Members over 55...has the younger generation any idea what freedom is?

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Piggy

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I'm glad to know that many of the members of this board are older and much wiser than myself (at 25 yrs old). I truly believe that the younger generations are so willing to give up their rights and freedoms because they have never experienced true freedom from government opression and interference into all facets of their life. In other words, they have no previous life experience to which they can compare the current state of liberty in the USA.
My question is this: what was life like before the GCA of '68 and all the other regulatory gunk that has been heaped on the people over the years? What was it like when you could go down to the local gun shop and pick up whatever tool tickled your fancy? What was life like when you weren't treated as an individual on the fringes of society for being a gun owner/hunter/collector. What was life like when it was OK to be a man and hunt food for your family without worrying about being criticized for "animal rights violations". I don't expect an answer to every one of these questions but I would be interested in a bit of a comparison between life in the US as we know it now and how it was back when you were around the age of 20.
 
The real and significant difference is this.
Thirty years ago we had a social system that
worked--it started in the schools.Kids were
taught to reach a standard of performance-and
if they did not then they stayed in their
grade 'til they were ready to move up.
Now there was nothing wrong with that-if a
kid was dumb,or a dork he stayed 'til he got it right.
Sometime later the Social Engineers arrived
and said "everyone has got to have the same
treatment".So along came "social promotion"
every year the dork went up to the next grade
regardless of his performance.
Now what happened then was that most kids
didn't know who was a dork and who wasn't.
The result was that dorks started doing dumb
things and the rest of the kids didn't know
that what was going on was stupid --some of
them thought it was cool.
You'd get a dork sniffing glue or whatever
and others would try it.
The previous generation knew that the guy was
a dork because he was in the dummies class.
They knew if he did something odd it was
because he was a dummy--nobody would even
think about doing what a dummy did.
And that's the difference between then and
now.
 
I aint 55 yet... But I know what freedom is.
Other young members here know too.

The unwashed masses of Gen Xer's and younger - Yeah - they know what freedom is. Because they dont give a damn about anything - they have no responsability. Everything is GIVEN to them - they dont know what WORK is or what it is like to PAY for a CHOICE. Everything they have and do comes at no cost and all there bad choices are PROTECTED and SUPPORTED. They are PAMPERED brats. Spoiled Rotten.
Wouldnt that be freedom? Have everything you want given to you and do what ever the hell you want and not have to pay the price because its always some one elses fault... Must be Nice.

------------------
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
We, the people, are tired of being taxed, penalized, supervised, harassed,
and subjugated by a federal government which exceeds the powers
enumerated in the U.S. Constitution.
 
I well remember when you could take your hunting rifle on board the plane with you and hand it to the stewardess as you got on. You ask what it was like and why did it change? We did it to our selves! It was the guy who shot through the bulkhead with the mag hand gun causing the aircraft to crash killing every one on board or the guy who took his guns to the top of Texas tower or on and on. This last rush of shootings at school will be the straw of what we are doing to our selves that give the Antis food for the program. How can we stop it? I don't think there is enough time and I don't think the Antis will ever relax so that we can turn some of it back. Sad isn't it that a few people can screw it up for everyone! Bet you can't hit that stop sign!
 
Although I'm only 48, I do remember what it was like to be free. Just wish I had the time to try and explain it. There was a higher law that held one to the straight and narrow. It was called social pressure. Since everyone in the community knew each other and always involved with each other in some one, when one made a mistake, everyone would point it out to you for the next 100 years. Through fear of redicule one learned personal responsibility. Example was when I was 12 and hauling hay for the first time. I was about dead on the first day and ready to quit. My partner looked at me and said 'Hell Pierce, your tuff, you can take it.' Most people today don't know the sense of pride that comes with finishing out a day like that.

As to the community events such as barn rasin's etc. they were a chance to get away from the day to day chores and have a little fun.

As to firearms... no big deal... They were just a tool. Something that everyone had and carried with them. The gun racks in each and every truck always had at least a 30-30. they were used mostly for pest control. Although hunting was fun, the main purpose of it was to put meat on the table. Most people today don't have any idea what it is like to loose over half of your yearly income to an over population of jack rabbits comming into your alfalfa field or Willy E. Coyote taking out a third of your lamb crop.

