Meditations on the kid.

L

LawDog

Staff Emeritus
To start off with, I admit to some queasy feelings about this whole mess.

Was a pre-dawn raid really necessary?

Well, it's a given that we won't ever get the complete tactical picture.

Or, are y'all going to believe a TacRep given to you via the breathless reporting of some plastic beauty queen, who couldn't do a threat analysis on a rabid wolverine?

Do I think the pre-dawn raid was justified? I don't know. I wasn't there, you weren't there.

Would I have done it differently? Again, I don't know. I, and no doubt others here, would like to think so, but we weren't there.

What I do know, is that this is simply a case of Interference with Child Custody. Albeit, a case on steroids. The child is back with his surviving parent. A place where, if he were any other child, we would all be demanding that he be in the first place.

Don't let the breathless testosterone reporting of CNN goad you into the gut-level, knee-jerk reaction that the media vultures are halfway expecting.

A riot, demonstration or advanced acts of violence related to this stupid, tired, idiotic case is exactly the thing that would please CNN and the rest of them the most.

Step back, take a deep breath, discuss the raid and the case rationally and calmly.

LawDog
 
Bottom line, Lawdog, I've never heard of the Feds being involved in a custody dispute. How about you?

More Federal encroachment. Soon the Federal Govt will decide most things for you. And we'll all wonder just how Washington got so powerful...........
 
Another name for this stunt might well be WACO 2, or perhaps RUBY RIDGE REVISITED. Justice triumphs??
 
Honest question, as in, not a statement in the form of a rhetorical question: Why didn't the Feds send two Spanish-speaking blue-haired old ladies (non-threatening) in a mini-van, to knock on the front door with whatever writ, warrant or other documentation is needed, and ASK that the boy be surrendered to their custody, then and there? Say about 10:30 AM? Does anyone think that the family and supporters would offer them physical violence? I have had dealings with Cuban-Americans, in Miami, and I don't that their sense of chivalry or machismo or whatever, would permit them to visit harm on relatively defenseless unarmed officers. Am I naive?
 
You're right on one point Lawdog. None of us were there. We don't know the whole situation. The whole situation be damned. The picture in my mind is of a little 6 year old boy, terrified out of his mind, being carried out by Reno's jack booted storm troopers. This is what I see, and I am angered to the point of rage.

First we had Waco and Ruby Ridge. Countless raids on gun owners by the BATF. Now a poor little boy that is being used by the Clinton Administration for political gain.

I am neutral when it comes to whether Elian should be with his father or his Miami relatives. That's a matter for the courts to decide.

What Janet Reno decided to do was, in my opinion, blatant child abuse, nothing more and nothing less. I think the matter was mishandled in the grossest manner possible.
At least her Gestapo didn't kill anyone this time. Thank God for that.

Should the relatives have turned Elian over? I think, yes. Should the government have acted in the manner they did. NO WAY!
Paul B.
 
This can not be considered a custody case. The boy was an illegal alien being held hostage against the orders of the united states government. I was not a case of custody, it was a case of illegally being in the United States. To all of you who are crying about the way the US government handled this issue: I say about damn time. The child was an illegal alien in our country--that is it plain and simple! The INS officials are constantly fighting this battle on the borders. Nobody cries or whimpers when illegal drug traffikers are busted or vanloads of illegal aliens are caught attempting to gain access to our country. How is this different!! What would you like for us to do next? Allow the kid to stay? Well then we would be hypocrites and have to open our borders to everyone. Where do we draw the line!? The kid belongs to his father...not the uncle! The majority of you whining have probably never served proudly in our countries armed forces. We have died protecting our borders so whiners like you can rant and rave with the freedom of speech you have not earned! We, the soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines have fought to give you this! You are just taking it all for granted. If you don't like this WONDERFUL country we live in, then pack your bags and GET THE HELL OUT! Go to Cuba, Russia or any place at all outside our borders. In about a week you will be crying to be let back in! You can only take advantage of the things you have. Once they are gone, you are S.O.L.! In my opinion, it is more of a shame how long was spent negotiating in the first place. Elian was basically being held hostage. Should have happened sooner!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Bottom line, Lawdog, I've never heard of the Feds being involved in a custody dispute. How about you?[/quote]

Think about it, Jack. The child is in the United States. His father is in Cuba. The family holding the child is in the United States. Sort of the Feds job, don't you think?

