I am surprised that some of the federal jackboots don't refuse these types of raids. Sure they would lose their jobs but don't these jackboots have a conscience? What a lousy way to make a living. Good thing the family was unarmed. Otherwise the Butcher of Waco's Jackbooted Thugs would have murdered the entire bunch.
Meditations on the kid.
- Thread starter LawDog
- Start date
The following is only personal opinion.
I'm really not that displeased with what happened today.
Why? Read on.
1.It's making the current Administration look bad. Sure, Gore tried to distance himself from the whole thing in a press release, but the fact remains he is the 2nd in command, and if he had felt that strongly against what happened he could have been VERY vocal about it.
2.Elian is a minor.
His next of kin (his father) lives in Cuba.
Juan Miguel & Elian are Cuban citizens.
It's a no-brainer, Elian belongs with his father.
It doesn't matter that the U.S. is a better place to live.
That shouldn't have even become an issue.
3.Apparently a few hours after the "raid" Elian was in good spirits and pleased to be back with Dad.
This never should have become so complicated.
If Elian was even 15yo he would be viewed as just another illegal alien and sent back ASAP.
That's just what I think, -Kframe
I'm really not that displeased with what happened today.
Why? Read on.
1.It's making the current Administration look bad. Sure, Gore tried to distance himself from the whole thing in a press release, but the fact remains he is the 2nd in command, and if he had felt that strongly against what happened he could have been VERY vocal about it.
2.Elian is a minor.
His next of kin (his father) lives in Cuba.
Juan Miguel & Elian are Cuban citizens.
It's a no-brainer, Elian belongs with his father.
It doesn't matter that the U.S. is a better place to live.
That shouldn't have even become an issue.
3.Apparently a few hours after the "raid" Elian was in good spirits and pleased to be back with Dad.
This never should have become so complicated.
If Elian was even 15yo he would be viewed as just another illegal alien and sent back ASAP.
That's just what I think, -Kframe
Jeff Thomas
New member
Let's get back to 'meditations' on Elian. To be frank, I've not watched every lick of this story from the beginning. And, I have a few questions that I believe are pertinent.
1. Children should be with their parents - I agree with that. But, there are interesting questions here:
a. I hear that Elian was fathered while the parents were either not married, or while they were separated for some time. Correct?
b. I hear that Elian has either lived with his father very little, or not at all. Correct?
c. I note that the Clinton administration argues strenuously that this child must be with his surviving parent. However, don't various levels of government actually take children away from parents under various circumstances, and place them with other family members, or unrelated foster parents? So, what makes this case different that it is a black and white decision that this boy must return to Cuba?
In essence, I get the strong impression that most of us are operating on either too little or bad data, conveniently provided by the Clinton administration ... to make it look like this is a no-brainer decision to return the boy to his father.
I'm serious about those questions above. What is the reality in this case? Thanks.
Regards from AZ
1. Children should be with their parents - I agree with that. But, there are interesting questions here:
a. I hear that Elian was fathered while the parents were either not married, or while they were separated for some time. Correct?
b. I hear that Elian has either lived with his father very little, or not at all. Correct?
c. I note that the Clinton administration argues strenuously that this child must be with his surviving parent. However, don't various levels of government actually take children away from parents under various circumstances, and place them with other family members, or unrelated foster parents? So, what makes this case different that it is a black and white decision that this boy must return to Cuba?
In essence, I get the strong impression that most of us are operating on either too little or bad data, conveniently provided by the Clinton administration ... to make it look like this is a no-brainer decision to return the boy to his father.
I'm serious about those questions above. What is the reality in this case? Thanks.
Regards from AZ
Dennis. Regarding your comment about Elian's father wanting to come here to live with his son. There was a comment by Peter Jennings, earlier this week, where he said that all of Elian's fathers family were being "entertained" at a government "resort". So if Elian's father tries to stay here, could be his whole family will be shot? Something to think about.
Also, Since Castro said that Elian would be "re-educated", if I were the judge, I would rule that he would stay here.
Paul B.
Also, Since Castro said that Elian would be "re-educated", if I were the judge, I would rule that he would stay here.
