Caeser2001
New member
they did more than put bumper stickers on their cars and call themselves patriotic:barf:
McCain...Reinstitute the Draft?
- Thread starter Robert J McElwain
- Start date
they did more than put bumper stickers on their cars and call themselves patriotic:barf:
We had a much bigger military in the 80s without a draft. I worked with draftees in early 70s. I hope the draft will remain a last resort. It was a PITA working with them. Once volar got going and the drug tests weeded out the trash life became much better. We had if I remember right the 2nd and 3rd AD, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th ID. They are gone now, but existed without the draft. That's a lot of troops.
JuanCarlos
New member
Yeah, it's definitely reaching. I'd say there's a pretty good chance he didn't even catch that portion of what she said when he said he agreed. Odd that his campaign hasn't come out and clarified, but honestly I think that's the kind of thing that would just get it more coverage.
It's kind of silly, and it'll die all on its own.
The Meatman
New member
One issue I have with the draft, and to a lesser extent with the current military makeup (if a draft was instituted) is you end up with a lower class of recruit, and future NCO corp. I served from 88 to 93, and I clearly recall having some Vietnam Era NCO's I was forced to serve under. I hate to speak ill of any vets, but some of these guys didn't have the brains to pour **** out of a boot, yet they were in charge of me, and many others like me who were looking to a broader future beyond the service (I got out when Clinton took office and instituted "Don't ask, Don't Tell.") It's something akin to the old union "Seniority" rules. You end up weeding out people who are smart enough to realize they work for fools, and the fools hang around because it's "3 hots and a cot."
I notice you said "some of". I am sure glad that did not include me. I have a BA and MA and had them while I was a viet nam era nco. I taught school for 10 yeas after I retired. Some of the E1-E4s I ran into were not that swift either. Generalizations are not the best way to go.
Stagger Lee
New member
A draft could be good, if only because it would make some of the chairborne rangers on the internet forums actually pay their dues instead of just pretending that it's still 1776 and trying to channel Thomas Jefferson all day.
Time to slim down and toughen up, kiddies...your turn in the barrel may be coming soon.
Time to slim down and toughen up, kiddies...your turn in the barrel may be coming soon.
I'm in favor of reinstituting the draft if only because it would force Americans to take war more seriously. No more "The Marine Corps is at war; America is at the mall". If a war isn't important enough for your child to fight, it isn't important enough for anyone's child to fight. If we were forced to view all wars in this light, we might decide that there hasn't been a war worth fighting since WWII.
JuanCarlos
New member
It would be nice if a guy could volunteer to be prepared to defend his country if need be (and even with a draft you'll always need a core of trained soldiers as well) without automatically being assumed as having volunteered to fight in whatever nation-building endeavors become politically acceptable this decade. It's not like just because we volunteered to serve our country in general suddenly we're excited about whatever half-cocked conflict you want to shove us into.
At the same time, given how much support there was for a war in Iraq back in '03, I don't know that it would have really made much difference. You might have seen a substantial number of politicians vote/come out against it, but I got dollars to pesos that we'd still have invaded.
I will also suggest that if we were sending conscripts to play bomb magnet for a year on Route Trans Am (it's a short stretch of road, but a fun one, trust me) that we'd probably have pulled out and left the Iraqis to their own devices by now. We'd probably have pulled out about halfway through '05. When it's somebody else's kid, a majority of Americans are more than able to block it out. When it could be yours, it starts to compete seriously with the economy for top issue.
Thinking about it, I'm not entirely sure that an invasion of Iraq and destruction of their government and infrastructure followed by leaving them to swing in the wind (which is one likely outcome that I see from a draft, give the above) is preferable to what we have going on now. Thinking that the presence of a draft will be enough to convince the public to avoid stupid wars is probably giving the public far too much credit.
I'll agree that we really haven't seen much in the way of a war worth fighting since WWII (Korea, maybe? Afghanistan?), but as much as I've been a proponent of this idea (draft as war-deterrent) I've kind of come around to the fact that our hindsight is a lot better than our foresight, and this prescription wouldn't get us anywhere near 20/20.
