(MI) Detroit Police get deadly ammo - Critics plan to protest
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Danger Dave
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You have to look at warfare differently - the purpose of the Geneva convention was to insure some level of humanity remained in warfare. Things like poison gas and hollow point bullets were banned, but artillery and machine guns were not. Enemy soldiers aren't necessarily "bad guys" - they're mostly average Joes who'll only kill you because they have to, not because they want to. Banning HP bullets is simply shifting the emphasis from killing the enemy to incapacitating him. Comparing the situation of fighting an enemy soldier to combatting a nutcase who is shooting people at random is like comparing deer hunting to shooting a rabid dog. The deer, you want to take down quickly, cleanly, and as painless as is possible - the rabid dog you just have to put away as quickly as possible, mercy kills be damned.
Oh, and Striker3, I understand that heavy machine guns are only allowed for use against equipment, not personnel. The problem is, equipment can mean helmets, ammo belts, canteens, etc. as well as vehicles.
[This message has been edited by Danger Dave (edited August 03, 2000).]
Oh, and Striker3, I understand that heavy machine guns are only allowed for use against equipment, not personnel. The problem is, equipment can mean helmets, ammo belts, canteens, etc. as well as vehicles.
[This message has been edited by Danger Dave (edited August 03, 2000).]
From what I understand, FMJ bullets are more effective in wartime because they have a tendency to wound instead of kill. A man hit with a HP is more likely to die, and simply lay there on the battlefield. If he's shot with a FMJ and wounded, it would take two other soldiers to drag him back to safety. That takes three soldiers off the field instead of one, thereby decreasing the infantry more substantially.
That's my undersatnding of why they use FMJs in wartime.
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Glock 19
S&W 629 Classic
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That's my undersatnding of why they use FMJs in wartime.
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Glock 19
S&W 629 Classic
KelTec P32
"Oh yeah? Well I talk LOOOUDLY! And I carry a BIIIGGER stick! And I'll use it, too." -Yoesemite Sam
If the Hague accords outlaw HP bullets, and police are supposed to obey, then I guess the departments will start issuing machine guns, grenade launchers, and flamethrowers...items which have NOT been outlawed.
Anyway, I believe I remember seeing an analysis of the accords, and they only pertain to acts of WAR. The issue was whether or not 7.62 NATO "Mexican Match" ammo loaded with the Sierra 168 HPBT could be used in anti-terrorist and peacekeeping activity by US army snipers. The answer appeared to be "YES" since shooting a terrorist was not an act of WAR.
Anyway, I believe I remember seeing an analysis of the accords, and they only pertain to acts of WAR. The issue was whether or not 7.62 NATO "Mexican Match" ammo loaded with the Sierra 168 HPBT could be used in anti-terrorist and peacekeeping activity by US army snipers. The answer appeared to be "YES" since shooting a terrorist was not an act of WAR.
Did anybody catch the quote from the genius ballistician?
Police spokesman Octaveious Miles said he'll likely use a combination of hollow-point bullets and full-metal jacket ammunition.
"Hollow-point bullets are effective at close to moderate range," Miles said. "However, if a incident occurs where you are forced to use your weapon at a distance, hollow-points are not as effective as full metal jackets."
This guy is too dumb to pound sand.
Police spokesman Octaveious Miles said he'll likely use a combination of hollow-point bullets and full-metal jacket ammunition.
"Hollow-point bullets are effective at close to moderate range," Miles said. "However, if a incident occurs where you are forced to use your weapon at a distance, hollow-points are not as effective as full metal jackets."
This guy is too dumb to pound sand.
Cop Killer Bullets...that's a good one 
I was also amazed that the cops said that when they shoot people, they shoot to kill (no to stop?). I guess the Detroit police have not been keeping up on politically correct thought
Then there is this:
""Hollow-point bullets are effective at close to moderate range," Miles said. "However, if a incident occurs where you are forced to use your weapon at a distance, hollow-points are not as effective as full metal jackets." "
Huh?
The really funny part is that the more research we see, the more we see that hollowpoints do not make much more vicious of a wound, and do not "kill" any better. But they do transfer energy and "stop" better.
