Medium-sized .380 ACP pistols

The Walther PK380 is also locked-breech, and is known for really soft recoil, although I find the pistol to be badly flawed in several other aspects that I've discussed at length in past threads here. :)

One pistol that's somewhat interesting in respect to the blowback v. locked breech discussion is the EAA Witness Pavona, because the .380 version is blowback, whereas the 9mm/.40 versions are locked-breech. The .380 is marginally smaller through the slide and USED to be marginally cheaper as well, although the EAA website now shows the same MSRP for all Pavonas other than two-tone versions. I've not shot any of them because range rentals seem nonexistent in my area, but I've posited in past threads that I don't understand why anyone would buy the .380 version over the 9mm, as it promises to combine harsher felt recoil and higher slide operation force with less powerful and more expensive ammunition. :rolleyes:

[EDIT TO ADD] One other problem that afflicts many mid-size .380 pistols is high slide operation force due to the need for a stiff recoil spring. The Walther PP-series is renowned for this, and despite my fondness for the Beretta Series 81 (i.e. 81/82/84/85), there's no denying that the slides are harder to operate than those of virtually any modern 9mm pistol.
 
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"...it will be chambered in 9mm; not .380."



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I understand this is your personal choice but there's something I find puzzling about this. People say the FBI standard is 12 to 18 inches of penetration. Well, the Lehigh in .32 ACP did this in ballistics gel. The difference in bullet diameter is only about 1mm. The only thing I can think of is the difference in energy (or maybe also the size of the cavity). I assume that a 70 grain bullet and 115 grain bullet at the same velocity will have different energy levels but is it that different? I mean the statistics on fatality rates (I posted a link in one of my .32 ACP threads) wasn't that different between the .22 lr and 9mm.
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So I guess you have me puzzled: are you making the argument that there's no significant ballistic difference (that might translate to "stopping power") between the 9mm cartridge and any of the .380/.32/.22 trio you referenced? If not, we'd all be toting .22s.

As I said, it's my understanding that there's enough difference between the 9mm and the .380 in terms of potential "stopping power" that if a pistol is of 9mm size and weight, it will be chambered in 9mm, not .380, if I plan to carry it concealed for self-defense. That's just my take on an issue that's hard to prove empirically either way.
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A couple years ago, I bought an Israeli surplus Beretta 84F from Coles distributing.
I bought it because the price was cheap, and because it was a pistol I had wanted when I was younger. I figured I'd shoot it for a while just to try it out, and eventually use it for trade bait.
However, after shooting it, that plan went out the window. It just shoots so well, and fits my my hand perfectly. As somebody who enjoyed shooting a Model 19 snub using 357 ammo and the little magna wood grips, I don't find the recoil annoying with this blowback 380.
Although I have more potent handguns, I often use the Beretta 84 for carry or HD use. I don't really feel underarmed with 14 rounds of Underwood +P XTP's, hydrashocks, or even FMJ. It points like finger close up, and is capable of surprising accuracy at longer ranges.
 
Fishbed77 said:
Because 9x19mm is so much more effective, recoil is typically lower in a locked-breech design (compared to typical blowback .380s), and ammo is less expensive, there isn't really any market demand for mid-sized .380 pistols (outside of markets where pistols chambered in "military" rounds like 9x19mm aren't allowed by law).
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Beretta's US reintroduction of the Cheetah, particularly with prices in the $600-$800 range, would suggest some market demand.
 
This, above. medium sized 380's fly off the shelf here. Sig P238, Bersa Thunders, Beretta model 84's and 85's, Ruger LC380's. Lots of demand!
 
Beretta's US reintroduction of the Cheetah, particularly with prices in the $600-$800 range, would suggest some market demand.
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The Cheetah is a blowback-operated pistol with a fairly heavy recoil spring, as as such, recoil is similar to most locked-breech 9mm designs, which misses the point of what the OP thinks he's looking for.
 
Fishbed77 said:
The Cheetah is a blowback-operated pistol with a fairly heavy recoil spring, as as such, recoil is similar to most locked-breech 9mm designs, which misses the point of what the OP thinks he's looking for.
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Comments about "typical blowback .380s" and "market demand for mid-sized .380 pistols" may be irrelevant to what the OP seeks, but even supposedly less-desirable mid-sized blowback .380s are in demand.
 
OK, I decided to make a list of blowback and locked breech .380 pistols and now I have another question. Why are there so many made with a blowback design if it causes more recoil?

Locked breech handguns
Browning 1911-380
Walther PK380
Chiappa (Girsan) MC14 (*may be blowback)

Blowback handguns
Beretta 84/85
Walther PPK/S
Tanfoglio Witness Pavona
Tisas FaTiH 13
Grand Power P380
Bersa Thunder 380
Armscor Baby Rock 380
Llama Micromax
 
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Is a PPK/S still "medium" if I carry it in my pocket?:rolleyes:

Mine is a Manhurin....easily the most uncomfortable pistol I shoot. Very snappy. For the same weight, I am going to switch over to a 9mm Shield.
 
The only mid sized 380 I have ever wanted was a Taurus model 58. I believe it is a copy of the Beretta model 85. But I have never wanted one bad enough to buy it. But if a deal on one came along...

Here is the only one listed on GB. But its a reserve auction and I refuse to play the "guess how much I want for this" game. If the seller can't start with a price they can live with then I will not bid.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/635553219

Besides this is close in size to my S&W model 39-2. So nothing really to be gained by going with a lower powered round.
 
A Taurus PT-58 is one of my favorite Taurus guns, but I would rather have a Beretta 84 and 85, the best .380's ever made, IMHO. I wanted an 85 for a long long time, and finally got one recently. Real clean, just a few specks of the anodizing gone on the back of the grip and a little muzzle wear.
 
there are quite a few Colt Government .380s around if you look. Mine is an exceptionally nice gun with little recoil:

dcf15c4fdf1eb003e464a6bcc6142236382a489.jpg
 
OK, I decided to make a list of blowback and locked breech .380 pistols and now I have another question. Why are there so many made with a blowback design if it causes more recoil?
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They are simpler in operation and simpler and cheaper to manufacture.

The .380ACP round does not typically require a locked breech to operate safely, and when most of these pistols were designed, minimizing felt recoil was not a top priority.
 
Armybrat, I can't tell from the photo whether the Colt (I'm assuming it's a Mustang .380) really qualifies as a pocket pistol or medium size. Although I can understand why some people would consider either the Colt or the Glock 42 (or Sig Sauer P238, or Kahr CT380 or Ruger LC380 or the Smith & Wesson M&P Bodyguard 380). But here is my revised list:


Browning 1911-380
Walther PK380
Beretta 84/85
Tanfoglio Witness Pavona
Bersa Thunder 380
Canik C100
Girsan MC14
Tisas FaTiH 13
Grand Power P380
Rock Island Armory Baby Rock 380
Kalashnikov mp-71

I "cleaned up" the list in the way to change some names like for example the Baby Rock 380 from what I saw is called the Rock Island Armory Baby Rock, not Armscor. I'm not an expert but from my short research I'm assuming the top 4 in the list may be the higher quality models, anyway...
 
I just accidentally posted this in your .32acp thread--a danger in having too many tabs open--but I suppose it's relevant enough. As I said over there:

"... the Girsan MC-14 is currently being imported by Zenith. The black version looks to be available in a few places. Sadly, I've been on the hunt for a stainless or "white" version. It was seeing it with the fancy wood grips in this video review that did me in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2ISQxWA7Tw

I've got notification requests in at a bunch of sites. Maybe I'll get lucky..."
 
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