Military issue Colt 25 auto?

Jimbob,

Most of the folks who write so much about espionage have very little knowledge of the real thing, and that includes the sainted Ian Fleming, who had some kind of desk job in some British government agency but who now is described in at least one book as "head of British Intelligence." Nonsense.

Any agent as flamboyant as James Bond would not have lasted ten minutes in Nazi Germany, or in Soviet Russia for that matter. Believe me, getting caught carrying a pistol of any kind, make, caliber, or nationality in either country would definitely have been bad for the health.

Jim
 
That's why I get a tickle when ever I read about a 1911 with the serial number removed " it was made for the OSS agents in occupied countries ":). Plus ( and I've read all of the books ) Flemimg was not a gun person, he once had Mr. Bond carrying his PPK in a Berns Martin shoulder holster { for those who don't know the Berns Martin holster, it only works with revolvers }.
 
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James K said:
Most of the folks who write so much about espionage have very little knowledge of the real thing.
Click to expand...

Just like most of the newspaper folks today, who write so much about guns. :p

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Someone who was a spy, at least in a sense, U2 pilot Francis Gary Powers, was given a silenced High Standard .22, though I have no idea (and I suspect he didn't either) what he could have done with it. For his "covert" mission, he had a plane full of U.S. equipment and U.S. marked gear, plus the pistol. And he spoke only American English. Who was he going to claim to be, a Norwegian, maybe? A Nigerian?

Let me see how that scenario runs if he were shot down in the middle of the USSR. He has no idea where he is, he doesn't speak a word of the language, he has no food, no clothing except a flight suit, and no way to get help if any could be found. And a lousy .22 pistol is going to help?

In fact, he was shot down, captured and brought to trial. And no, he didn't use the H-S to shoot his way to freedom. We got him back after a lot of effort and only after the Soviets had exploited the incident for all it was worth. The pistol didn't help and at last report was still in a Moscow museum.

Jim
 
James K:

While I was not a spy, I was a USAF fighter pilot. When in compbat I carried an issued S&W Combat Masterpiece .38spcl.

On non combat missions I carred a .22lr revolver for survival purposes. I also carried it hiking and hunting. Got several grouse and rabbits with it. The advantage of the .22 is that you can carry a lot of ammunition for an accurate pistol to bag food in a survival situation. I seriously doubt that there was any intention for Gary Powers to fight with the .22.

Having said that, I agree with the thread that most writers are IGNORANT about guns. But then you just have to suspend reality a bit and live in the fiction you are enjoying.
 
Hi, JimPage,

I didn't say that a .22 could not be used as a survival gun, but I note you didn't have to use yours for that purpose. Could you have lived off the land in a foreign, hostile country, managed to escape the manhunt, and cover hundreds, perhaps thousands, of miles on foot to get to friendly territory?

If you could have done that, you are sure a better man than I am. I would probably have gone up to the first official-looking person I saw and put my hands up.

For that matter, handguns issued to pilots are more of a "peace of mind" thing than a real defensive gun. There probably have been a few cases where a downed airman did use his pistol or revolver to survive, but I suspect there were darned few.

Jim
 
In escape and evasion an offensive handgun makes a good hammer, you sure aren't going to shoot at any bad guys with it. A 22 automatic or a .22 revolver would be the best choice for a behind the lines ( or really anyplace ) survival gun. Not for offensive use, if they are coming at you with AK's, then it's Yes sir, No sir, 3 bags full. But if you manage to evade capture, they are still hunting you, the only game that you may see or have a chance at will be small, rabbits or other small mammals. a silenced .22 ( not really silenced but sound suppressed ) will give you a chance to harvest small game with out giving your location away. Way too many people , watching way too many movies think that in a escape and evasion mode, you want a large handgun ( if that's the only weapon you have ), on the contrary, a spear would be better than a .45., you want to survive and get home, not win the war for God and country all by your self. The only reason our Air Force pilots are issued a ..38 or 9MM. is to give them a warm fuzzy felling. They would be better off issuing suppressed Ruger MK 1's, JMHO and I have others.
 
Although I did have to eject once from a century series fighter, it was in the US and no, I didn't have to use the 22 to survive. On the other hand, I would still prefer the 22 to survive. Fighting an enemy force with your pistol is pretty useless. You'd likely be killed.

While in combat I carried the issue Combat Masterpiece in .38spcl. It's main reason was as a sigalling device to attract rescue. We carried tracer ammunition for that purpose.
 
:D Being a Air-crewman on helicopters I always liked to wait until they crashed, then just step out, did that threes times, worked like a charm.:D
 
Survival ? Ian Fleming ? If you relly want to read a very funny book see if you can find the one by Ian's brother Peter Fleming and his adventures in the wilds of the Amazon !! :D:D
 
Check out Charles W. Pate's book, U. S. Handguns of World War II, pages 175-185. Pate talks about the Colt Model N, 25 ACP being acquired by Army Ordnance Department's Springfield Ordnance District. Most of these small guns were obtained new or used from dealers.

The OSS was supplied by Army Ordnance and Ser #74631 and #186106 were requested from the Treasury Dept. (along with Ser #129044). The OSS had a hold-up shoulder holster that fired when the wearer's arms were raised (pics on p179).

Guns were marked "U.S.PROPERTY" and "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" on the right side of the frame above the trigger guard (p180). The author believes the markings were added post-war after the OSS returned them to the army. Pantographed markings are considered fake by the author who believes they were done not to defraud but to enhance them as gifts to friends (p181). Some have been seen with the ordnance escutcheon (Ser #402157, #407667, #407534) (p183).
 
I did check Pate's book. Also, I have seen a couple of those .25 autos with Parkerized finish and USP markings. Both the finish and the markings were fake, quite obvious to the experienced eyeball.

I don't think I said the military never bought .25 Colts; they certainly did. I said I was highly skeptical of USP markings on them. Pate shows 5 .25 pistols with USP marks. One picture (407667, p. 175) is too dark to analyze. The other four (p. 182-183) are all, IMHO, fakes.

I won't go into detail here, but I have looked at those pictures and, as I said, a couple of other .25 pistols purporting to be USP marked and do not consider any of them genuine. Nor do I believe that any agency/unit put those USP markings on. Guns might have been returned to the factory and marked there, but then the markings should correspond to equivalent factory markings.

Jim
 
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