Surgeons and medical examiners say that they cannot tell the difference between the wound from a hollowpoint, expanded or not, and an FMJ.
So, this whole stink is just silly. Hollowpoints are not deadlier, they are less deadly because they stop (not kill, but stop) with less wounds (less rounds fired).
[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited August 03, 2000).]
I was also amazed that the cops said that when they shoot people, they shoot to kill (no to stop?). I guess the Detroit police have not been keeping up on politically correct thought
Then there is this:
""Hollow-point bullets are effective at close to moderate range," Miles said. "However, if a incident occurs where you are forced to use your weapon at a distance, hollow-points are not as effective as full metal jackets." "
Huh?
The really funny part is that the more research we see, the more we see that hollowpoints do not make much more vicious of a wound, and do not "kill" any better. But they do transfer energy and "stop" better.
Surgeons and medical examiners say that they cannot tell the difference between the wound from a hollowpoint, expanded or not, and an FMJ.
So, this whole stink is just silly. Hollowpoints are not deadlier, they are less deadly because they stop (not kill, but stop) with less wounds (less rounds fired).
[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited August 03, 2000).]
Knowing several DPD officers and having met a good number of others, having had conducted business at the City/County building and having been able to talk to several of the city council members at different times, I have concluded that if you added up the iq ratings of everybody involved with the city of Detroit in any public position you would not have a positive number.
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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
Apple a Day
New member
Maybe the new 'smart guns' will have settings for 'stun', ' chastise', and 'mildly irritate'. Then the only hollow points they need to worry about are those made in political debates.
Have we figured out the definition of "is" yet?
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Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules.Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Have we figured out the definition of "is" yet?
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Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules.Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
IIRC, some PD was sued because they used "ammunition specially designed to penetrate flesh" (FMJ). Now they can't use "ammunition specially designed not to penetrate flesh" (HP). It'll come round to using ammunition "specially designed to bounce off flesh" (rubber bullets).
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If the priority of the archive over witnes accounts is given up, history ceases to be a science and becomes an art.
http://www.ety.com/tell/why.html
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If the priority of the archive over witnes accounts is given up, history ceases to be a science and becomes an art.
http://www.ety.com/tell/why.html
The laws of war are the source of tons of urban legends.
DangerDave mentioned one of them: that "... heavy machine guns are only allowed for use against equipment, not personnel." This isn't true, as I told my machinegunners on a regular basis. Another common misconception is that shotguns are illegal under the laws of war. Also not true. Neither are flamethrowers illegal under the laws of war.
The rules apply to any armed conflict between nations, or to civil wars, so peacekeeping missions aren't exempt (otherwise our boys on the "meals on wheels" expeditions to Bosnia and so forth could massacre civilians willy-nilly, torture prisoners, etc.).
The laws of war DO ban the use of weapons intended to unduly increase suffering, like glass fragments from mortar rounds (which supposedly couldn't be seen by X-Ray, but I think that's a load of BS). This is where the "ban" on HP ammo comes from - the idea that expanding ammunition of any leads to unnecessary suffering. I'm not saying that any of this is based on rational thinking, but that's what it says.
DangerDave mentioned one of them: that "... heavy machine guns are only allowed for use against equipment, not personnel." This isn't true, as I told my machinegunners on a regular basis. Another common misconception is that shotguns are illegal under the laws of war. Also not true. Neither are flamethrowers illegal under the laws of war.
The rules apply to any armed conflict between nations, or to civil wars, so peacekeeping missions aren't exempt (otherwise our boys on the "meals on wheels" expeditions to Bosnia and so forth could massacre civilians willy-nilly, torture prisoners, etc.).
The laws of war DO ban the use of weapons intended to unduly increase suffering, like glass fragments from mortar rounds (which supposedly couldn't be seen by X-Ray, but I think that's a load of BS). This is where the "ban" on HP ammo comes from - the idea that expanding ammunition of any leads to unnecessary suffering. I'm not saying that any of this is based on rational thinking, but that's what it says.
straightShot
New member
Thank goodness I moved out of Detroit...