Paul B.
Why, according to Janet ElReno, were the MP5's necessary?
Because the JD 'possibly' had evidence from their 'intelligence' that their 'MIGHT' be guns in the house.
This sets a precedent, folks. If there just 'might' be guns somewhere then any and all force is justified.
This is one sorry day for America and the RKBA.
Because the JD 'possibly' had evidence from their 'intelligence' that their 'MIGHT' be guns in the house.
This sets a precedent, folks. If there just 'might' be guns somewhere then any and all force is justified.
This is one sorry day for America and the RKBA.
jeffelkins
New member
I'd be much happier if I saw some of the supposedly pro-RKBA beat-cop LEOs condemning this particular bit of Nazi jackbootism.
It's strangely appropriate on Easter:
Forgive Them Father...They Know Not What They Do
It's strangely appropriate on Easter:
Forgive Them Father...They Know Not What They Do
My thoughts on the situation.
The mother is dead, the boy belongs with his father.
I don't give a fat rodents rear end that Dad happens to live in Cuba. The boy belongs with his father.
So what if he grows up in Cuba? Thousands of pefectly normal kids are growing up in Cuba everyday. Its their country. Its where they belong.
The media has blown this whole thing completely out of proportion just because they could.
The government has screwed this thing up since day one.
The real problem here is that everybody is going at the problem on a purely emotional level.
The Cuban government wants the kid back just to make a point.
The Cuban Americans in Miami want the kid to stay just to defy Castro because they hate him.
"Slick" and Reno want to flex their muscles to show they have the power.
Frankly, I don't see where anybody has the boys best intrest in mind. The poor kid is nothing more than a pawn in a BS political game.
I agree with RikWriter, other solutions should have been tried first.
This mornings raid was a crock. It never should have gone down that way.
Leave the kid alone! Let him go home with his father and try to salvage something of a normal life.
God knows he's screwed up bad enough as it is.
JMHO.
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TFL's official "Curmudgeon Member" and damned proud of it!
The mother is dead, the boy belongs with his father.
I don't give a fat rodents rear end that Dad happens to live in Cuba. The boy belongs with his father.
So what if he grows up in Cuba? Thousands of pefectly normal kids are growing up in Cuba everyday. Its their country. Its where they belong.
The media has blown this whole thing completely out of proportion just because they could.
The government has screwed this thing up since day one.
The real problem here is that everybody is going at the problem on a purely emotional level.
The Cuban government wants the kid back just to make a point.
The Cuban Americans in Miami want the kid to stay just to defy Castro because they hate him.
"Slick" and Reno want to flex their muscles to show they have the power.
Frankly, I don't see where anybody has the boys best intrest in mind. The poor kid is nothing more than a pawn in a BS political game.
I agree with RikWriter, other solutions should have been tried first.
This mornings raid was a crock. It never should have gone down that way.
Leave the kid alone! Let him go home with his father and try to salvage something of a normal life.
God knows he's screwed up bad enough as it is.
JMHO.
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TFL's official "Curmudgeon Member" and damned proud of it!
He's a pawn, the 3 hour post raid video of him laughing and loving with his father proved it. He's where he belongs, sad part is he will now be used as political capital by Klinton/Reno/Gore.
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I thought I'd seen it all, until a 22WMR spun a bunny 2 1/4 times in the air!
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I thought I'd seen it all, until a 22WMR spun a bunny 2 1/4 times in the air!
Patrick Graham
Moderator
As a father who went through the child custody/alienation thing, all I can say is that no one from the fed's or locals ever stepped in on behalf of my children or me. I absolutely resent some of the anti-father crap I've heard in an effort to justify what happened to that kid.
The feds let it hang too long. Did they have a reason for that?
Did anyone notice that klinton and Bore were recently interviewed by the justice department about illegal campaign contributions and playing hide the weenie with lost e-mails?? I didn't think so.
This Elian thing has been diverting our attention.
The feds let it hang too long. Did they have a reason for that?
Did anyone notice that klinton and Bore were recently interviewed by the justice department about illegal campaign contributions and playing hide the weenie with lost e-mails?? I didn't think so.
