be heat treated or they cool to a normalized state (very soft metal) resulting in bad stuff. Same with hammers.
This is the crap that vendors have put in peoples minds, because emotions make sales.
Unless your willing to go back to the days of 1200 dollar microwaves, 500 dollar cordless phones and 300 dollar toaster ovens I recommend you embrace new manufacturing practices, because chances are your enjoying them everyday and dont even know about it. Also in the "good old days" man would gladly plunk down 2-3 months pay on a saddle, or a pistol and fine crafted weapons were strictly owned by the aristocracy. You wanna pay 6 grand for a good .22?
FWI: MIM parts are still machined, the just dont have to me machined ALL OVER like a big unwieldy forging does, since forgings cannot be made as precise as MIM, this is why you see machining all over on the old guns, it doesnt necesarily mean its any more precise than MIM, due to the fact no manufacture is going to hold 0.001 tolerances on a frame cavity were the springs sits, the hole placement is critical, but those tolerances are maintained in MIM because holes are drilled after the fact.
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hickstick_10
New member
Its steel, most likely with FAR less impurities and inclusions then some old forging.
They can be welded, its the smiths (or wanna be smith/metalurgist/machinist) who cant properly heat treat the old part after, because the heat treatment steps after you weld on a MIM part are different.
Your confusing steel handgun parts with pot metal, I recommend reading eather a machineries handbook or the metals handbook series it clears up alot of miscinceptions
Blondie.357
New member
Hickstick, I don't know if you are right but I have no reason to believe you aren't because you seem to know a great deal about this subject but all I can say is you make me like my MIM generation Smith&Wesson a lot more.
Thanks
Thanks
Yeah, but MIM still looks like crap, especially on a stainless gun
.I own both new and old S&Ws, and have had very few issues with either and zero parts breakages. My 642 has MIM lockwork; it was pretty gritty at first, but with lots of dry firing and a good cleaning of the internals, it is now one of the smoother J Frames I've handled, MIM or forged/case hardened.
I buy older S&Ws, simply because they can be had for less and I much prefer blued guns. Absence of the lock is nice plus as well.
Although lately, I've noticed that used S&Ws are approaching or in some cases, even matching NIB prices.