Alan, I didn't say that Justice triumphed, however, I do wonder how you draw a parallel between Ruby Ridge, Waco and the Elian Gonzalez case.

Hutch, what does chivalry and/or machismo demand be done to protect a child? Plus, all the elements of a mob were present, just needing one little spark to set it off. Who can predict what a mob will do?

Again, I'm not saying that they were right. I'm saying that we need to sit back and calm down before we start pounding our chests and venting.

LawDog
 
Exactly Lawdog. The military has always taought me to be prepared for the worst. They were simply prepared for the worst.
 
I'm sorry Lawdog, I don't agree. There were several more steps that could have been taken before it was necessary (if it ever would be) to ram the door and bust into the house with submachineguns.
They could have served a warrant to bring the kid into court on Monday morning. If the family shows up, you take the kid there. Some crying, but nothing too traumatic. If they don't show up, you send a couple INS agents backed up with a couple Federal Marshalls and say "Hand over the kid." If they don't, you leave...and the SWAT team can roll in if necessary.
These people were not given a chance to do this peacefully. This was nothing but Gestapo tactics from an administration that specializes in Gestapo tactics.
 
Rikwriter,

I like your scenario much better than what we've seen. Yet, I must admit, the raid happened only after negotiations broke down.

As LawDog notes, the entire incident is a conflict of value judgements. And we have no way of knowing what happened behind the scenes. This HAS been going on for months, since (?November?).

There surely is a lot we haven't been told....

(Yes, the pictures make me sick.)
 
The truth is in the middle.

I fail to see why the family did not take the offer to live all together in two side by side houses.

They seemed to glory in the hysteria and publicity of the moment and terribly exploited the child as in that video.

However, I would have served them an order to turn over the child at time definite. After that I would have supported the raid.

But once they turned down the offer, I would easily justify a raid with max necessary force.
 
So, uh... i was wondering... When do we start to send in the SWAT Team to collect children of child molesters? Especially unconvicted child molesters.

When do we send in the BATF team to collect the children of gun owners who choose to carry illegally?

When do we send in the BATF to collect the children of smokers?

Do any of you in Connecticuit think that the you may be in for this when the police come to confiscate your guns because your neighbor says you are dangerous?

This is undefensible, and it is the future of gun confiscation.

~USP
 
Dennis, I am sorry but "negotiations breaking down" STILL doesn't warrant sending in the SWAT team as the next alternative. There was still plenty of time and opportunity to resolve this peacefully...none of the steps I listed required negotiation. They only required patience...maybe only another 48 hours' worth of it.
 
Sorry Dennis, you are wrong!

"The negotiations broke down"...who says? That has now become a unilateral decision based solely upon one party's arbitrary time scale?
Let's not forget that the 11th Circuit Court just a couple days ago put a rein on the Executive/DOJ.... and those kids don't cotton to being defied. What we saw today was pure spoiled adolescent frustration...with frigging guns!
It is patently obvious that this present administration now deals with any civil dispute or uncooperation with its will with armed force and the threat of deadly violence.
Prior to this morning, has any violence been enacted by the Gonzalez family or supporters? Any death threats or physical injury? Any display or brandishing of firearms?
So, why today? Why not psyops? Why not wear them down? Take a week longer? Why does the Clinton administration go right to the guns?

Nope...gotta show everyone that Feds are supreme and no defiance allowed, no matter how peaceful. I know exactly where gun control should be focused...the government. Those clowns are more dangerous to anyone than I ever will be.

BTW...I've not stated my position on the root dispute. Heretofore, I was ambivalent.