This Elian thing has been diverting our attention.
Ive never fully understood the reluctance of the miami relatives to allow the boy to see his father......I dont know if Manuel had just walked up to the house the people their would have stopped him from leaving with his child....which makes me wonder why there was such orchestration from all this--the answer has to be political gain both the U.S. administrations and Castro's. A question I have is reguarding campaign contributions to Ms. Clinton, or Algore, has Castro donated any lately..lol.......
It would seem to me that the mother of this child had sole custody. She sought to bring the child here and as we know died on the way. When the child reached here under immigration law, and being cuban It is almost a "automatic" request for political asylum---I believe cuba still rates lower,(by this I mean they are committed communists and enemies of our country, they have been recognized as having extreme human rights violations against their citizens, not that some others do not, Im not sure if you could compare a governmental policy like cuba's with poor economic conditions...that exists in other 3rd world countries)... than the surrounding countries of the U.S.,....such as mexico, hati, and the other island countries that send boat loads of people from time to time.....
I havent been following this all that much anyway, ive been amazed that at work were there are latinos from the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico and Cuban's and that aside from the cubans the latinos Ive spoke briefly with concerning this surprised me with their answer---that they felt that the cubans in Miami didnt believe the law applied to them that they considered themselves a special class, and since America sent other illegals back to their countries the boy should go back too....Im still hashing it out, but I tend to believe the child needs to be with his father, on the other hand would we in this country send a child with his father if the courts thought it would not be in the childs best interest, abuse etc.,which would be involved in the childs living conditions, I think cuba qualifies as abuse--the children normally will be taken from their parents and taught agriculture (rasing sugar cane)in a collective farm. I have a concern that sending this child to cuba will allow castro to gain politically in a large way, the child can be a political pawn for castro for decades or until his brother replaces castro upon his death.
Interesting entanglements........fubsy.
It would seem to me that the mother of this child had sole custody. She sought to bring the child here and as we know died on the way. When the child reached here under immigration law, and being cuban It is almost a "automatic" request for political asylum---I believe cuba still rates lower,(by this I mean they are committed communists and enemies of our country, they have been recognized as having extreme human rights violations against their citizens, not that some others do not, Im not sure if you could compare a governmental policy like cuba's with poor economic conditions...that exists in other 3rd world countries)... than the surrounding countries of the U.S.,....such as mexico, hati, and the other island countries that send boat loads of people from time to time.....
I havent been following this all that much anyway, ive been amazed that at work were there are latinos from the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico and Cuban's and that aside from the cubans the latinos Ive spoke briefly with concerning this surprised me with their answer---that they felt that the cubans in Miami didnt believe the law applied to them that they considered themselves a special class, and since America sent other illegals back to their countries the boy should go back too....Im still hashing it out, but I tend to believe the child needs to be with his father, on the other hand would we in this country send a child with his father if the courts thought it would not be in the childs best interest, abuse etc.,which would be involved in the childs living conditions, I think cuba qualifies as abuse--the children normally will be taken from their parents and taught agriculture (rasing sugar cane)in a collective farm. I have a concern that sending this child to cuba will allow castro to gain politically in a large way, the child can be a political pawn for castro for decades or until his brother replaces castro upon his death.
Interesting entanglements........fubsy.
Personally, I believe a dozen agents entering the house dressed in suits and overcoats would have been more appropriate. I would have knocked, then entered via warrant. The agents should have kept it low key- the scene of taking the child at gunpoint is unacceptable. The same goes with the scene of Elian being whisked away. I do not have a problem with the agents outside the house- there was a concern about the crowd, after all. It was a good idea to conduct the operation early in the morning- the crowd outside was smaller than had they waited until later in the day.
I feel that that the deployment of 151 DOJ agents in raid suits and body armor, armed with automatic weapons in a no knock raid against a private house containg 12 unarmed civilians, most of them women and children, clealy constitutes excessive force. If the Doj agents had succeded in knocking down all media representatives as they tried to do at the start of their attack. we would not know what actually happened.