Miami Shootout Analysis: What Went Wrong?

Kodiac has it about right.

The agent engaged to two suspects across the hood of two cars which were in contact with each other. The distance was diagonal across the hood of a mid size car and that plus one car width. Agent Dove did some good shooting. but his distance was greater.

This was a CNS situation if ever I saw one!

Also, you always shoot the guy with the most dangerous gun first. To ascertain that the fellow with the rifle is that one should be a decision concludable even while you are being engaged!

I would not be so hard on them as Kodiac is, but.... Kodiac you got it about right!





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Ni ellegimit carborundum esse!

Yours In Marksmanship
http://www.1bigred.com/distinguished

michael
 
8 feet... seems close huh?
But Agent Superhero didn't need a CNS shot. With his selected weapon I dont think the bullet would have gone through enough bone to do it.
But - He could have aimed for an eye - nose - or ear. ANY HEAD SHOT at that range would have done the trick better than just throwing lead out there.

FRONT SIGHTS, AGENTS... FRONT SIGHTS!

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Kodiac
Kenetic Defense Institute
"Sir Heckler"
 
This incident was a true tragedy for the FBI, and as with all cases involving several combatants, there was confusion and mistakes were made. I can offer a few observations, having read the autopsy report several times over the last six months or so.

First; some posters seen enamored of the idea of shooting for the head. Well, I suppose that this makes sense if that is all you can see of the target, but I think you are overrating the effects of a shot which impacts the head. Remember that Matix was struck with a bullet which bruised his brain, and lodged in his sinus, and rendered him unconscious. He regained consciousness, however, and was able to shoot afterward.
Further Platt was also struck in the head, but this had little, if any, effect on him.

The single most outstanding fact of this debacle which has impressed me time and time again is that Platt died of the first wound inflicted, a 9mm Win Silvertip, quote:
***************
As Platt crawled through the passenger side window, one of Dove’s 9mm bullets hit his right upper arm, just above the inside crook of the elbow. According to Dr. Anderson, the bullet passed under the bone, through the deltoid, triceps and teres major muscles, and severed the brachial arteries and veins. The bullet exited the inner side of his upper arm near the armpit, penetrated his chest between the fifth and sixth ribs, and passed almost completely through the right lung before stopping. The bullet came to a rest about an inch short of penetrating the wall of the heart.

At autopsy, Platt’s right lung was completely collapsed and his chest cavity contained 1300 ml of blood, suggesting damage to the main blood vessels of the right lung. Dr. Anderson believes that Platt’s first wound (right upper arm/chest wound B) was unsurvivable, and was the primary injury responsible for Platt’s death
**********************

Despite the many rounds fired at Platt, including Mireles' last shot fired at virtually point blank range, the perp. DIED OF THE FIRST WOUND HE RECEIVED.

This, to me, is not a problem of terminal ballistics. The man continued to shoot and kill for FOUR MINUTES after receiving this wound, yet was NOT hit lethally again.

My opinion as an Emergency Dept. physician with 20 year's experience, is that the 9mm. bullet performed admirably. What more do you want of a bullet? It severed his brachial artery at the elbow, which began spurting blood immediately and continued to do so; the lung was collapsed, pulmonary vessels severed, 1300cc of blood was in his chest (nearly 3 pints).

Bullet placement is essential. Even with a lethal first hit, subsequent lethal hits may well be required to stop the suspect. In fact, multiple lethal hits, until the suspect is immobilized is probably the best way to minimize danger to LEO's.

The search for the perfect bullet or perfect caliber is much like the persuit of the Holy Grail. You may think you have found it, but it is unlikely.

If there was a deficiency at the Miami Shoot out, it was one of tactics and execution, not one of terminal ballistics.

Of course, no bureaucracy is going to admit that their policies and procedures are faulty, unless forced to do so. In this case, the ammunition was a convenient scapegoat. The switch to 10mm. a plausible solution. Which didn't last, did it?

I can only hope that the FBI has quietly re-examined their felony stop procedures and implemented useful, effective changes.

Walter Welch MD, Diplomate, American Board of Emergency Medicine
 
Walt-
I've stayed away from this one for my own reasons. However, I must disagree with your conclusion that the 9mm Silvertip did it's job admirably.