As a young man I was more concerned where I was going to come up with the money for the next box of shells. The thought that buying a gun was evil was never even thought about.

I as most of the boys (and some of the girls) got our first high powered rifle as our 8th grade graduation present. Mine was an 8mm mouser.

Freedom, what is it like? When one has freedom you don't think about it. You live without fear of the government. You do what is necessary to live and what is acceptable to the community. You don't worry about the IRS comming in and placing a lein on your property because they said you did not pay your 19XX taxes. You don't worry about getting that building permit, having all the studies done etc. just to put in the chicken coup. If you need it, you built it. If you needed a cannon to blow up that pack of wolves taking your calfs you just went to the hardware store and got it. No big deal, if it needed to be done you did it.



------------------
Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
 
I grew up in a "less than well-to-do" neighborhood New York City, so never experienced the rural life. However . . .

In the late 40's when we kids saw a cop, we'd shout "What's the color of an old penny?". The other guy would shout, "Dirty Copper!" and we'd run like Hell, snickering all the way -- until another cop caught me and brought me home. The Old Man pounded my a$$ for disrespect and made me squeal on my buddy, who also got pounded. Those were the days when there was PARENTING.

About once a year a big truck would come to our neighborhood. Inside the truck was an electric chair mock up at one end. The cops and parents made us all walk through from one end to the other, as if we were walking the Last Mile. One parent made his kid sit in the damned thing (a Jimmy Cagney type). Scared the CRAP out of him and us.

I used to fish the lakes in Central Park with never a thought of danger, and there never was. Night time in the park was for lovers, not rapists. If there was a mugging there (rare!), you gave the guy your money and you both split. If a dead body was found in an alley, it was usually a hood that tried to muscle in on the numbers racket. The Daily News always published their circulation numbers and you played the last three.

A buddy of mine moved down from 135th street - a rough area. He was a gang member and told me how they used to break off car aerials to use as .22 barrels. Said gas blew out the back as much as the front, but "Everyone had one". Said he shot at one guy in the heat of battle, saw the guy's leather jacket impact from the shot, and nearly wet himself. The guy beat the crap out of him as the velocity loss was so great, the ball literally bounced off the leather.

In the mid-50s I bought a Mossberg M144 target rifle, carried in down to the range (in a case) on the bus or subway with never a comment.

I bought one of those .310 Martini Cadet rifles then advertised in the Rifleman. It came, wrapped in newspaper and wired to a 1"x6"x5' board, via the U.S. Mail.

In 1956 I bought a Ruger Single Six from the company, who shipped it directly to me when I was in Colorado.

Guns were everywhere and there were no problems with them. Everybody knew that if you broke the law, you were gonna pay, and pay soon.

Time for Gramps to stop reminiscing -- I will tell you that you will never see that kind of freedom again, and if the trend isn't changed, your kids won't see the freedom you have today.


------------------
The New World Order has a Third Reich odor.
 
I started elementary school in 1940, in Austin, Texas. Through the rest of public school, I don't recall anybody ever seriously sassing a teacher. I recall no notable violence around school, unless one gets excited about a student-refereed one-on-one "fight". And "fair" fighting was the only way any fighting was allowed. If somebody pulled a knife, he was shunned by all the rest. Same for kicking or ganiging up...

Most of us, even the "townies" had .22 rifles in the closet, from somewhere around age 10 or 12 onward. Nobody ever took a gun to school, nor did I ever hear anybody threaten anybody else...

After success at deer-hunting, and you had your buck on the fender or in the back of your truck (or on top of my VW bus), folks would grin and give you a thumbs-up.

My mother is 89, and still does NY Times Sunday crosswords in ink--sometimes only from the horizontal clues; sometimes only the vertical. Her comment about today's world: "But you know, we had *Statesmen*, then."

During the Vietnam war, I always had trouble understanding why people were so upset about blood on the battlefield. Did they think it was a damned Hollywood movie? That a battlefield is a "neat place"? What in the world did they expect? And then I came to realize that as a society, we are nothing but spoiled brats. "Roughing it" means the heater in the swimming pool failed, or the ATM is out of order. We've just had a Saturday-night binge for way too long, and nobody thinks Sunday morning will ever come.