Read my sig...its obvious you have forgotten its significance

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!



[This message has been edited by DC (edited April 22, 2000).]
 
I'm disgusted that anyone who's supposedly pro-RKBA would support this display of Nazi JBT Gestapo tactics. You should be ashamed.

I'm also sick of hearing how his Miami family 'abused' him and how he needs to be with his father. Balderdash.

Perhaps Castro will allow the father to visit the child in the reeducation camps, because that's probably where he'll be for the next 10 years.
 
My understanding of the law is that any cuban requesting to live here may do so. It's an exception to our immagration laws, written to get back at Castro. There is no age limit in this law. The net effect is if Elain requests it, he may stay in the U.S. If I remember correctly there is a news tape of Elain saying that he wanted to stay here. There is currently a court order that he may not leave the U.S until his custody case has been run through the courts.

All I want is that the letter of the law to be followed. Where I'm fuzzy on the law, and maybe someone can help me here, who has custody during the court hearings? Is it the guardian who has had custody for the past year? Or the father? Has the court even determined yet who is to have temporary custody? I don't believe that the president or Janet Reno has the power to determine that, only a judge with jursidiction can do that. Any answers here?



------------------
Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
 
Do you think that it is accidental that billclinton wants us disarmed??
Something else to think about: The HRT types do what they do because they enjoy it.
Rarely do I project myself into a situation except to put it into a perspective. That being said, I agree that two little old ladies could have walked out with Elian. Heck think one little old man could have pulled it off.
Obviously somebody lied about the guns. Is this really uncommon with clinton and reno?
Obviously reno did not negotiate in good faith. Her mind was made up.
She was quoted last week as saying that clinton wanted the child out now.
The raid had been a GO for some time .
I knew it would happen today. Last night I heard Dan Rather give an awkward explanation of Easter talking about God and the Son of God and how they were in a sense reunited on Easter.
What do you mean I'm stretching it?

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 
What on earth gave anyone the impression that I agreed with this SWAT
raid? My agreement with Rikwriter’s scenario? (Please read it!)

(The comment about negotiations breaking down was in one of the articles on
the raid.)

I thought “Yes, the pictures make me sick” explained my view

Frankly, I have avoided (until the raid) the ongoing prattle about Elian but
there are two sides to this story:
1) If I were the father, I would want my child.
2) By the same token, if my former wife died trying to get my child to
freedom (fleeing a failed totalitarian state), I would try to join my child rather
than force his return to such an environment.
-----

I don’t know what the 11th Circuit Court order included. If the feds acted in
defiance of a federal court order, the decision makers should be charged and
tried.
-----

As for not waiting and going through a series of escalating efforts, that could
have had tragic results.

Note that shortly after the JBTs left the scene, the crowd increased from 100
to 300. If the feds telegraphed exactly what they were going to do and when
they were going to do it, many more lives would have been in jeopardy.

There actually could have been armed resistance and we would have been
angry that the feds weren’t smart enough to avoid armed conflict.

None of us know what happened behind the scenes. What threats were made
by each side, etc.?

Why was the decision made to use force? It seems congruent with our
regime’s elitist, totalitarian thinking. With our current oligarchy, we are
offended by their decisions, but we should be happy that there was no long
list of casualties.
-----

DC,

Not only do I remember the meaning of your signature, I’ve been embroiled
in debate on other threads advocating our current watchers must be
replaced. I despise them, their methods, and their “tools”.
-----

All,
Scenarios such as this is what we get for not voting the buggers out of office.
Whether the regime was headed by Clinton or Bush is irrelevant. Have you
heard cries of outrage from ANY Presidential candidate? From any
government official? Where are the Republicans?

At best, they ALL will wait until they see which way the wind blows - then
they will act in *their* best interest, totally ignoring that they are supposed
to work in *our* best interest.

Until we return to Constitutional Law, such perversions will become more
prevalent. Remember that come November.

------------------
Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!
 
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