Reaching and damaging a vital structure is not the ultimate aim of the defensive pistol round....incapacitating the perp as quickly as possible is a better goal.

By your own admission, the head shots failed to be lethal. Could we not assume that those hits *would* have immediately stopped the fight if they were of a more powerful caliber? Could we not assume that the bullet fired by Dove into Platts side would have done even more damage and therefore incapacitated him sooner if fired from a more powerful handgun? Think about it.

If a water buffalo were to charge, mangle and kill a fellow hunter after taking a "fatal" round from a 7mm Mag, would you be comfortable continuing the hunt with the same caliber or look around for "more gun"?
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 02-09-99).]
 
Dr. Welch,

It would depend on the criteria as to whether the 9mm projectile did its job. The autopsy report opines that the wound was not survivable. That indicates that it was lethal, but it did not "stop" the perpetrators.

Having taken this hit the individual did some serious damage.

I concur that a head shot is not a panacea, as I personally know two people, each shot twice in the face/head who not only survived, but who killed their assailant.


However, at the distance represented by the distance at which the Platt and Matix were initially engaged by the first agent, I would have gone for head shots.

As I indicated in my first post on this subject at 8 to 15 feet, shooting to the anatomically correct portion of the head may have averted the tragedy.

The fact that you, as a physician feel that the 9mm did its job well in this application supports my position. The target is certainly no more difficult to penetrate to from the front, side or rear than a penetration of the upper arm, entry into the chest cavity, etc.

It is my considered opinion that when one is that close, that depending on the "hydraulic failure method" of stopping the assailant is unacceptable in terms of risk.

Let's set aside the tactical failures preceeding the gunfight. I agree that they were the root cause of the dire results. In my opinion their training in the development of felony stops lacked.

Let's presume that CNS hits are not made, would having engaged that target have resulted in a worse result?

Perhaps both would have been rendered unconscious. They would therefore have been stopped.

Perhaps damage might have been inflicted blinding them, thus their lethality might have been considerably degraded.

Perhaps the damage to the head might have lead them to give up rather than to continue to fight.

Whatever the result, the effect of several shots to the cranium at 8 to 12 feet should not be underestimated.

Had the agent engaged them both in the lower half of the cranial vault from the angle he had they might have been killed instantly. This would have resulted in a "stop".

It is my contention that training to shoot to "center of mass" in all situations is inappropriate. This my opinion. I am not advocating that all shots be CNS attempts. I am advocating that in certain circumstances that should be the target of choice. For me, this would have been one.

You may disagree. I respect your assertions that many head wounds will not result in a "stop". It seems to me at the distances that we have here, that such a shot would have no worse than the result we had.

I am advocating that we actually train to use the CNS in these "near contact" distances.

There are sure to be many objections to this. It seems to me that several brave men died or suffered horrible wounds in proving that C of M is not the right answer all the time!

I submit that training to engage the CNS shot, placing the shot in the right place, is akin to shooting an elephant with a 7mm rifle. May not be the right way to plan to do things, but when you are there, with the rifle, then you MUST do so or die!

The objective of engaging the individual is to stop him or her immediately. When hunting I plan to shoot the animal in that manner. Why, in mortal combat with a human at deadly (close) range, would I want to engage him in any other manner?

I mean no disrespect to anyone who has posted here. The agents were brave and true.

Were I engaged in close quarters with a large carnivore,I would attempt to deliver what stopping power the weapon at hand had to that portion of the animal's anatomy which would stop him.

The primary problem with the C of M target all the time algorithm is that in some cases it will get you killed. In those cases I simply suggest that those who can, use a CNS target. Train to do so. Then plan to do so.
Given these circumstance have a predispositon to do so.

It might be better than the current conventional wisdom.


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Ni ellegimit carborundum esse! :)

Yours In Marksmanship
http://www.1bigred.com/distinguished

michael


[This message has been edited by Michael Carlin (edited 02-09-99).]
 
I have been watching this one with great interest and have seen, what I would call some pritty good 20 - 20 hindsight, and also some darn good input.

Some have mentioned tactics, no question the tactics of "felony stop" should require "Back Up" - they do as does the tactics of common sense. Bad field call? Perhaps but I wasn't sitting in the hot seat, I don't know what influenced the decision to engage.