We have come to believe that life should be risk-free. Safe as a swaddling-cloth baby in Mommy's arms. Ralph Nader says so; if we can just pass enough laws and write enough regulations, the world will not only be fool-proof, it will be damned-fool-proof. Why else the yowl and howl about Medical Care For All, and Fix Social Insecurity? Airbags and seatbelt/helmet laws?

I don't think that way. I live on the wrong side of a creek which is sometimes impassable. I was asked, "But if it's flooding, and you have a heart attack, what do you do?" "I die." But I won't die having merely existed. I will die having lived.

:), Art
 
Not 55. Like bookie, I'm 47, 2 months shy of 48. Short answer to the question is Yes.
(Apologies for the incorrect word before the edit)
. I see a lot of posts, read a lot of comments, and listen to a lot of people 10, 20 and 30 years my junior. They all seem to realize the same thing. It isn't working. Whatever the people of the middle years did, just isn't working. I see an overwhelming reactionary attitude, not the revolutionary attitude that put this stuff in place circa 60's and 70's. I see questions about the manner in which things are addressed, and why things seem to be getting worse instead of better. I look at the posters here, many of them are in the 10 to 20 year my junior age group, and see a lot of conviction and determination. A lot of that is colored by the fire of youth, but I also see a lot of in your face, you had your chance, and your plan went to $hit, so now it's our turn. I see a lot of hope for the future.
Rich
AKA Hal

[This message has been edited by RAE (edited December 21, 1999).]
 
I know this is no answer to your questions piggy, but it is my way of sticking up for the few of us that are not old enough to remember freedom, but will fight for it just the same. And I am thankful to the others that have stuck up for us too.

I am twenty-two. I've had a job sense I was seven because my family was broke and I needed to carry my own weight. It was my choice because there were certain things I needed but my parents couldn't supply. If I did anything out of line I was punished. That's how it was, and I think it made me a better person.
Like any kid I pushed the fences to see how far I could get and I found a lot of give so I took it, that doesn't mean I was any more pampered, actually I took the hard way about things.
I was living out of my car at sixteen. Yes my car, bought and paid for with my money. I'll tell you I lost a lot of weight but I supported myself. I hated being in debt to anybody for anything. I wanted to work for it, I wanted to show everyone a 'freak' like me wasn't a bum, I was just hard-working and poor.
Maybe I have never seen freedom, but that doesn't mean I don't have any idea what it is. What I have in place of those freedoms is frustration and anger because I can see a growing number of people handing their freedom over to the government on a silver platter. The government doesn't need any more power. We were supposed to be living in a republic ruled by the people, not a democracy ruled by a government.
The new cries of 'we're not worthy of freedom' that have risen up disgust and confuse me. History has proved time and time again that weapons in the hands of the people insure freedom for all, but not all have learned that simple fact yet.
"This is America. It will never happen here." This, my friends, is what the other gun owners that have not stood up for their rights are saying and thinking. This 'couldn't be bothered' attitude should be fought and killed.


------------------
Gun control isnt about guns, Its about control.
 
Art explained our "early years" more accurately than I could.

I was raised in rural northwestern Pennsylvania and spent some summers in
central PA. Judge for yourself if we used to be more “free”.

"Back then," pistols, rifles, and shotguns were tools - sold at hardware
stores, Western Auto, Sears, Montgomery Wards, etc. You walked in,
plunked down your money and left with whatever you bought.

If the store didn’t have what you wanted, they’d order it or you could order
it yourself through the mail. Shop owners wouldn’t sell me cigarettes
because they knew my Dad didn’t smoke - but I could buy all the
ammunition I could pay for!!

Hunting licenses were hunting licenses - period. There may have been an
additional stamp for ducks but I never bothered with it.

Fishing licenses were a travesty foisted upon us by the State! They cost
fifty cents or a dollar so we seldom bothered unless the game warden
caught us. He’d tell us sternly to get one by tomorrow or else! We never
needed to be told twice!

Guns and ammo were commonplace. One lunch time at school I ran across
the street and bought a box of .22LRs at the Western Auto. Back in school I
had no place to put it so it was on my desktop. My teacher saw the box,
picked it up and idly asked something about whether they were
hollowpoints. They weren't. She put the box back on my desk and
continued the lesson. No problem "back then".

