Michael Bloomberg Is Twisting The Gun Control Debate In The Evergreen State W

[Frank Ettin]

44Amp, Frank, thanks.

here is a question, is there case law on allowing a spouse to dry fire or clean a firearm in the home?

For example in DC, a firearm, any firearm, can only be owned and registered by a single individual. Now there are no ranges in DC. And it is clear that a spouse driving to a range in Virginia would be committing a gun crime transporting, containerized, locked, and unloaded a legally owned firearm for the duration of the trip in Virginia....

And I'm sorry, but I'm just not going to offer an opinion. Trying to do so adequately, given the nature of the question, would take hours of research.

There probably is no case directly addressing the situations. So trying to opine as to what a court faced with the question would most likely do would require extensive research into cases involving similar or related principles. That's how lawyers do that sort of thing, and it's something I've done many times -- but it's a lot of work.

 

[Bart Noir]

So I have been reading the Initiative wording.

I'm doing it because I am a Washington ("The Real Washington") resident and am very worried this will pass. From the initiative wording:

"Transfer" means the intended delivery of a firearm to another person without consideration of payment or promise of payment including, but not limited to, gifts and loans.

And "delivery" is not defined. That leaves prosecution a very real possibility for the simple act of letting somebody I work with shoot my gun.

But it will not be criminal when Jimmy meets me down at the Seattle Police Range and lets me shoot his Pythons again. This is because of:

(4) This section does not apply to:

(f) The temporary transfer of a firearm​

(i) between spouses or domestic partners;
(ii) if the temporary transfer occurs, and the firearm is kept at all times, at an established shooting range authorized by the governing body of the jurisdiction in which such range is located;
(iii) if the temporary transfer occurs and the transferee's possession of the firearm is exclusively at a lawful organized competition involving the use of a firearm, or while participating in or practicing for a performance by an organized group that uses firearms as a part of the performance;
(iv) to a person who is under eighteen years of age for lawful hunting, sporting, or educational purposes while under the direct supervision and control of a responsible adult who is not prohibited from possessing firearms; or
(v) while hunting if the hunting is legal in all places where the person to whom the firearm is transferred possesses the firearm and the person to whom the firearm is transferred has completed all training and holds all licenses or permits required for such hunting, provided that any temporary transfer allowed by this subsection is permitted only if the person to whom the firearm is transferred is not prohibited from possessing firearms under state or federal law;​

It does look like it would be criminal (if no formal transfer) for my best friend to have my rifle as he drives out into the wild without me for hunting, and drives back later, but not criminal during the actual hunting.

Bart Noir

 

[Bart Noir]

how about when a police officer "secures" a weapon? Say, during a traffic stop. (ok, the police are probably exempted in the course of their duties, like they are from speed limits, etc.) some other law must cover that. Under the proposed law, without an exemption, wouldn't the cop who stops you need to have you both go to a dealer, and have the check run, so he can take possession?

The police will not be violating this proposed new law, since the initiative specifically exempts them from following it when

acting within the course and scope of his or her employment or official duties

Otherwise it would be a lot of work to issue new guns to an entire large police department All those NICS checks!

But there is a silver lining to this cloud. The initiative wording specifically prohibits the dealers doing the background checks, from charging any sales tax on the transfer fee or the value of the gun. I believe they still will charge sales tax on purchases coming in from other states since I saw no change to the law which requires that to happen.

Bart Noir

 

[Aguila Blanca]

And "delivery" is not defined. That leaves prosecution a very real possibility for the simple act of letting somebody I work with shoot my gun.

Would not allowing someone to shoot your firearm fall under the accepted definitions of "loan"? We typically think of a loan as being when the other person removes the widget from our presence, but it isn't really limited to that.

Suppose two gearheads meet up at a friend's garage, and want to tinker with their cars. One needs a 7/16" socket, the other has a socket set in his trunk.

"Hey, Joe, lemme use your 7/16 socket for a few minutes."

"Sure, no problem."

Both are standing there while the "transfer" of the socket takes place and at all times until the socket is transferred back to the owner. Isn't that in fact a "loan"?

 

[kilimanjaro]

According to the Initiative, you get to loan your friend your socket only during Flathead V-6 Season, and you and he must be together with the socket at all times. You must have your socket back by close of Season. The next day, too bad, you're in violation. You may loan your sockets at an approved flathead repair facility, permitted by the County. No private repair facilities may suffice, such as a shade tree, or a private garage, it must be fully permitted and licensed. You may loan a socket to a friend at an approved Flathead V-6 Car Show, but again, you must be present at all times. You must retrieve your socket before the end of the Car Show.

 

[Bart Noir]

....and now the State Gov. knows you have a 7/16" socket.

Somehow that may be the very worst result.

Bart Noir

 

[44 AMP]

and use of the socket with a ratchet requires a special license...and my be prohibited in your state...

 

[Cnon]

According to the Initiative, you get to loan your friend your socket only during Flathead V-6 Season, and you and he must be together with the socket at all times. You must have your socket back by close of Season. The next day, too bad, you're in violation. You may loan your sockets at an approved flathead repair facility, permitted by the County. No private repair facilities may suffice, such as a shade tree, or a private garage, it must be fully permitted and licensed. You may loan a socket to a friend at an approved Flathead V-6 Car Show, but again, you must be present at all times. You must retrieve your socket before the end of the Car Show.
Kilimanjaro is offline Report Post

I'm glad people are making fun of this; Bloomberg and his people are sure controlling; can we expect any less?


Cnon

 

[44 AMP]

The kind of hyper restrictive regulation we are used to as gun owners seems foolish when applied to anything else. Their excuse is always "but guns are not like anything else"...and they are not. But yet, they are, at the same time.

There is nothing in this world that cannot be (mis)used to harm others, if that is the intent of the person wielding it. Firearms are inanimate objects. They have no free will, and cannot act on their own. It ALWAYS takes a person.

Personally, I don't think we should have any laws focused on inanimate objects, rather we should focus on ACTs committed by people. Not what they used.

Unfortunately, that approach takes more work than simply banning possession of something.

 

[Cnon]

There is nothing in this world that cannot be (mis)used to harm others, if that is the intent of the person wielding it.

Couldn't agree more 44.


Cnon

 

[boltomatic]

Here's how I look at it. The "tougher" we get on guns, the more criminals will turn to the black market. Right now, its relatively easy to buy guns legally and divert them to criminals which is why we dont see a lot of large organized groups smuggling and selling guns like we see with drugs, but that will change if we make it harder for criminals to get guns.

Like drugs, once we banned them completely and started enforcing them strictly, the black market exploded due to more demand and now despite wasting billions of dollars on enforcing ddrug laws, things like heroin are widely available, cheap, and more dangerous than ever.

The same thing will happen with guns. The harder we make it to get them illegally, the more incentive crimanls have to sell them on the black market. Eventually, the incentive will be high enough for people to actually manufacture guns illegally, its not hard, all you need is about 10-$20,000 in startup money to buy the metal working equipment, chump change for large criminal organizations like the ones that smuggle drugs into the country.

WE don't see homemade guns now because its easy enough to get them from manufacturers, take that away and homemade guns will become commonplace in the criminal underworld.

We will never solve the gun violence problem by trying to keep guns away from criminals. We need to work on solving the problems that drive people to commit acts of violence. Poverty and racism are big ones, there's a reason there aren't many upper class white neighborhoods with gun violence problems. It has nothing to do with certain races being more violent or lazy or anything like that, it has to do with decades of racial disparities and economic problems that create an incentive for and a culture of violence where crimnal activity is tolerated and even romanticized.