Training ? Do they? If so, how do they? They do, infrequently, and train like most LE - mostly square range, some mount training but very little, and probably resist compulsory qualification as a quarterly or bi-annual pain in the posterior. They train front sight, center mass, they train failure drills - you know two center mass (thoracic cavity) and one to the head. By the way the head shot lethal target zone should be the triangular outline defined by the eyebrow line and nose because it is well known that the outer perimeter of the brain case housing ( sorry Doc ) has been penetrated without effect many times in combat. I have had a prisoner, VN type, walk up to me with the outline of a bullet lodged under his forehead. The round had penetrated and traveled around the scull - he had no idea of its presence. Yet not twenty minutes later one of my shipmates, Ted Rischer, took a round in the head standing next to me - he went down - dropped as if hit by a bat. The difference - a matter of fractions of an inch and luck of the draw.

In actuality guys, and some of you know this all too well, it is often very difficult to stop an individual in a gun fight.

With respect to equipment, I refer to my comments on the "What is the smallest Caliber, etc.?" posting. Bottom line - the hand gun is a woefully underpowered device, chambered in any caliber, for the stopping job (the barrel is too sort). The operative here folks is "Stopping Job". For this scenario, there is absolutely no weapon in the arsenal better than the SH.G.. It needs to be thought of, and trained on, as the primary weapon in high risk service - not an after thought if this type of catastrophe is to be avoided in the future. It needs to be fitted with rifle sights and properly equipped to carry stand-by slugs and appropriate shot rounds with the magazine loaded with shot designed for the environment it is normally deployed (i.e. Game shot for household use and large cal. buck, shooter's choice, for close quarter outdoor encounters).

But most of all guys, be certain - the combat experience does not remotely equate to the range experience. Why do you think the national statistic for officer involved shootings has remained around ten feet with a successful hit ratio of about 20% or in 80% of police shootings 1 round in 5 actually hits the target within ten feet. Heck you can stand on your head and close your eyes on the range and hit 90% of the time at that distance. Point shooting, Front sight shooting, does it make a difference within ten feet? Not really, however, the superior value of front sight shooting comes into play eventually.

The key here is the realization that combat stress or survival stress triggers physiological changes within all of us. In the face of perceived extreme danger, especially when surprised by it, hormonal secretions induce adrenal activities that activate the sympathetic nervous system which creates all sorts of damaging effects to our ability to think clearly and respond normally.
Fine motor skills disappear at 115 beats per minute (hormonal induced hart rate increase), loss of complex (multi function activity) motor skills occurs at 145 BPM, the eyes become binocular dominant and peripheral vision is lost to a cone of about 10 inches. Auditory exclusion occurs when the visual system becomes the dominant sensory source and reaction time increases up to 400% and finally irrational behavior occurs.

( I site Bruce Siddle of PPCT here)
It is only through a quality continuing training program that these effects are minimized. We are dealing with highly perishable skills here.

Any good combat program must address the value of gross motor skills as these are the dominant skills we are left with under extreme stress, that is simplicity must rule, KISS. The program must build technique confidence which will lower the hart rate and activates a positive mind set which, in turn, enhances all types of performance. It must include a Methodology for practicing survival motor skills:
• Static - slow motion repetitions designed to develop basic motor program.

• Fluid - slow motion repetitions designed to match threat stimulus to survival response.

• Dynamic - full speed roleplaying.

Train in a minimum of response options as reaction times will increase with available options (time out-which one do I use here). And finally visualize every conceivable combat scenario. Visualize your responses - this is almost as effective as experiencing the combat and will condition you accordingly. Reaction times will quicken as will response time and anxiety and hart rate comes down.

Breath control will reduce the hart rate by controlling respiration. In through the nose in two seconds, hold two seconds, out through the mouth for two seconds resisting and working the diaphragm. this signals the hart to slow down but this is a short fix and must be used just prior to engagement.
 