The Meatman
New member
Mushoot, the point I was trying to make was those same E1-E4's you ran into while serving were the one's who were E-7/8 when I was serving. You are right though, generalizations aren't the best way to go, and that's why I also included the next generation of NCO's if the draft came back into being....
Juan Carlos, I couldn't agree more with your statement about the current American Serviceman, and the politicos who control our armed forces.
Juan Carlos, I couldn't agree more with your statement about the current American Serviceman, and the politicos who control our armed forces.
Allot of people here are always pro-war, pro-violence, pro-aggression.
Unless the people wanting it all are going to be on the front lines of the fight, they really shouldn't be trying to force others into it.
I respect the people who served in the military, but its not something I would ever wish to do or have my children ever do.
Violence should be taken as a last resort, not the first and pride should be removed from the equation.
Unless the people wanting it all are going to be on the front lines of the fight, they really shouldn't be trying to force others into it.
I respect the people who served in the military, but its not something I would ever wish to do or have my children ever do.
Violence should be taken as a last resort, not the first and pride should be removed from the equation.
Well who proposed to create buffer states around Russia with nuke capabilities with a military organization? We promised that we would not do that and what did we do? Supported Islamic fundamentalism in Dagestan, Chechnya, Georgia, Albania, Macedona. Then we made NATO members of Latvia, Lithuania and Poland. While Russia was weak we ignored Russia and the UN and bombed Serbia for 72 days. All of this was under Clinton. Bush started with the continuing ceding territory from Serbia and began courting (and arming) the Ukraine and Georgia. Are you starting to see a trend here? Ever read Brzezinski? You should.
Just the mention of flights to Cuba with bombers got everyone's panties in knot. So how is it okay to surround Iran and Russia but it's not okay for reciprocal behavior? We/You cannot have it both ways. Russia is NOT militarily weak and she is far more trusted than the US nowadays. Now back to naked, unbridled aggression:
Then there is poor Iraq, and Afghanistan and Pakistan and Lebanon and Syria and now sabre-rattling at Iran. When does this SH%$% end?!
Ignoramuses like this current admin and the pliant Congress and the woefully misguided public-at-large will allow nuclear blasts over our cities.
To HADES with Saakshvili and to HADES with the Ukraine and the HADES with Poland. Nothing agains the peoples of these nations but to Hades with their leadership which apparently is as stupid as our own.
I see no reason to fight the nation of all nations we should be allies with. They are also no "little brown developing nation" just in case you didn't notice. They are loaded, well, for bear and there is not a damned thing you, I or Congress or Bush can do about stupid little Georgia - which we & Israel armed and trained over the last five years all for a Pipeline (actually, two).
We should DEFEND SELF and SELF Only. I'd not lift a finger to aid these bickering nations. And I surely would not **** on the UN if they were ablaze. Same with NATO. Yet being Black I'd risk all to help an American even if I suspected he was a Klansman. That's how strong I feel about MY nation. There is no need for Americans to bleed for some New World Order (yes, Saakshvili said that). He's a dupe and we're fools.
I served in the US Army from 1959 through 1979 and never saw the awful NCOs that you talk about. Also worked very closely with the US Army in the middle east for many years; including the runup to Desert Storm, Desert Storm and afterwards. Again I never saw those awful NCOs.
Not trying to put anyone down here but that is the problem we face for the past 35-40 years the idea of serving in any capacity has been dropped from our system its in public schools, at the college level many do not want the military on campus and as a nation its wrong to want someone to do our fighting. We have a become a nation of 911 from lighting a furnace to changing a tire we want someone to do the dirty work.
I served with draftees some were natural leaders who remained in service as in all things good and bad however in Vietnam there was a high percentage of volunteers. The military was not meant to run as a civil service unit and having been connected several years with the military I see the all volunteer
service has its faults but most of its leaders won't stand and make any statements on the problems due to political reasons.
As I stated before we must decide and soon, world power or remain neutral in most conflicts,but if you don't want to serve do not be a hawk.
Two observations about a draft in no particular order
First, opposition to the Vietnam was did not jell until the draft kicked in. There is something about Biff and Buffy having to put it on the line that gets Mommie and Poppie to think in terms of larger issues. If we'd had a draft in place in 2003, would we have the currently configured war on terror (whatever that means)?