A shootin’ place was anyplace with a good backstop and no livestock or
crops. We used to shoot "bobbers" (metal floats from fishnets) in Lake Erie.
Sixty-some mile backstop (grin), targets that bobbed in the waves, plunked
nice and loud when you hit 'em, and didn't leave broken glass to cut your
feet later when you went swimming. We must have shot thousands of
them.

Kids walking down the road with guns was typical and farmers would stop
their truck in the middle of the road and ask if you wanted a lift.

On the highway, semi-drivers were the "white knights of the road". They
ALWAYS stopped if a lady had car trouble and almost always for anyone
else.

We left our house unlocked even when we went on vacation - just in case
somebody needed to use the phone.

If a neighbor was "bad sick" or "hurt bad", friends and neighbors brought
food, fed livestock and even harvested crops. It was the right thing to do.
You could be hurt next week. Nobody ever imagined involving the
government.

The government was something small and far away. In 1948, I believe less
than half the families in America earned enough to pay income tax.
Inflation creep has moved us all up the tables and the IRS has become a
huge bureaucracy.

Gun control simply meant "be careful" and “hit your mark”.

Drive-in movies were the rage and, when we were too young to drive, we
walked in the "exit" and sat on benches in front of the refreshment stand
where a speaker was provided. Watched "hundreds" of Elvis Presley movies
and swooned over Natalie Wood (sigh!).

In big towns there were big schools and enough students in each class for
social cliques to develop. In my high school, the children of millionaires (two
kids) had to associate with ALL forty-some kids in the class.

If one of the "good" students wanted to help (actually "tutor") one of the
poorer students, they'd sit in the hall during study hall so they could talk
without bothering other students. The teacher kept track of us and there
was never a problem.

Fights happened, as Art described. And when it was over - it was over.
Opponents shaking hands afterwards was fairly commonplace.

You didn't sass teachers - at least not twice (grin!). You didn't grab or
harass the girls or the boys would whup on you. Talking trash about a
person's family meant, "We're gonna fight now."

It was a different time - pre-birth control. If a girl's skirt crept above her
knee when she sat, she probably did "it". One of the most frequent replies
to a marriage proposal was the boy asking, "You're WHAT?"

Honor and respect, even for strangers, was much more prevalent. Teachers
and parents knew, directed, corrected, and (when necessary) spanked kids.
Done deal. Taken for granted. That was acceptable because the teachers
enforced the same values our families did, not something from Europe, Asia,
the accursed teachers’ union, or some crackpot psychologist!

Values were typically similar throughout a community. Violators were
shunned. Severe violators usually moved away.

The family unit was a “unit”! The man worked outside the home and the
woman kept the house (and/or helped in the field). Schoolkids had chores.
Some women had jobs, but (in a married family) it usually meant the man
was not working - a dishonorable sign of laziness or the understandable
result of injury or illness. Ladies did not feel “owned” because they pretty
much ran the family. Dad was the final authority and backed Mom all the
way (if he was smart ;))

Many aspects now considered to be chauvinism or prejudice were just
accepted and dealt with. Folks knew the system and, for the most part,
followed it.

I guess I have to add that we had no Hispanics in my area. There were
some blacks, whom we all called “Negroes” - just as they called themselves.
They did not have equality with whites - that was wrong. But you didn’t
mess with people because of their skin color. If some whites started
name-calling, other whites put a quick stop to that nonsense. There were
no hyphenated Americans. We were all members of the same community
even though we did not socialize much together (except at school, church,
fairs, etc.).

There was more space. You could breathe in it. There were fewer people
and little fear of each other or the government because we had self-imposed
limits to our behavior.

If you wanted to build a house on your property, the only limit was money.
If someone had told my Dad that he needed a permit to build something or
to dig a water well, he would have laughed it off as an obvious and hilarious
joke.

Game wardens were very rare. The few police we had would come if you
had a problem and called them. Typically, you just chased the offender off
your property and told his Dad later what happened. That REALLY got kids
in trouble because it shamed the entire family.

Now things have changed. The "pill" revolutionized relationships and
television has fragmented families. The government has stepped in to
“improve” our lives. Between the government and the increased roles of
women the false impression is created that there is no need for fathers in
families - except to pay child support. What a disaster!