Michael : My view is just slightly different than yours on this matter. I do not think that the Miami shoot out shows that center of mass hits should be avoided in some circumstances, but rather that One Shot Stops really shouldnt be expected or counted on. I think that multiple lethal hits to platt, center of mass, would have put him down quicker. He was shot, what, 11 times? But basically bled out. Only the first shot was deemed unsurvivable. Only one lung was perforated, correct? Well we all know that a person can live with one lung. Some, obviously, can fight with just one, too. But if both were collapsed, and his heart was hit, along with various other essential organs, he might not have lasted as long. What do you think? Stay safe, - 01paw
 
Esteemed colleague Lucibella; I really don't think that we disagree, hard enough as that is to believe ;).

You said:

Rich Lucibella posted 02-09-99 03:50 PM ET (US)
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Walt-
I've stayed away from this one for my own reasons. However, I must disagree with your conclusion that the 9mm Silvertip did it's job admirably.
*********************
I said:
My opinion as an Emergency Dept. physician with 20 year's experience, is that the 9mm. bullet performed admirably. What more do you want of a bullet? It severed his brachial artery at the elbow, which began spurting blood immediately and continued to do so; the lung was collapsed, pulmonary vessels severed, 1300cc of blood was in his chest (nearly 3 pints).

Bullet placement is essential. Even with a lethal first hit, subsequent lethal hits may well be required to stop the suspect. In fact, multiple lethal hits, until the suspect is immobilized is probably the best way to minimize danger to LEO's
**************************

I don't see our viewpoints as being that different. I believe you see as beneficial shooting the largest, most powerful pistol cartridge you can shoot accurately. So do I.

The point I was trying to make is that ANY pistol cartridge is a mediocre tool for rapidly incapacitating a human being. Even though you are shooting a powerful, large caliber hand gun, be prepared to have to shoot and hit vital organs repeatedly to assure stopping a suspect.

Would Platt have died more quickly had he been shot with a 10mm or .45 ACP? Perhaps. Again, perhaps not, blaming a mediocre tool for a mediocre performance seems foolish to me.

I think you are saying, 'if only that bullet had gone a few more inches.' I agree that would have been beneficial, but I would add, AND SEVERAL MORE BULLETS PENETRATED VITAL ORGANS justto make sure that SOB went DOWN!

Walt

[This message has been edited by Walt Welch (edited 02-10-99).]
 
I am not expert in tactics,training or medicine but I do have some ideas.

Police departments are woefully undertrained usually because of budget limitations.

I think the Miami shootout and the L A Bank robbery illustrate the same point. The good guys were outgunned.

At the risk of being impeached let me state that the 9mm is not a good pistol round for anti-personnel use.Its place is in a full auto submachine gun where it can be dispensed by the pound.

The reason that most 9mm police shootings involve many many rounds is that it requires many many rounds.
A .45ACP JHP would be a much better choice but public opinion opposses its use because it might hurt somebody.
Marksmanship training would help in the use of any caliber but its not goung to solve the problem bt itself.

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
Harry Humphries wrote:
>>>
( I site Bruce Siddle of PPCT here)
It is only through a quality continuing training program that these effects are minimized. We are dealing with highly perishable skills here.
<<<

Harry, who is Bruce Siddle and what is PPCT? Thanks. BTW, to all who have contributed to this thread, this was one of the most informative and interesting thread on FBI Miami shootout I have ever read.

Thanks.

Shutoku Shia
shia@dataphysics.com

[This message has been edited by Shutoku Shia (edited February 18, 1999).]
 
Throwing my 2-cents in, I think there were fundamentally two factors that contributed to the disaster.

1st: as so clearly attested in earlier posts, there was every reason to believe these were really, REALLY bad guys. Bunching all the cars into a tight ball just seems like a bad plan. Dropping one car back with your average AR15 would have changed the dynamics considerably.

2nd: these bad guys were COMMITTED to the fight. I've studied the autopsy photos at length and see prime examples of "lethal" hits - one striking the cheek and driving into the skull, which failed to immediately incapacitate.

I think the big lesson here is one we can all reference when discussions come up re "excessive" force of heavy calibers, etc - if faced with a foe who is determined as these two scumbags were, there is no amount of pain or superficial injury in the world that will stop them in a timely manner. They were not jacked on PCP, just pumped on pure adrenaline and nastiness. That has carried soldiers through incomprehensible battles at war, and sadly will carry many a perp through a "textbook" defensive effort.

Shoot big, effective bullets, and shoot as fast and as accurately as you can until the bad guy goes down and stays down.
 
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