Second, military brass and civilian handlers are all a-twitter over how efficient our military is. Why the tooth-to-tail ratio is as low as it has ever been. Guess that means we are smarter and more efficient. Not necessarily. A significant portion of the tail has been outsourced to civilian contractors who do things like run messhalls; things the military used to do in years past. Are we really saving money in substituting contractors for draftees or are we merely dampening dissent? Something can be said for the need of technically oriented and motivated manpower. However, not every job in the military has those requirements. Maybe, just maybe a draft is not a daft idea.
First, opposition to the Vietnam was did not jell until the draft kicked in. There is something about Biff and Buffy having to put it on the line that gets Mommie and Poppie to think in terms of larger issues. If we'd had a draft in place in 2003, would we have the currently configured war on terror (whatever that means)?
Second, military brass and civilian handlers are all a-twitter over how efficient our military is. Why the tooth-to-tail ratio is as low as it has ever been. Guess that means we are smarter and more efficient. Not necessarily. A significant portion of the tail has been outsourced to civilian contractors who do things like run messhalls; things the military used to do in years past. Are we really saving money in substituting contractors for draftees or are we merely dampening dissent? Something can be said for the need of technically oriented and motivated manpower. However, not every job in the military has those requirements. Maybe, just maybe a draft is not a daft idea.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Now McCain is going to reinstate the draft? Remember how around 2004 (right before the election), all the Internet chatter was that Bush was going to reinstate the draft; but then when you actually looked at the legislation it was sponsored by guys like Rep. Chuck Rangel (D-NY) and nobody in the Bush administration even proposed it or wanted it?
I guess somebody thinks that this is still a viable play for the 2008 election.
I guess somebody thinks that this is still a viable play for the 2008 election.
I've got a little different take on conscription. I believe that this country had the greatest system for on-the-job training in the world. It forced young men to commit to a future, whether to go get a college education, volunteer for the service of their choice, or allow the draft to choose for them. Once on active duty, these people were taught history (customs and courtesies of the service), respect for authority, responsibility (get to work on time and get the job done right) and discipline (follow orders from superiors). The system also gave everyone a shared experience that minimized the differences due to race and/or culture. I can't tell you how many times other veterans and I have told the stories about Drill Instructors in basic. This helped to form a common bond between us all regardless of the branch served. I think if conscription were to be reinstated it would reduce the "dash-American" mindset so common today and bring us back to being just "Americans, and damned proud of it!."
Who in the world would be afraid of a draft? An unpatriotic person who wants the freedoms and privilege of American life without giving a little sweat and blood for it? People who are perfectly content to live off of the devotion and sacrifice of others?
I personally think every citizen upon reaching adulthood should serve. We would not have the nation of lazy, fat, useless, disrespectful, welfare bum trash that we do today.
With military training and discipline taught to every citizen, just like math and history, it would only make more self confident, dedicated people. I have not known a single person who has ever served and not become a better person for it. The pride, self respect and disciple alone are worth it.
How could it not benefit a young person to learn these skills and values? How could it not make them more fit, capable, and self reliant?
Now I'm not talking about gearing up a war machine. I am speaking purely of the personal benefits stated above. How could the things learned not be of superior value to young people? Would be have less problems with gangs and such if the young men had direction and discipline? If they were given a sense of duty and honor? Given something to be truly proud of?
I personally think every citizen upon reaching adulthood should serve. We would not have the nation of lazy, fat, useless, disrespectful, welfare bum trash that we do today.
With military training and discipline taught to every citizen, just like math and history, it would only make more self confident, dedicated people. I have not known a single person who has ever served and not become a better person for it. The pride, self respect and disciple alone are worth it.
How could it not benefit a young person to learn these skills and values? How could it not make them more fit, capable, and self reliant?
Now I'm not talking about gearing up a war machine. I am speaking purely of the personal benefits stated above. How could the things learned not be of superior value to young people? Would be have less problems with gangs and such if the young men had direction and discipline? If they were given a sense of duty and honor? Given something to be truly proud of?