Some government involvement has been good. Doctors and medics
returning from Korea said they got better medical care on the battlefield
than on American highways so they revolutionized civilian medicine,
established the concept of a dispersed ambulance system (EMS), defined
“the golden hour” and greatly improved trauma care and training.
Emergency medicine has become recognized as a separate medical field
with its own distinct operational needs.

But the downside to government involvement is obvious to all of us today.
Our intrusive federal government is smothering us.

To those of us who remember times which were simpler and more free,
modern technology can be an ugly two-edged sword.

We have the internet but don’t know our neighbors.
We have TV but don’t know our own families.
We have safer lives but we are ruled by despots.
We have a nation of educated people who don’t say what they mean, and
don’t mean what they say because interpersonal relations and
communications have been elevated to a deceptive, manipulative, black art
form.
We have a nation of people with fewer values and more government
directives.

We had fewer people. We weren’t so crowded. We pretty much got along
with people because we believed it was the right thing to do. We had much
less technology but much more freedom. Methods were important; but
half-hearted attempts were unacceptable. Results (rather than socially
acceptable “attempts”) were what counted.

Self-discipline and values were stressed. Sure, some people cheated, but
their reputations were ruined so cheating was minimized. Now it’s taught in
business school.

The small and distant federal government simply was not a factor in our
everyday lives. Local government officials had to get along with us because
they lived among us! We’d go to their homes in the evening and give them
the bloody devil if they performed badly! Now, our government officials
only know each other and their biggest donors.

We have made a lot of trade-offs that sometimes look pretty ugly to me.

Of course, MY father told me how free HE had been as a youngster and he
chafed at the increasing rules and regulations of the 1940s and 1950s. I
accepted the status quo just as most youngsters did and still do. But as
you get older you have a longer time period over which to make
comparisons. It becomes easier to see how the government has
salami-sliced away our freedoms. Therefore, it is usually the old men like
me who complain about increasing government intrusion into our lives while
the youngsters ignore it as “old man talk”. (Smile) Wait until you’re our
age, kids.

Were we more free then than now? I think that’s the wrong question.
Restrictions back then were self-imposed. Usually it worked well,
sometimes not so well. Now, however, restrictions are imposed upon us. Is
that working?
- How many of your family members are as close as we used to be?
- How many of your friends would take your family into their homes for
several months if your home burned down?
- How many of your neighbors would help you rebuild your destroyed
home?
- How many families take care of their elderly relatives in their homes?
- How many members of your family are close to you and share your
values?
- How many members of your community have the same values as
teachers teach our kids in school?
- How much of your labor and savings does the government extort from
you and spend on things you despise?

Many of you younger folks already see how governments oppress us. More
of your generation will awaken as you all age. It’s just a fact of life.

The 20th century was a humdinger! Good luck, kids, with your 21st
century. Don’t let television, the internet, and computer games separate
you from your children. And please, please teach your kids about freedom
better than we taught you.

I apologize for the length of this ramble.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited December 21, 1999).]
 
George, be advised: I am a "Gen-xer." I'm 24 years old, tattooed, I listen to rap and heavy metal. I'm also a veteran of the US Army. After a few years in the infantry, I feel insulted when lumped into a group and labeled as a slacker. I'm currently in my 3rd year of college on the GI Bill. After graduation, my plans are to go back in as a 2nd Lt. As a gun owner, and a patriot, I understand the frustration expressed by TFL members. I do not understand the stereotyping of people because of age. After all, the biggest problem in this country is the politicians. How old are they?

------------------
Where the choice is between only violence and
cowardice, I would advise violence."
— Mohandas Gandhi
www.acs.brockport.edu/~jg5708/gunclub.htm
 
Great read Dennis.

George I'm one of the washed [even behind he ears] gen x'ers.

I can remember waling into gun shop [across street from high school] and waling back out with 30-30 lever gun. This was even in Kalifornia.

As to sacrifice I have two trucks one with blown tranny front pump and the other with water pump going out because I spent all my cash buying a 308 supermatch. Because they will be banned soon.
 
To answer the question posed in the topic:

Some of us do. Not enough, but enough to make a difference, if we have the backing of the older folks. Do we?