Besides having an inept City Council, lighting department, building permits dept, small business...I could go on and on.
Lately, the Detroit Free Press has been writing a series of articles about a select few police officers and their tendency to be involved in multiple shootings and not be disciplined for their actions. The city has had to settle lawsuits in the millions of dollars for cops involved in these questionable or 'bad' shootings. The big story was about a cop who had 9 shootings in 6 years. They did a whole series of articles about him.
http://www.freep.com/news/locway/shoot17_20000517.htm
Here's another story about fatal shooting rates(shootings resulting in death). http://www.freep.com/news/locway/shoot15_20000515.htm
I do have some very good friends who are still Detroit cops. Unfortunately, a select few shed a bad light on the whole department.
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NRA Life Member
Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners(MCRGO)
Besides having an inept City Council, lighting department, building permits dept, small business...I could go on and on.
Lately, the Detroit Free Press has been writing a series of articles about a select few police officers and their tendency to be involved in multiple shootings and not be disciplined for their actions. The city has had to settle lawsuits in the millions of dollars for cops involved in these questionable or 'bad' shootings. The big story was about a cop who had 9 shootings in 6 years. They did a whole series of articles about him.
http://www.freep.com/news/locway/shoot17_20000517.htm
Here's another story about fatal shooting rates(shootings resulting in death). http://www.freep.com/news/locway/shoot15_20000515.htm
I do have some very good friends who are still Detroit cops. Unfortunately, a select few shed a bad light on the whole department.
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NRA Life Member
Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners(MCRGO)
RikWriter - we could go back and forth forever on this issue, because I don't have my pubs handy on this issue...
But believe me I'm not speaking out of my tuchas on this one. I've had extensive formal training on this. While you are technically correct in that the rule doesn't specifically say "HP ammo," the US has interpreted the "can't use weapons designed to cause undue suffering" requirement to bar HP as well as other expanding ammunition. Using FMJ ammo is universal practice by the world's armies.
The US is a signatory to the Geneva Accords, as is virtually every country in the world. I think Eritrea isn't, but that's the only one I can think of.
If there is even SP ammo in the inventory, I've never heard of it. Everything is jacketed, except for the .45 wadcutters we use on the pistol team for practice. If there was SP or HP ammo in the inventory or if it was allowable, you'd think snipers would have access to it. At least in the USMC they don't. To my knowledge, even SF guys draw weapons and ammo from the same stocks as every other unit. If you mean Delta, then maybe there's some unconventional weapons and ammo, but even there I doubt it.
But believe me I'm not speaking out of my tuchas on this one. I've had extensive formal training on this. While you are technically correct in that the rule doesn't specifically say "HP ammo," the US has interpreted the "can't use weapons designed to cause undue suffering" requirement to bar HP as well as other expanding ammunition. Using FMJ ammo is universal practice by the world's armies.
The US is a signatory to the Geneva Accords, as is virtually every country in the world. I think Eritrea isn't, but that's the only one I can think of.
If there is even SP ammo in the inventory, I've never heard of it. Everything is jacketed, except for the .45 wadcutters we use on the pistol team for practice. If there was SP or HP ammo in the inventory or if it was allowable, you'd think snipers would have access to it. At least in the USMC they don't. To my knowledge, even SF guys draw weapons and ammo from the same stocks as every other unit. If you mean Delta, then maybe there's some unconventional weapons and ammo, but even there I doubt it.
Breugger, we are indeed signatory to the Geneva Convention, but the Geneva Convention doesn't mention hollowpoints or ANY small arms. The HAGUE ACCORDS (I say again, THE HAGUE ACCORDS) dealt with small arms ammo, and we were NOT a signatory of that.
And neither am I talking out of my butt. I have friends that were in Special Forces units, both Reserve and active Army, and I am going by what they told me re: using hollowpoints in certain situations.
And neither am I talking out of my butt. I have friends that were in Special Forces units, both Reserve and active Army, and I am going by what they told me re: using hollowpoints in certain situations.