------------------
"The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it."
-- John Hay, 1872
 
Aww, John. Be glad (as we old buggers are) that you are one of the exceptions.

Every generality has exceptions. My kids are 32, 23, and 22. They all have been working at least half-time since they were juniors in high school and full-time (or more) since they graduated. They aren't slackers either - but many of your contemporaries are. I know. I tried to give, GIVE, them jobs and they wouldn't do it.

There are exceptions in every generation. Even in my own family! (Shhh! My Mother, my own Mother, used to be a Democrat!!!)

So, when you know the "rule" doesn't apply to you, don't take exception it. Bust your buns in college, get your degree and your commission (smart move, BTW!!) and have a good career.

Um. One point, though. Don't trust a single thing they tell you about retired benefits! ;)
-----

Coinneach,

You have our backing and the benefit of our experience. Now if you'll just let us *lean* on ya for support once in a while....(Help me up here.... Thanks!

The worst for you young guys will be the listening to our long, drawn-out war stories (ref mine, above).

The best will be letting you see our mistakes so you can avoid 'em.

I'm getting a Shiner Bock. You need one? :)

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited December 21, 1999).]
 
Dennis, please post your questions in a new thread so that we may all answer them in public. I'd like to see that because it would be enlightening. To John G and all the Gen X'ers (if that is is even fair to you), I am glad your are here. You only have friends in this camp, regardless of age.
 
It's not about age. It's an attitude. And believe it or not it's role models. We all have our heroes.
The idea of disappearing freedoms is a reality. As some of the elders have pointed out, it was a lot different way back then.
I lived a while in Kentucky and they refer to "back in the good old days when times were hard".
A lot of the younger folks probably dont realize that things have changed as much as they have because nowadays history is changed to suit the situation or ignored altogether.
One of the really neat things about being old is that, relatively speaking, you have seen a lot and can see what changes "progress" has brought us.
We are living in a time which confuses motion with progress and it didnt used to be like that.

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 
The younger generation doesn't know the difference between 'freedom' and 'license'. They want a life of instant gratification without consequences, and those in power pander to that desire. This means that all aspects of life must be rigidly predictable, and conformable. So it seems that there is greater restriction than in earlier times. I'm in my sixties. When we were kids, there was LESS freedom than there is now, because we knew that if we did something stupid, our peers, parents, school or society would pin our ears back for it. It was assumed that we were bright enough to realize that. Those who consistently demonstrated lack of responsibility were punished, segregated, ostracized or institutionalized. Values were mostly derived from religion, and penalties legally and socially were pretty harsh. This kept us on good behaviour for the most part. Good behaviour was rewarded, bad was punished. We were required to learn self-control. Now, values are secular. Good behaviour is what makes you rich or powerful. Right is what looks good on a resume', and truth is what fits in a sound bite. We want to be safe, so we accept exploitation of our fear for the appearence of security. As long as there are a few of us oldsters left, there'll still be some balance in our society. I hate to think what life in the late 21st century will be like...and am glad I won't have to live through it. slabsides
 
As a generation X'r who has taught in a University I'm afraid that the current generation doesn't have much of an idea about liberty and freedom. On the other hand there appears to be about 5% who do and they seem to understand it much better than the old-timers.

Few things will tick me off more than the old WWII generation trying to lecture us about liberty. True they defeated the NAZIs but even Fascists(Italy) didn't think too highly of the NAZIs.

And the mess we have today happened on the older generations' watch. Gun control, what about '68. Social Security, department of education, medicare, and all the unconstitutional mess was still before my time. And it was their damn kids, the boomers, who really and truly have no appreciation for liberty or the Constitution. They are the ones(demographically) who have doomed the future of this country as far as I can see.

Well enough of a rant for today.
 
An interesting thread.
Did you know that 150 years ago the population of the US was 20 million?What is it now---and where did all those extra people
come from?
The population of Australia is 20 million now.
I guess that any forward-thinking Australian
would be buying land for his future descendents.
BTW I think the Ad mens attempts to classify
us to suit their marketing plans are just
rubbish---I don't believe in demographics.
It's a con.Newspapers promote the idea too
so they can write endless and confused stories about it.
 
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